Ray Dalio & Bill Belichick on Building Great Teams

Okay, well, this looks comfortable. Good! It's good to have you. Glad you're comfortable, right? Thank you for writing this book. I can't tell you how much I enjoy this—this, uh, very educational—and the way that you put your story principles into words in a very, um, helpful, constructive way for somebody like myself. I can't thank you enough for writing this. This is a masterpiece! This is a Bible for any manager.

Well, I'm glad that you found it helpful. You know, when you first called and we started to have a conversation, I think we spoke for something like an hour. What struck me is that, like, no matter what we were talking about, we had the same principles but in two different domains. So, you know, like we're talking about how do you build an organization, how do you build a team? And we would go back and forth—how do you hold high standards, how do you develop people? It was literally principle after principle after principle. The first, you know, few were like those resonated—they really— I felt like this is what I do and Ray has this in words, organized in a way that is the way I think about it. And then each one leads to the next one.

And the interaction between, oh, what you create as the innovator and then transformed into a manager, and how, you know, understanding how you can create a product but then manage the size of Bridgewater as a, you know, a total entity—not the four people you had when you started or whatever it was. We're here today really to talk about not only what's a kick for us to talk about but also to convey to others like, wow, you could do this thing or that.

I think the interesting thing—one of the most interesting things of the book was when you talk about going from what was it—a four-man, four-person company?

Well, it started with me and another guy—

Yeah, three people.

Three? Okay. And how many now?

Fifteen hundred.

Fifteen hundred! Um, the transformation of that and your role in that—from being an investor to being a manager to all the other things in between. So from my view, it was a relationship of meaningful work and meaningful relationships. But from a time management standpoint, Ray, when you spent your time trying to find the right investments, trying to find the right way to manage and maximize the returns, to being responsible for fifteen hundred employees, right? There's no way you could spend the same amount of time managing the actual dollars as managing the people.

Wouldn't you start, you know, with two or three people, and then you go to another level?

I had to invent a new way—a new way, a new way. I remember when we got to sixty-seven people that I would always give, uh, personalized gifts at the holiday season and I would always write everybody a long letter at the holiday season. Now, I remember sixty-seven people and I remember I couldn’t do it. Right? Because it broke my back. I mean, just too much. And then, I knew that I was now going to another level, and when I was going to that other level, I had to invent a new way of operating.

So going from the three to the fifteen hundred required a lot of different inventiveness and then communicating well because when I went from the sixty-seven who knew me and knew where I was coming from and then I had to go to another level, how was I going to keep that same communication, that same idea of meritocracy?

That's why I started to write down principles.

Okay, so I'm having to make decisions. Well, I wanted everybody to be in it with me, so by doing the videos and taping everything, so everybody could see—then they could see what's being made. And so that helped the idea of meritocracy. And then you write it down. One of the challenges that I found is to be totally straightforward with people.

That was one of the best things about your book, was how direct you are and, um, how you talked about, you know, leaving your ego at the door, giving honest feedback, constructive criticism, not being offended by really something that's trying to help you, and being able to accept—in our case—being able to accept coaching, being able to accept, um, instruction, and then taking positive action to improve it.

That's a big part of our culture, but the way you articulated it in the book was fantastic and, um, it really showed a, you know, a very strong commitment to that—that's obvious in Bridgewater. You do a lot of that.

The most challenging part was to be tough on tough love. I used to think about Vince Lombardi—tough love, tough love! You know, you got to be that toughness that then raises them to another level. And then when you give it, give it with love—you got to give it with love.

And I felt the love, but also the need for toughness. And not everybody, you know, some people rise and they get the tough love, and some people, uh, you know, it hurts.

And so if you were communicating with people, can you communicate totally straightforward? Can you say you don't have maturity or you don't have the toughness? Um, how do you deal with that interaction?

