The Technical Advisor for Silicon Valley on HBO: Ed McManus

Okay, so today we have Ed McManis. He was a technical adviser for Silicon Valley, uh, on HBO season 3. Um, so Ed, what's your background?

Okay, so, uh, I was a technical co-founder of a Y Combinator startup called Yard Sale. Um, and, uh, we launched two products; both were marketplaces for iPhone. Um, so similar to, uh, Craigslist for iPhone. Um, the first product was called Yard Sale and the second product was, uh, Phobo. And, um, we sold the company in 2015. Uh, and, uh, yeah, that's that.

Back and somehow you became a technical adviser for comedy, so okay, um, how'd that happen?

Uh, yeah, I mean, it was so weird. I, like, it just felt a lot like luck. Um, so the sort of story here is, you know, we were cranking hard on our startup for four years. Um, sold it in 2015. Um, uh, and the acquisition, it was kind of, um, mostly just to sort of do right by our investors, return as much as we could. Um, uh, but it was not like, you know, a phenomenal outcome for the company. Um, uh, but all of our, uh, investors had sort of like been aware that we were sort of like looking for our next thing. Um, and it just, uh, just happened that, uh, randomly someone from HBO reached out to Greylock, who is one of our, uh, investors, um, and asked them the question like, “Hey, we're trying to put together a sort of like this team of superstars from the tech world.”

Okay, um, uh, who would you go after?

Um, and both my co-founder and I were on a list of names that Greylock sent back. Okay, um, uh, and yeah, from there, I think it was, you know, just a matter of being available. Um, it was vaguely unemployed, sort of funny.

Right, right. Um, uh, and I mean, it was kind of a crazy story because they sent us an email and I've been a huge fan of the show for a really long time. Um, and as soon as we got that, it just like was apparent to me this is a drop everything and make this happen kind of opportunity.

Um, so, uh, they flew us in for an interview. Um, it was kind of weird because it actually wasn't really an interview; it was just like our first day at work, but we didn't know this.

Right, so you and your co-founder were there?

So we actually went on separate days, but we both had a similar kind of experience. I flew in, uh, and I grabbed lunch with, with one of the other technical advisers from the show. Um, and he's like, “Okay, you're all set for your interview.” Um, so he drove me over to the studio lot, uh, dropped me off, um, and I showed up at the Silicon Valley office and I, you know, told them like, “Hey, I'm here for the interview” and no one knew what I was talking about.

Okay, so I told them who I was and they're like, “Oh, okay, I think we know where you're supposed to go.” And so they led me into the writers' room.

Did you just go home?

So I just, I, I just walked out. Yeah, I, I, I, uh, flew back up to San Francisco, uh, got a call that night and they said like, “Hey, it, it went great! We’d like for you to join.” Uh, and they wanted me to start that Monday. This is on a Friday that I interviewed, of course.

Um, so I had, uh, one weekend to sell everything. So I just like had a sidewalk sale, uh, got one of my friends to help me out and like sold about 80% of the stuff that I owned, um, just to like really commit to this and, uh, drove down to Los Angeles on, on Sunday night.

Uh, I got in at like 3:00 in the morning or something on, on Monday and had to show up at 9:00 the next morning.

Okay, um, for like my first, uh, full day of work.

Okay, so like just drop us into the context. What's happening in the show at the beginning of season 3?

Yeah, so at this point, I think like the first maybe two episodes had been written. It was still very early in, in, in the development of the season. Um, uh, but they had out maybe for like the first five or so episodes and then beyond that, it was kind of like no one really knew where the season was going to go.

Okay, um, uh, so yeah, when I showed up, I mean it was like I was just trying to find my footing. Like, it's, it's just very, it like to be honest, it was hard. It was really hard because I've never done anything in entertainment. I've never worked with people like this before.

Um, everyone there was just like off the charts brilliant.

Um, were they technical at all?