Like, I try to be very straightforward. I would say, that's a weakness for you, that's an issue, and that there's maybe the ability to work around the issue. In my case, if you find somebody who's weak at something but they're good at something else, you compare them with somebody who's good at what they're weak at in order to then—so you put together teams that work that way, but still the recognition that you're weak at that thing.

So when you're dealing with people, maybe it's because they come to expect it—that I'm coming to a team and they're used to saying, okay, you're weak at this, you're strong—well, how's that go? Well actually, that's fairly easy because our opponent are the guys on the other side of the field. So whatever our weaknesses is—my weakness, another player's weakness—we're going to be attacked by our opponents at that weakness.

So we all need to strengthen our weaknesses to compete against our opponents. As long as it's direct, uh, it's really with the idea of like let's get better and beat our opponents, and that goes over pretty well. I think the thing that I always try to avoid, and it's difficult, is if it's personal.

You know, personal criticism is different than the professional criticism. Um, here's how you need to prepare better, here's how you need to play better, here's how you need to, um, you know, here's how I need to coach better. That's all to me—that's all fine. Uh, when it gets personal than that, then that gets into another, you know, another level that then I think is more destructive than constructive.

So we definitely avoid that at all costs, uh, because nothing's personal! It's all committed towards winning.

Right? Sometimes I think in a, uh, non-sports environment, non-athletic environment, the people who come in might not react as well to that as in a sports environment because necessity makes it clear. And you do it sometimes—it's more challenging than that when you deal with a weakness.

I'll give you an example. We had a case where we rate all the different people and for a lot of statistics and so on—and these are your baseball cards! These are baseball cards, right? And then we have a list and somebody's last on the list—okay, some people can go through that and some people can't go through that. But it's okay; here are your points and that's what it is!

And what do you do to get better? You always want to help people, so it takes a certain kind of person in our environment to say, okay, that's where I am on the list and what do I do about it? And it's not so easy sometimes.

I suspect it's more straightforward in your game. Do you think?

Well, I do. I think the good thing is to be on the list—to be part of the New England Patriots. I've been last on the list before. Um, and you either find ways to create more value for yourself on the team and in the organization, or they replace you.

So I think all of us—most all of us have been last on the list at some point in time. Um, but yeah, again to me, the important thing is, you know, making a commitment to get better. And so you know, is it hard to admit your weaknesses? Yes, but again, if you don't address them, your opponents will.

That's right. So another thing about us—we were talking about is, uh, um, failure. Like I had my big failure in 1982, like in my case, I made a terrible call in the markets and whatever it is, and I went broke.

And I, uh, lost money and I had to—I went so broke, I had to borrow four thousand dollars from my dad to take care of my family bills and so on. Very painful! But that goes down in my mind as one of the best experiences I had because I had to learn about, okay, what do I do? What’s the lesson?

You know, and I've got this principle: pain plus reflection equals progress. I know you had your own failure.

Well, there were many along the way, and of course in the NFL, when you play, um, every week, you have the success or failure—there's the report card. Uh, it's pretty clear-cut.

So again, you learn that job security is based on performance and anything that gets in the way of performance affects your job security. Uh, that was pretty evident again in Cleveland when I became a head coach. You know, after spending 12 years with the Giants and went to Cleveland, um, even though we went from a bad team when I got there—3 and 13—to, you know, to a very successful, you know, 11 and 5, 12 and 6 in '94, uh, then a down year, '95, and, uh, that was the end.

And so, you know, when I reflect back on the five years in Cleveland, I look at some of the things that I failed at, that I, you know, needed to do better in the next opportunity.

And, you know, fortunately, uh, in New England, um, Robert Kraft and the Kraft family gave me an opportunity to, you know, to resume a head coaching opportunity there in, uh, 2000. And, you know, I tried to take a lot of the lessons that I learned from the Cleveland experience, um, which a lot of it was good, but again, the things that came up short, I tried to implement those in the new opportunity in New England.

And along with the support of ownership, um, it's worked out pretty well.