So almost everyone in the room had a very solid understanding of how startups work. Um, not technical though in the sense that like they couldn't, you know, write code. Um, uh, but one of the things I was surprised by was how well the writers sort of understood Silicon Valley and just the material they were covering.

Um, uh, I mean, sort of like a common theme of my time in the show was actually that like I didn't have to do a whole lot of correction; like, okay, they kind of got it. So, um, before every season, they actually come up to San Francisco for I think like a week or two weeks and meet with a bunch of startups.

So they, they like every writer goes through this kind of like, um, uh, you know, crash course to get up to speed. Um, uh, and so by the time that they actually start working on the season, they have like a pretty good understanding of sort of how, you know, how things work and what, what life in startups is actually like.

And so then given that, like, where do you find yourself providing value every day at the show?

Yeah, um, so for the most part, it was, you know, like, like I said, it was kind of, um, the job was explained to me like it’s almost like being a lifeguard, right? So, like, you kind of sit on the sidelines for a bit. Um, when you see something going wrong, that's when you like you actually, uh, uh, say something.

So, um, uh, you know, I was on hand to answer any questions and, uh, that kind of stuff. Um, but at the same time, I wanted to recognize that I'm not like a comedy person; like that is, like that could not be further from my skill set.

So, um, I tried to kind of, like not, like pitch jokes or do anything like that. Like I just recognize that that's not, you know, that's that's not what I'm good at.

So, um, uh, instead I was thinking through sort of like the technical details. Um, uh, sort of like the strategy; like, given where the, the company was at that point in time, like what are the kind of the kinds of things that they're going to try and do?

Um, and so were there points where you felt that like they were going off course and you had to correct it?

Yeah, I mean there definitely were times where that would happen. Um, uh, but like nothing major, right? Like I don't think, um, there were no, there were no like, like huge course corrections as a result of, of my input.

Um, there were definitely some tweaks here and there, but for the most part, if the writers wanted to do something, we could find sort of a technical explanation to justify, okay, them doing that.

Right, and like, I mean that's kind of true. Like I, I feel like that's not super, um, surprising, right? Like these guys are, you know, fantastic programmers; supposedly they can do whatever they want. Like we can, we can find a justification for almost any kind of like story point.

Um, uh, so the way it would work is they would, they would come up with these scripts and, uh, we would, uh, uh, uh so they, sorry, they would, the first step of the process was to sort of come up with these outlines.

Um, uh, and from there like they'd hand it off to a single writer who'd go off and turn it into an actual script. Um, uh, and they would more or less just leave blank spots.

Yeah.

And so, uh, the bulk of my job at first was just kind of like filling in the blanks.

Okay, yeah.

It was just, yeah, and, and, um, it's like I thought that that was going to be easy but it's actually, it's it's fairly, it's, it's not super easy because like you have to come up with a dialogue that it's like, okay, you have two lines to explain sort of the technical details of what's going on here; you can't get into the technical details, so you have to like keep it like very, like, like fairly vague, right?

Um, and that was, that was tough. Like, I mean you can't get into the details because folks are essentially like they're not going to understand or you don't have enough like words to fit in or like...

I mean, it's a combination of both, right? Even if we could dedicate 30 minutes to like just a technical talking compression, no one would, no one would watch it; that's not why people like are interested in the show.

So, um, you know, like the, the tech is there to serve the story. It's like, um, uh, you know, and, and I think that's the right way to do it; like the technical details, like another five years are not going to be super important.

Like, um, uh, uh, like the, the stuff that people are going to relate to, it's, you know, it's like the, it's the, the characters, it's sort of like their own motivations, like the emotions, that kind of stuff.

And so what examples did you fill in for? Like, what gaps did you have to fill?

Uh, I mean anytime like one of the characters says anything technical, that was something that that either I wrote or reviewed.

Um, so for example, if it was something relating to compression, sometimes like if it were something that were really specific to an expertise, um, like I'm not a compression guy, but we have, uh, folks who are working with the show who are.