Your attitude—uh, I think is very similar, like pain provides lessons many times, right?

Absolutely! See, the pain on the front end, pain on the back end—it's either the pain of preparation or the pain of failure. And so it's, it's—I try to put it in on the front end. Don't always avoid it on the back end, but do everything I can to not have the results be painful.

So picking people—that’s what we're on. Tell me about it.

Well, I think that's the number one thing is to try to get it right on the way in the door. Um, and you know, understanding what you need and what you're looking for.

So, um, as we like to say, um, if you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there. So we try to define the path of what we're looking for in terms of the traits, uh, the athletic qualities, the competitiveness, and so forth—uh, you know, by position and to identify that.

And then try to select those people that we feel like will fit into our culture and into our program. Um, because it's so hard to change them if they don't have those qualities. It's really hard to, uh, you know, you can mold a little bit but it's hard to fundamentally change selfish to unselfish, as an example.

So, um, that's really the selection part of it is really important for us in the beginning. And, um, in our business, we start with ninety players, uh, and then we go to fifty-three. So thirty-seven players get fired every year.

Um, and one of the things that I learned from Jack Welch—uh, one of his great axioms was treat him the same way on the way out as you treat him on the way in. If you're happy to have them on the way in, you love them on the way in. If it doesn't work out, you feel the same way about them on the way out.

Unless there's been some extraordinary circumstance, but sometimes it just doesn't work out or you have to move on, and it's probably your fault as much as it is anybody else’s because you didn't select the right person. But in the end, you know, we move on and treat them the same.

It's a way in, it's a way out. But the selection process at the beginning really is the key to building the culture and building the organization that you want.

In our conversations, one of the things that I liked about what you did, and, um, which is what I do, is you get very clear on the specifications and you—you know that people are different and you make very clear distinctions of what somebody is like, you know. And, and, and we try to do the same thing.

What it's like—you're really talking not just about skills, you're talking about things like consideration, determination, and you were talking— we were talking about about, um, toughness, okay? And all the different types of toughness, and you'll speck it out.

I know for me, I try to speck it out—same thing, try to speck it out. So I know in detail because if you know what somebody's like, you know how they're going to perform in a job.

Right? And, and there's some things you can change or improve, whether it be experience, or technique, or, um, you know, sometimes just maturity. And, um, and then there are other things that are, I think, fundamentally very hard to change.

Um, so you have to live with those. Height, for example, uh, so some things you get and then there's other things that you look at and say, okay, you know, we can adjust this. But ultimately, if a player or a coach—you know, whoever you bring to your organization—has something that you feel like you are going to have to manage to a certain degree, then you have to ask yourself: are we capable of that?

Can we give the person what they need? Do we have the resources to help them with whatever it is that they need so that they can be successful? And if the answer is no, then I think you just have to be realistic and say, okay, well then, you know, we’re just, this isn't the right fit—we need to move on and find somebody else.

Um, and that's not always the easiest thing to identify, but when you can identify what the problem is, uh—whether it be physical or, you know, some other form—that whether or not you have the resources organizationally to handle that, right?

What do you do? You have a game Sunday, and you come and you look at the videos and you look at the mistakes made, and you analyze the mistakes made and how to get better, right?

Yes, we do an assessment after every game. We do an assessment after each period in the year—so free agency, the offseason program, the draft, mini camps, things like that.

Um, and the idea is really to look at what we did well and what caused that, what we didn't do well and what caused that, what decisions were critical decisions and, you know, how those turned out, and was there a flaw in the process or maybe a process helped us make the right decision, depending on how it went.

And what were the critical errors? What caused the critical errors in the game? A critical penalty, a critical mental error, a critical communication breakdown? Whatever it was.

And we do that win or lose! It doesn’t matter, like the evaluation is the evaluation.

Um, what we would do differently, you know, if we face this opponent again or an opponent with a similar, um, similar type personnel or similar scheme, how we—and so just a full evaluation of everything that happened with the idea of, you know, making that better and not having the same thing next week on this—on that sheet.