So, um, in that case, we would send that out to them, um, get their feedback, uh, and then sort of like try and bring everything together to, to make it work for the scene.

Okay, and so then like going back then, um, can you talk a little bit about the entire premise of Pied Piper?

Like, is that possible? Is the compression algorithm they tried to do at the end of season 1 a thing?

Like, surprisingly, yes.

Um, so, so when I, okay, so there's a couple of pieces here, but like one is that when I first showed up, I was like this technology is too good, right?

Like, like if this were a real thing, Pied Piper would never fail; like, there's no chance, right? Like, they could not fail.

And so the challenge is like, how do you like make them fail like at the end of every episode?

And so like, you know, every episode arc is kind of like things look great; it's kind of like the, um, we actually, it's almost like the anti-Entourage, right?

Like that’s, uh, uh, like how, how some of them were thinking about the show where like Entourage is things like start off horrible and then by the end of the episode they’re fantastic, right? Silicon Valley is the opposite.

Silicon Valley is like things seem like they're going so great, like everyone's like on track to being a billionaire, and by the end of the episode, like never, the sky is falling.

So, um, uh, the challenge was to take this technology that's like, like can't lose and like turn it into something that like, you know, like they, they keep stumbling over.

So, um, so that, that was really tricky.

Um, and then, uh, uh, what was the, oh, the algorithm at the end of season one?

Yeah, the surprising thing with middle out is that like there is actually technical background for it and, and, uh, like, like it is actually the result of a lot of, uh, sort of machine learning developments, um, applied to compression.

Um, so the, uh, sort of like the, the theory behind the tech like is actually like, it's plausible; like this is a, this is a piece of software that could exist.

Um, uh, most likely it would not have the same kind of like characteristics that middle out does in the show.

Um, it's great for streaming; it's lossless, um, like it has like all these performance characteristics which, uh, are like very difficult to achieve in the real world.

Okay, so like if this thing existed in the real world, it'd be like no question absolute breakthrough.

But wait, why wouldn't it exist? What are the issues there?

It just, because, well, it would, it would just be a scientific breakthrough for something like, like middle out to exist.

Okay, gotcha. That's what it comes down to.

Okay, gotcha. Um, so one of the things that I was wondering is like oftentimes we find at least around YC that, you know, like Google or Hulu isn't going to immediately replicate whatever you're working on.

Did you ever bring that up that like the startup versus giant company is like maybe not the most common thing to happen in Silicon Valley?

It does happen, right? And, and I think it happened more in the past.

So a lot of the knowledge that the team is drawing on is actually kind of from the dot-com boom, like so like in the '90s.

So, imagine Hulu's actually Microsoft, right?

Um, Microsoft was like this significant threat. If Microsoft said they were coming after your market, like watch out, right?

So maybe a better comparison today would be like Facebook, right?

Um, Google, like we, we all kind of like have like all of my experience is with Google being sort of the dominant company and those guys are like just so nice.

Like, like that's something that's new, right? Like that didn't used to be the case.

Um, so, so now I think it's, it's kind of like plausible that we can say like, oh well, the big company is not going to go after, you know, like this small startup.

But like, I think that's a new thing and maybe not going to be the case for much longer.

Like, you know, like Facebook for example is getting a little bit more, uh, uh, aggressive going after smaller spaces and so, um, yeah, I think that that is like a legitimate concern.

Fair enough. I mean it sets up the story really well and yeah, if nothing else, and it's good for, yeah, it's good for driving the story forward.

Okay, were there any, um, were there any things left on the cutting room floor that you were really excited about that just got pulled from the show?

So, uh, yeah, actually there were, uh, I think like one or two episodes at the end of the season.

Um, so like episode, I think like, like uh, I want to say episode nine or something, um, where the plan was actually to go to Eper.

Um, so Epalé is kind of like burning man in the Delta, uh, here in Northern California.

Yeah, I was on a boat that sank there.

That's awesome.

Um, and, uh, like it, it, it sounded like it was going to be incredible.

Um, and, uh, that actually got cut, uh, more for production reasons than for, uh, you know, for like technical reasons.

Um, uh, but that left the, the show with this hole in the season and so, uh, there was like this mad dash at the, uh, end of the, the sort of writing period to fill it in with like that, like two or three new episodes, which is like incredibly difficult.

So what episodes were those?

So was that like the luau thing or...

Yeah, it, it starts there. I think, uh, I think the, the, the luau is maybe like episode seven or something.

Uh, uh, but it was, it was all around the, the beta launch. Um, and so like what we were left with is this like this, this whole of a couple of episodes at the end of the season and like the challenge is like, okay, so like we're kind of screwed here, right?

Like, like what can we do? And, uh, like I feel like if, if I pointed to any episodes that I sort of like added the most to, it would be those three.

Okay, um, uh, they ended up pulling directly from our experience, uh, with, with Yard Sale, um, launching a beta and sort of like not being totally sure at first like whether this thing is working or not, um, and getting a really strong like positive signal early and then, you know, like four to six months in you're looking at the numbers and you're thinking like maybe this thing's not, not as strong as we thought.

Yeah, and were you guys, uh, so if I remember correctly that's also when the numbers are being faked, right?

So that, yeah, that happened, uh, a little bit more towards the end. That's like, things were getting so dire, uh, you know, they were about to run out of money, uh, that like, uh, uh, they go off and start faking some numbers.

Oh, that originally was going to be sort of a plot around growth hacking and then it like just, like edged its way into fraud.

Yeah, but there was like this whole fascination around growth hacking and buying users and that kind of stuff.

Um, and of course, like, you know, take yourself back to five years ago in the startup world, four, four or five years ago, like growth hacking was like, like this new hot thing; like it, it seemed like a legitimate way to sort of like get your product to product market fit.

Um, so it was like super alluring, and then it kind of like entered this kind of like this gray hat world and just got gradually worse and worse.

So great, yeah, and so the show ended up being kind of like a reflection of, like sort of like where that was, where that was going.

Um, because I mean like, yeah, there, there, there is definitely legitimate and sort of like bad, like, like growth hacking, right?

And then were there moments like, you know, when you think about like growth hacking in the industry or whatever, they're often like prominent figures.

Um, were you ever asked to like put someone on the spot and it like felt like too on the nose, like making fun of them directly, or is that just kind of like all fair?

Yeah, we have a reference to Theos, uh, in the show, um, but that was kind of like, you know, it was, it was so, it was like very common knowledge, uh, at that point. I think that that like we, the show would not go after anyone, um, unless it were sort of like already kind of like a big story.

Yeah, um, uh, a lot of what the writers end up using, uh, uh, is, is you know, stuff that gets pulled from the headlines, really. It's, you know, like real stories that they just sort of like reshape to, to kind of fit the situation that the, uh, Pied Piper guys are in.

Because that's what I always wondered, right? Like it always feels like not to say that it's like, uh, basic, but it is like popular culture, Silicon Valley, right?

And so were there moments where you were trying to like push it to be like more like ephemeral?

I mean, aisle is actually a really good example, but, um, were there other like more like fringe things people were trying to put in that folks would be like, “I don't know about this,” and then take it out?

If anything, I wanted more of that stuff in the show.

Um, so like one of the, I remember watching like season one and season two and thinking like, why are these guys building, you know, like their own servers? This doesn’t make sense; no one in the startup world does this.

And it felt really inauthentic to me, and so like, you know, season 3 comes around, I'm like finally in a position to do something about this, and one of the things that I was, you know, like I was like we have to get the guys to move to AWS, okay?

Um, at the very least, right? Like I think that, like if we could have gotten them to Heroku, that would have been even better.

That's great, but, but there was, uh, like the audience for Silicon Valley is interesting, right? Because it's not all startup people, but there are a lot of technical people who are sort of like really in, like into it.