You know, not saying the same thing was the same mistake we made last week—the same mistake we made last week!

This is another communication, same communication mistake! And try to eliminate those and, and you know, continue to correct things and recognize what we did well.

Why did we win? What did we do well to win? All right, let's make sure that we continue to emphasize and do that because that's the reason why we won!

Um, so it's not just eliminate mistakes, it's also trying to build into your strengths and, you know, it's really pretty basic of, you know, any war or any counter, you know, use your strengths and, and don't let your weaknesses, you know, bring you down.

So play to your strengths and protect your weaknesses.

Um, so we do, uh, some of the things—we actually video everything that's going on, and then you could look at the video and then, uh, reflect on it.

And one of the things I found is that, um, some people when they look at their, uh, mistakes react differently than other people when they look at their mistakes.

Do you find that?

Again, we try to make it very professional, and you know, if now, sometimes there's a disagreement about the mistake. Uh, you know, well I did this—well, somebody told me to do that; that was, you know, somebody instructed me to do that. They made a call in the field or this is the way the coach explained it and then we have to get to the bottom of that. Like, all right, well you were told the wrong thing or no, you thought they told you to do that— that isn’t what they were telling you to do; you know, whatever the communication breakdown is.

So, um, again, some people will easily own their mistakes—there's not some people who will not as well own their mistakes.

Again, it'll vary or not. Every once in a while, you’ll get some situations where it’s not clear-cut exactly what went wrong— or maybe it’s a combination of things.

Maybe a player didn't run a good route, and maybe it wasn't a good throw, and maybe there was a protection breakdown that caused the quarterback to not have, you know— and so maybe it’s a combination of things.

I find it more difficult. I find a lot of people— not a lot, some—I think it’s a very big differentiator between people who will own their mistakes and easily learn them.

And I suspect it’s probably because of their—used to probably when they were growing up.

Yeah, in playing their game all the way through to when the time that they got there, that’s just the way it is in our case.

Um, people have to—some people are more used to being handled with kid gloves. And, you know, it’s not as easy to be straightforward and saying, okay, and then say I got it—I own that mistake.

Well, there's no question, right, that there's a—a—an art and a differential between how you say something to somebody.

There’s some—there's some players that, you know, you would put it one way and then there’s other players you might put a little bit differently to them, or just do it in a little bit of a different setting.

Uh, not that you would—because, again, if something goes wrong and nobody says anything, I don’t know, does everybody like, I might have done it right but I think I did it wrong because it turned out badly?

No! Here’s the problem, we fixed this problem! Everybody else is good! Everybody else keep doing what they’re doing, we just have to fix this one thing right here.

If you don’t address the issue, then there’s a confusion about what the problem was.

And so, a lot of times, you know we’ll come off the field and like say we’re on defense. We come off the field, we give up a play.

All right, and a player will come over and say that was my fault, I screwed that up. I got it! I know I—that’s not going to happen again! I misread the play, I did the wrong thing! I'll take care of it!

That problem is fixed! Okay, great! Everybody keep doing what we’re doing, this guy's going to fix the problem! It’s not going to be a problem.

Sometimes we come off the field and it’s like, okay, what happened on that play?

Well, I took this guy, I took that, I did that. All right, here’s the way we have to handle that.

Like everybody was trying to do the right thing but we have a problem here. So we have to adjust the way we’re doing it.

And so not all problems are directly, you know, somebody's fault. Sometimes it’s a combination of coaching or scheme that they did something that’s a little bit tough in this situation.

Okay, here’s how we’re going to have to handle it. We’re going to have to adjust the way we're playing it.

And so it varies, but in the end, if you identify what the problem is, then the other guys know they’re right and they can do what they’re doing, and you don't have that, I’m going to change!

No, you shouldn’t change! This person changes!

But the way you’re describing it is that can be done in a very straightforward way. The other thing you said before, though, is how you deliver it, and you, uh, so I want to get good coaching from you on that.

Well, for example, with Tom—Tom Brady—um, if I was critical of the team and left him out, well then when the offense walked out of the room, everybody would be kind of like, you know, like Bel yelled at us, but they don't—Brady didn’t.

And so then it’s hard for Brady to be a leader and say, well, you know, come on you guys, it’s all your fault! So I would include him in it!

And Tom would be like, look, you gotta include me in the criticism too; otherwise, how can I go to my teammates, and I’m not going to put it on them?

It’s like it’s all of us, it’s me, it’s you, it’s all of us—we got all to do a better job!

And so I would include Tom in the criticism, and Tom was like, like you, you know, don’t leave me out. Otherwise, I don’t have a platform to lead from!

Are some people better than that?

Oh yeah, for sure! But, um, I’m saying like a true leader—that's what I’m asking, like a Michael Jordan. I mean, that's, you know, I know when coach Knight coached the Olympic team, I mean that was his number one guy—is he would yell at Jordan.

Well, everybody else, like he’s yelling at Jordan, he’s yelling at me! I better get, you know, nobody was above it!

And so that, you know, there’s a—there’s a, you know, a way to depend on who your players are, but you might get another player—it might not be the right thing to do.

Who, but also you’re thinking about the right thing—but you most—you might have a player who gets pissed off because you’re yelling at him, or don’t you get that?

Well yeah! It’s less of—it’s less of being mad than it is lack of confidence. It’s like, oh, he yelled at me, he doesn’t believe in me! He doesn’t think I can do it!

Oh, you know, like oh my, you know, it becomes a lack of confidence.

You know, and then sometimes you have to pull that player aside and say, look, uh, you know, you just need to fix this. Like you're—you keep doing what you're doing, you’re doing 90% good, 10% bad—just fix the 10% that's bad! Don’t go in the tank!

I think that’s good coaching on coaching because you said a couple of things here I think that are important. First of all, that it's—you affect—you can hurt his confidence!

So it’s not your interpreting it in a very good way, that you can hurt his confidence! And the way that you’ve just phrased it, like you can do it and it’ll be—and you got the 90% and so on must help him get through it.

Well yeah, again it depends on the players. Some players—there are some players you couldn't destroy their confidence, I don’t care what you do! They’re just super confident!

Then there’s other players that really, even though they're good, they, they have a little bit of a, they don’t have as much confidence!

And so it varies from player to player.

Do you get pampered that are too arrogant?

Well, I would say sometimes when we get the rookies in from college, there’s a de-recruiting process that goes on, uhhuh. Some of these players come out in college, he gets drafted, um, you know, he’s the best player on the team in college, right?

And he's playing against a lot of other bad players on other teams who are, you know, freshmen. I mean, he’s just better than everybody!

Well, come in the National Football League, there’s not too many rookies that are better than everybody. There’s very, very few!

So they quickly have to learn that if you do things the way you did them in college, you’re not—it's not going to work here! The other guys are faster than you, the other guys are stronger than you, the other guys have more experience than you!

Like, you’ve got to find a way to do things right to be successful! And so sometimes that process takes, you know, a little while. It could take a couple weeks, sometimes it could take a year of bad, bad results.

You know, so there’s a de-recruiting, you know, it’s kind of—I’m sure it's the same thing in college on, you know, some of the high school kids, kids—big high school recruits—some of them work out, some of them don’t!

And part of it’s because they think they’re already just better than everybody else, but they’re not! Not at the next level.

Now, let’s talk about partnership. Now, when you’re dealing in an organization, you have the owner, you have the players, okay? Now, there’s interpersonal relations—how do you deal with those interpersonal relations?

Like probably you know the question exactly—who's in control? And somebody thinks you should do it one way, somebody thinks you should do it the other way—how does that work?