Um, and, uh, uh, so like a lot of the technical folks who watch, they're not, they're, they're like maybe sort of like not on like the, you know, like the bleeding edge of, of kind of like, uh, trends that are like, you know, catching on in the startup world.

Um, for startups, like if you're not building on AWS, like you're really behind, it doesn't make sense.

Yeah, um, uh, you know, in and so watching the show as someone who had like actually done a startup, like that was something that didn't sit well with me.

Um, so, so like, uh, uh, yeah, got them to, to, to move to AWS. Had to make a case for that.

Great, and like we expected a lot of push back from like developers watching the show saying like, “Oh, like you should, like they would never move to AWS; like they want control over their own servers,” like whatever those complaints might be.

Um, uh, and it was fine; I, I think like no one, no one really complains, so like the timing ended up being good.

That's so, so what about like all those other elements where like the show touches the real world, right? So like, you know, we talked before we were starting the interview about you doing like things that were like off-screen elements that weren't writing.

Like when do those things come into play and like where did, what did you work on in particular?

Yeah, I mean, so if you watch any episode, just pay attention to the stuff in the background because like the show is designed to be, uh, possible; like, like you can freeze frame anything and like look at the documents for example in their hands or like the whiteboards in the background.

Okay, uh, all of that stuff is like me, uh, uh, and or like, you know, uh, some of the, uh, other consultants working on that, just like writing on post-it notes.

And yeah, right, exactly.

Um, like the, the scrum board is a good example of that; like every post it has something that, you know, like we had to like sit down and spend time thinking about.

Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, I like I both love and hate, uh, uh, the process of making those whiteboards.

Um, there were times where like walking the cast through sort of like, like there's one scene in particular, uh, during the user feedback session, um, where, uh, Richard gets up and starts drawing some stuff on a whiteboard.

So like I had to sort of walk him through each of those pieces of like, okay, this is what this, you know, this, uh, graphic here means and like that kind of stuff.

Um, and that was awesome.

Um, there was another time where we had some code displayed on a projector, um, and like I got to walk Mike through like what this code actually did.

Um, uh, I think in the second episode, we hid an Easter egg, uh, in, uh, some C code, okay, that we like had just sort of like, like flash on screen for like a second.

Okay, and people are pausing it?

Yeah, exactly, pausing it, copying it over and actually compiling it.

Um, and it was kind of cool; I wrote like a really simple, uh, uh, compression algorithm.

Okay, um, like it's hard to even call it a compression algorithm, but like, uh, took this, this character string, um, and you could, you could decompress it, expand it into a larger string, uh, which just got, uh, printed to the console.

Okay, um, I can't remember what, what message we settled on, but, um, but someone ran it?

Yeah, yeah, like it ended up being a big post on Reddit.

Amazing.

It was just like those attention, that attention to detail. Was that code online anywhere? Like were you guys on GitHub doing all that stuff?

Or so, yeah, so it, it's online now; it wasn't, it wasn't originally.

Okay, and so the show has not done a ton of like crossover into the real world.

Um, last season we had, uh, uh, this character Winnie, um, uh, and I actually, I created a GitHub profile for, uh, playback purposes, right?

So just like we wanted an authentic looking GitHub profile; the best way to do that is just to make a GitHub profile for that person.

So, um, uh, so I made one for Winnie, um, and we had to populate it both with a fake commit history, uh, and also with, uh, like projects that, you know, she would have pushed to.

Um, uh, so set all this up, uh, got the, the screenshots and the playback, uh, finished, um, then I forgot to delete the account.

And so as soon as it aired people were, you know, like searching on, on, on GitHub for this, this, uh, for, for this character's username and so she showed up, and so it ended up going viral on, on Reddit.

And, uh, um, I was just like instantly flooded with with pull requests and, uh, like it was a really kind of awesome experience and it was like one of the first times that the show like really crossed into the real world in like an authentic way because it was accidental.