Right! Well, I think the most important thing in all that is to clearly define what everybody's job and role is. That’s number one! Is whatever it is, this is what the expectations are—not how to do it necessarily, but what you're responsible for and what the next person is responsible for.

So there’s no misunderstanding about who’s responsible for what, who works for who, um, you know, what the chain of command is and so forth.

And so then they’re accountable for that—whatever that area is. And if there's a problem there, then it's not one of those where—it’s—you know, try to avoid that at all costs.

So, but in the relationships, I was going to—you had a quote, um, you know, you put out your kind of daily quotes there the other day about relationships, about the importance of generosity.

And if you don’t have generosity and then reciprocal generosity, you’ll never have the true depth of the relationship. I thought that was a brilliant quote!

And I thought a lot about that as I do a lot of your principles. And you just articulated it so well that if you really think about—I think about the strongest relationships and the generosity that comes with those.

Really, it’s generosity! It’s trust, but it’s generosity really is—is maybe a little above the trust factor that defines the relationship.

And, uh, I don't know, maybe you can talk about how that came to you because I’ve never heard that before, but the more I thought about it, the more I embraced it.

Mhm, yeah, it’s like, um, be on the far side of fair. You—you know, what an investment it is in—in me taking care of your well-being and then reciprocating it.

And what happens is, um, you know, through all religions around the world, whether they call it karma or whether they call it do unto others as you would have them do unto you, when you have that element of going beyond, it’s joyous and it’s practical!

You know, you were saying on the way out how you—somebody’s make doesn’t make the cut, treat them on the way out the way you treated them on the way in.

Is what you were saying! And if you keep operating that way, you'll get more than you give. It's just a reality.

It’s, yeah, if, if—and in that relationship if you’re generous on the outside and then they reciprocate that generosity, like that really defines the strength of the relationship that you're really unselfishly trying to provide more for the other person and they're trying to provide more for you.

Well, you--you must know that!

So I can turn to you and because when the players know you care about them and that you’re doing it that way, that they judge what you’re like! And, and you’re going beyond!

And it may be the whole holding them on the shoulder at that moment or whatever it is! When you know, I’m sure that that’s a powerful, um, practical influence in getting the more out of them. But also, it’s a joyous relationship!

Right? Aren’t the relationships important to you?

Oh, they're everything! Yeah, they're everything! And I can't even tell you how many players I text regularly that, uh, ten, twenty, thirty years ago, you know, played for me, coached with me.

Those just, you know, we’ve all moved on to different spots, and, and the relationship still goes back to, you know, what we went through together and that—I would say the sacrifices I made for them, sacrifices they made for me.

Um, you know, they’re just—their lifelong! They’re lifelong! But the generosity part of it was really—I thought that was so on point!

Well, it's—we're just talking about the different versions of that, right? And, and, you know, that you have succeeded not only in those two dimensions, you know—the that day on the field made you a better team because you had it, and then there’s an emotional rewarding relationship that extends for years.

And you remember that vividly. And you have the richness of that love in a sense, that so it’s just great to be in terms of a team!

So this is tough love—it is! It sometimes, it is— as the decision-maker! But the interesting thing I’ve always thought is that I learn as much from the players than they say they learn from me!

And that’s flattering! I learn from them! You know, I learn from things that they do, from experiences that they have, from the way that they train, prepare, play, a technique that they might use.

Maybe they don’t even know they’re doing it, and then to be able to myself improve, get better, recognize that, teach from that.

Um, you know, I’ve been very, very fortunate to be around a lot of great players and coaches, uh, that I’ve learned so much from, and they don't even—sometimes know they're teaching it to me.

But, you know, I see how they do it—the care of themselves, the leadership, how they handle a tough situation—and I can learn from that!

And, you know, I think some of them have reciprocated those feelings to me, but it really does go both ways.

And, you know, I can remember my dad at the Naval Academy talking about how much he learned from the players, the students there as they were going through the process at the Naval Academy, and that always struck me because I always thought of him as the teacher and them as the student.

But then he really opened my eyes to how much he learned from the—that he taught!

Is it, um, there are people who are, um, mutually supportive? If you have a—let's examine the spirit of a team—there was the high five and I want you to be successful, and we’re psyched! Describe that element of it!

Um, what are the elements of the psychology of the team where you get psyched?

I think the psyche, yeah, I think the psyche wears off after about ten seconds into the game! It’s about execution!

It’s okay—it’s about execution! It’s about your ability to execute your assignment, your job against an opponent that you don’t know exactly what they're going to do!

They have their strategies and they have their, you know, different, uh, techniques and—and way to try to foul you up just like you have theirs!

And your ability to execute your assignment consistently under pressure, individually in the one-on-one matchups and collectively as a team!

So—and that's really what it’s about! It's not about the jumping up and down!

I when we were talking before, we were talking about, um, the different elements and systemizing it, um, for example, you describe the different types of toughness.

Um, the person gets hit this way has got a certain type of toughness—this you probably gave me, I don't know, five or seven different categories of toughness.

Well, yeah, sure! There’s the, you know, the inline play where you’re lined up, you know, very close to each other and, and the ball snapped and it’s—it’s really combat! It’s hand-to-hand combat, and there’s a certain toughness to that!

Um, there’s definitely a toughness to a receiver catching the ball knowing he’s going to get hit but concentrating to make the catch and take the hit for the team for the success of the play!

He’s not hitting anybody but he’s getting hit! Similar to quarterback standing in there, right at the very last second to deliver the ball knowing that as soon as that ball leaves his hand, somebody's going to, you know, take a shot at him!

It's not like a pitcher—you stand on the mound whale back and throw it as hard as you can, there’s nothing in front of you!

It’s a whole lot different when you let the ball go and you know somebody's going to rock you! So that’s a different, you know, kind of toughness!

There’s a, there’s a, you know, for a receiver, then you have a blocking toughness! Right? So he’s going to catch the ball and take a hit but then he has to have the toughness to go in there and, you know, look a guy in the eye right across the field from him and—and block them!

Or take on that block defensively. Um, you know, running backs like the toughness that those guys have to carry the ball and have three or four guys standing there waiting for them, uh, you know, that are all looking to hit them—that's their job!

Um, there’s a toughness to run in—to, you know, two or three, you know, guys that outweighing by a hundred pounds or so at the, the line of scrimmage knowing that they’ve got to fight for that extra yard, half yard, whatever it is to get a first down!

So, um, then there’s the mental toughness part of it! You know guys like kickers that, um, how many times they kick the ball a game? Forget about the kickoffs! I mean, that's, you know—how many kick kicks do you get in a game? You know, five, six—like putts?

Like what if he putted five times on the golf course and you’ve got to make all five of them? I mean that's, you know, that’s a kicker’s job!

So it doesn’t come up very often. When it does, it’s important—really important! Um, but that mental toughness to just show up and, and make the kick at the right time!

Um, it's like a relief pitcher—you come in from the bullpen, you know you gotta get the guy out! Might be bases are loaded, might be a guy on third, nobody out, might be a fifty-five-yard field goal—might be a twenty-five-yard field goal!

Kickers can’t control that! So that— that mental toughness to, you know—and, and one—I—what was interesting in our conversation is I don’t know how many different types of toughness you mentioned!

It’s like, uh, Eskimos in snow, you know? You know how many different ways of saying snow based on the different types of it, you know?

That means that in terms—and that was just toughness! When we talked about different qualities, you referred to all the—uh, you know toughness is one thing!

Sure! Intelligence, instincts, you know, awareness—I mean it’s a—it’s a good list!

Okay, so what struck me in our conversation is like you would say there would be a formula almost in your head—whether you laid it out or not, but it was in your head!