Yeah, um, but it was, it was very cool to see.

Were there ever any moments where you were actually thinking about like building some kind of software thing that would like overlap or was that just never, never crossing the mind of the show?

Yeah, there, there, uh, there’s one, um, uh, idea in particular.

Um, I was working on an audio project at the time and realized that like we could, um, pretty easily sort of encode, uh, like text, uh, in an audio file.

Um, and so, uh, one of the, the pitches in the writer room was actually to have a character who would sort of like play a little clip of audio for like, you know, some, uh, some fantasy app that he was he was working on.

And, uh, anyone with the corresponding, uh, uh, uh app could actually sort of decode the audio and it'd be like, you know, a secret message that we could, we could send out.

Yeah, exactly, a little Easter egg that we could send out to all the viewers.

That's amazing.

And then what about the people like being introduced in the show, the other characters?

Like, do you, a startup guy for the show?

Um, like are you trying to like pull out those characters to throw them in or do they never even ask you for that kind of thing?

All of that, like, like very little of that comes out of like a technical need.

Um, so it's almost exclusively just for, you know, story purposes of, of like, like moving things forward.

Um, and so, uh, you know, there's an opportunity to provide some input and say like, well, this is what that person might work on and that would be a good example of like a blank left in the script, right?

So like someone's title. Um, and so like even, even the small things like that which are not necessarily like, it's not code, right? Like it's not, it's not like, like related to, to programming.

Um, but it is a technical detail and so like you can give them a title for example that's kind of like tailored to the startup world.

Okay, um, and so that was, you know, like that's, that's a good example of the kind of thing that...

Right.

Okay, but you don't have to like predict the future and like bring people in and...

Okay, that makes sense.

Um, so I know this is like a very obscure kind of job, but if someone who was in the startup world wanted to get into it, right, how would they get into it and then how do they get good at it?

It's, yeah, it's, it's a tough one to answer, right? Because like this isn't a real job; like, like this doesn't exist in the way that like you can't apply to be like a technical consultant really.

Like, um, you kind of like lock into it a little bit and, um, uh, there are, I guess I can think of three different routes, like to sort of like get into a position like this.

Um, the first two are like not very reliable. The first, uh, is just like you kind of be someone in, in my position, um, uh, who just like worked really hard at startups, right?

Um, uh, and like I never thought that this would lead to sort of like something in entertainment, uh, like in the entertainment world, but you know, it, it, it did.

Um, uh, the second is to be an expert in like some specific field, which like also like at no point will you be doing that so that you can get, you know, like to work on a show.

The third, uh, I think is kind of like the best route and that's to work at like an agency or, uh, some kind of organization that also works with, um, uh, production companies.

Um, uh, and the, uh, guy who brought me on board, Jonathan Dotan, uh, who is sort of like the, the main, uh, consultant for the first two seasons, um, that was kind of his path in.

Um, uh, and for that, you know, like you kind of just be on the lookout for promising scripts, um, and then try and jump on them, uh, uh, when you can, and that, the benefit of that is that you get in early.

Um, uh, and you know, you can, you can stick with the show for a long time.

Are you dabbling with other shows at this point?

No, I mean, it was like a real big, uh, um, I had a hard time figuring out whether or not this is something I wanted to continue doing, um, because like on the one hand, it was an incredible experience, um, on the other I know that my sort of like position is up here in San Francisco, like working on startups, like doing actual startup stuff, not sort of like the pretend...

Yeah, exactly.

And, um, so after after this last season, I just felt like I like I needed to come back.

Um, uh, yeah, I don't know; like it was definitely, I, I was kind of 50/50 on it for a while, but just felt like, you know, like I had given them all my stories; like if I went back for another season, it would be like I don't know what to tell you at this point.

You haven't worked on a video chat app, right?

Right, right, yeah.

And so who do, um, who do you think is doing this particularly well?

Like what other shows are like really technical and in an interesting way that's like somewhat plausible?

Right, there's a couple of shows.

So there's two shows I'm watching right now that I'm like obsessed with. One is Mr. Robot, and, uh, even when I was on Silicon Valley, I kind of said like this is the gold standard for both playback and technical accuracy.

Um, uh, they really nailed it.

So like, uh, you know, the technical details are, are sound. Um, uh, sort of like the technical story actually plays a pretty big role in the show as a whole.

Um, uh, and, and yeah, like everything about it feels, feels good.

Um, the second show I'm watching is Halt and Catch Fire, uh, which I actually just started watching like a month ago and it's fantastic.

It's, it's like, it's so good.

Um, and the thing is that like it, it takes place in the early 80s, so, uh, you know, the tech that they're talking about, it's not something I'm familiar with, and I, I imagine that like, like there's like only a couple dozen people, uh, in the world who like really will pay attention to watching the show at the same time.

So, you know, maybe like in some sense, like it's almost like an easier job, but, uh, um, yeah, those two shows in particular I think are, are, uh, really great.

Um, every new show that comes out on the scene though is like has a really high bar.

Yeah, um, so, you know, I don't know if Silicon Valley is just kind of like leading the way here.

Um, uh, but it seems to be like a, a real strong trend that, uh, especially as like production budgets go up.

Um, another big, big thing is that like a, uh, season orders are going down, right?

So like now instead of like producing 20 episodes a season, they're only doing 10, um, which just means the quality of every episode is so high, um, that they can, you know, afford to take the time to reach out to the consultants they need to like really get the details right.

Yeah, I'm curious to see if like, you know, given Amazon and Netflix spending so like billions of dollars on new programming if they're just going to throw a ton of technical people into like even the science fiction shows like because it seems like it's tremendous value-add, um, and there's so many nerds to like who want to do this.

Um, has it like gotten you excited about working in comedy or anything or doing comedy?

So I felt like a part of my brain was getting exercised that like had just, you know, like been dormant for like the six years of like doing a startup.

So, um, like it was, it was great.

Um, uh, I don't know if like, I do not think I have a career of, uh, comedy ahead of me; like definitely not.

Uh, uh, but like, yeah, it was still, you know, just an incredible experience.

That's awesome, dude.

Okay, so what's next for you?

I don't know, a startup I think.

Um, uh, like it ended up being a really cathartic experience working on the show.

Um, and, uh, the last three episodes of, of season 3 were like such a bummer.

Like there's one scene where like Richard is just lying in the bathtub and it seems like everything's gone wrong.

And like I remember really associating with that and just thinking like, “Oh man!” and like I've been in that, I've been in that place, you know?

Um, uh, so there were definitely like a year or two years where like after doing my, my startup, like, you know, didn't want to write code again.

Um, and this was like this is like one step in the process for sort of like getting getting back into it.

Um, and, uh, uh, yeah now I'm, you know, pretty, pretty stoked to jump into something again, feel energized and, and rested.

So, yeah.

Alright, well last question then is like why is YC not in Silicon Valley?

That's a, that's a question that I ask the writers and I started to realize it like it was kind of on their radar, but they didn't really understand the significance of Y Combinator in Silicon Valley; like like fully.

And like as soon as I started realizing this, I kind of like backed off a little bit because like if Y Combinator in Hacker News specifically, that like Hacker News, that was a huge surprise, right?

Yeah, Hacker News is like never mentioned, and, and I, I like I brought this up at one point, um, and realized it was like just barely on the radar.

I felt like maybe I shouldn't push this; maybe it's alright if this is just kind of a secret, like, you know, uh, uh if, uh, you know, like.

But that that was definitely something that, you know, I, I've thought a lot about.

Um, Hacker News is like, like the place to go; Y Combinator is the place to go if you're doing a startup.

So like, yeah, that's definitely, we may have just doubted ourselves.

I know; don't, don't be shocked if that shows up in the next season.

Okay, thanks man, you're great.