So, you would say, "Okay, toughness," and I need this kind of toughness, and then I need, um, intelligence, and I need this kind of intelligence for that job, and then the next thing, and the next thing!

And all of that—and you got that specked out in your head!

So you've got this formula almost in your head for each position?

Yeah! As many of those qualities as you can get! Exactly, that’s right!

And the ones that are less important, they kind of go to the side, and you try to focus on the ones that are most important for that position!

That essentially is what?

Yeah, that’s what we’re trying to do!

Bill, what are your main principles for success?

Do your job! Work hard! Pay attention to details! And put the team first! I think they are the principles for all organizations.

I think ultimately, improvement should be putting the team first, improving and focusing on your job! You have to put the mission first!

That's right! You have to individually have self-improvement! In order to have self-improvement, you have to have self-awareness—and therefore, you have to be open-minded!

Yes! You have to accept the criticism, then you have to decide what you're going to do about it!

These were the things that you were saying!

Yes! The same things I would say!

Give me more principles! They're good principles!

In our business, we're very public, so there are a lot of things that are said by a lot of people that don't really have intimate knowledge of what the situation is.

So I—I encountered this, you listen?

Sure! I mean, you have family, you have media, you have other, you know, things—things that are—they don't really affect the product!

It’s just talk about the product! And so ignore the noise! And there’s no need for us to fuel that!

Like our job is to perform, not to do things that create more hype, more of a distraction! Just focus on—that's not our job! Our job is to perform!

So see, there’s a lot of wisdom there! There’s a lot of wisdom that can be applied!

Tenny, okay, um, yes! I have to deal with the media or whatever! There are different people have different things but just focus on doing your job and performing!

So it’s just many people—not just me—many businesses, maybe many arts, many different endeavors have the same thing.

So the, you know, the person who doesn’t know much, and then—and they offer their opinions, but you're advised to all of them! Just perform! Ignore the noise!

Good principles for others!

Yeah, and that's, of course, is harder to do in today's society with—with social media!

And so there's a lot of feedback from social media! Um, people who don't know the players, the team, have an opinion like this—like whatever it is!

Um, but they don't really know! But I would say sometimes people get influenced by that!

Um, versus the people who are in the room that are their teammates—those are the relationships that are really important, not the two thousand people that you don't know!

And those are the relationships that we try to build—not, you know, not the, not the external ones!

I'm not saying they shouldn't exist, I'm just saying as it relates to performance, the performance component of it is coach the players—the, the training, the people that train the athletes, the nutritionists, all those—that’s the performance part of it!

But there's a lot of outside noise that shouldn't affect those things! But sometimes it could or it does!

And, um, that's true through our whole society!

Oh absolutely! I'm sure you get plenty of advice!

What was most important in your learning and development? And what do you think is most important in most people's learning and development?

There’s four principles! Put the team first! Job security is team success! I mean it just isn’t professional football! Improve! That comes from knowing what to do and doing something about it!

And there’s really—there’s no substitute for hard work! It’s—you know, I think you can work people in just about every business! You can outwork them!

And all other things being equal, you know that—that work hard, that’ll make a difference!

Um, but in the team concept you have to do your job! And that’s really where leadership—you know, we talk a lot about leadership! Leadership to me is two things: it’s doing your job, putting the team first!

So if you can’t do your job, then you don’t have any leadership! And if you do your job for selfish reasons and don’t care about the team, then the team doesn’t really embrace you!

So if you do your job and/or a good teammate, then you have good leadership! Regardless of whether you’re vocal, not vocal, you know, whatever your leadership style is—there's a lot of different ones!

But if you can do your job, everybody will respect you! And if you put the team first, everybody will respect you for your unselfishness!

Then your leadership will be in the style that you choose!

What good advice! What good principles that you're passing along to other people!

Yeah, that's an easy one! Because a lot of people will benefit way beyond those who follow you!

I appreciate your encouragement!

Well, it was fun to talk with you! Great! Thank you for the opportunity!

Thank you!