The People and Tech That Power Nat Geo | Podcast | Overheard at National Geographic

Foreign, when you think about a 135-year-old institution, you know, you might think of something that's, you know, fussy or tradition-bound. This is Nathan Lump, he's National Geographic's editor-in-chief, the 11th person to lead this magazine, and nowadays that job includes a lot more than just a magazine. There's also TikTok and this podcast and an Instagram feed with hundreds of millions of followers. Standing in a room called the Exploration Technology Lab with Denley Delaney, who's the senior manager of this lab, and Jill Tiefenthaler, the CEO of the National Geographic Society, this is where Nat Geo engineers design cameras that study the bottom of the ocean and create Critter Cams that let us see the world through the eyes of a shark.

I think what you see here in the lab, with the technology that Denley's describing, and the vision that Jill's describing for how the Society continues to grow and evolve, like what you're really perceiving is a modern institution that is really, you know, looking at both where we are today and also where we're, you know, where we're going to go. And I think that's really exciting when you think about what the next 135 years mean.

Foreign. I'm Jacob Pinner, senior producer on the Nat Geo audio team, and this is Overheard, a show where we eavesdrop on the wild conversations we have at Nat Geo and follow them to the edges of our big weird beautiful world. This week, to celebrate National Geographic's 135th birthday, Nathan and I take you on a behind-the-scenes tour of some of the people and gadgets that make this a special place. And later, you get to play along too! We'll play an interactive trivia game based on the wild sounds recorded on assignment by our Nat Geo explorers and photographers. That's all coming up. [Music]

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Nathan Lump, you are the editor-in-chief of National Geographic. The audio team is really looking forward to spending some time with you, so first off, thank you so much for doing this with us.

Thank you, Jacob. It's great to be finally on the podcast. I'm a big fan.

Well, that's good to hear! So, you know, our plan today is we're going to go on a little tour because National Geographic is turning 135 years old, and we've picked out some of the places that make this a really special, you know, unique, creative place. And we're going to swing by a couple of those and meet the people who make those things happen.

But before we do that, we want to give our listeners a chance to learn a little bit more about you. You know, you started this job in summer of 2022. Before you were here at National Geographic, you know, you've worked at some big publications like Condé Nast Traveler, The New York Times, Travel and Leisure, and Expedia. But I also—I did my homework—and you know you've written that you had a connection to National Geographic from when you were a kid, so I was wondering if we could start there.

Yeah, I have been a fan of National Geographic since I was a little boy. My grandmother gave us a subscription to National Geographic, my family a subscription when I was maybe eight or nine years old. And I was a super nerdy kid, a voracious reader. I mean, I would read the encyclopedia—that's like the kind of nerd I was. And in my very first issue of the magazine, there's a picture of me holding an issue from the 1980s that had the Serengeti on the cover. That's one that I really remember because I was, you know, fascinated with those animals, but also in animal migration and that environment. And I really remember that that particular issue really stuck with me.

You know, Nat Geo has something like 250 million Instagram followers, and we posted a video of you asking those followers what they want to know about National Geographic. So the first one, I think, is deceptively simple: what is the main purpose of Nat Geo?

So, as we like to say at National Geographic, our mission is to inspire the explorer in everyone. We really want to inspire people to see the world, you know, as this wonderful place. And hopefully, by extension, to want to preserve and protect it. You know, we are a true modern, multi-platform multimedia brand, and that means that we try to be where people are, where they're looking for, you know, inspiration and for the kind of content we do. So, you know, video is an important piece of how we reach people. That's through, you know, platforms like TikTok as well as YouTube and Instagram itself.

So, for example, we've got an upcoming story called "Secrets of the Elephants," and that's what we would call an example of 360 storytelling, where you'll, you know, there'll be a cover story feature in the magazine, but also a big package of content about elephants on our website and our app. We'll have a podcast, so lots and lots of stuff that we're doing there to really bring elephants, you know, to our audience at that moment in time in a whole bunch of different ways. And that's the kind of storytelling that I love to do, where we're really taking advantage of all the opportunities that we have in this day and age to, you know, to bring those stories to life.

So Nathan, this has been stop number one on the tour, your office. We're headed down to the National Geographic basement, and we'll see what's down there. [Music]

Good! Yes, good! Nice to see you. This is exciting! So we're in the Exploration Technology Lab. We've got Jill Tiefenthaler here with us, the CEO of the National Geographic Society.

Hi, Jill, thank you so much!

Great to be with you all. It's always fun to take Nathan around the building.

And we also have Denley Delaney, the senior manager of Exploration Technology at the National Geographic Society.

Hi, Denley.

Hi there! It's great to be here in the Exploration Technology Lab with Jill and Nathan.

Okay, so I want to start with some of the stuff that we've got in front of us because you've got like, it's kind of like show and tell in here. So the first thing, there's this big glass orb-looking thing with a metal pole coming out of it, and it's hanging off this metal rig. I mean, it's like, I don't know, it's quite a bit bigger than like a basketball. I mean, it's pretty big. Why don't you tell us what that is and what you have to do with it?

So this here is a deep-sea camera system designed to collect video data of habitats and biodiversity on the sea floor. This is a tool that our team originally developed in 2009, with the goal of being able to develop and deploy a relatively low-cost, lightweight tool to the deepest part of the ocean, the Mariana Trench, all the way down to 11,000 meters deep. Our team was successful in that effort, but we realized that not everybody needs a tool that can go to full ocean depth. So over the years, we've made a few tweaks and refinements and landed at this smaller, more lightweight version that you see here today. So this deep-sea camera system can go to 6,000 meters depth. We have deployed the system well over 500 times. We've collected over 1,100 hours of footage, and because so little of the deep sea has been explored, we're finding that approximately one in every ten deployments of the system results in some sort of publishable discovery. And when we're ready to deploy the system, we'll throw it off the side of the boat. It'll sink to the sea floor where it will collect video data for a specified amount of time, and once that time has elapsed, the camera will release itself from the anchor and pop back up to the surface.

So, Jill, here in this lab, Denley is obviously developing this stuff to support the many Nat Geo explorers that are out in the field. I actually did help with one of these one time! It wasn't in the really deep sea one, but the only thing they let me do was put the chum in the bait box.

That sounds like a pretty important job!

That's another kind of support, right? Well, I mean, what was it like? Yeah, so you're on a boat or something out in the open water. What was it like to be there for that?

It was amazing! We were out with a group of explorers on Bob Ballard's boat, the Nautilus, in the Pacific, and they were studying sharks. They had a smaller version of the drop cams with bait, and every day we would drop them and at night pull them up and pull out those cards and look and see what was underground. But they were really trying there to figure out what species were still around the Pacific in the Hawaiian Islands area. But it was amazing to see their work in action!

And Denley, weren't you out in the field and actually part of a discovery of a new species to science?

So I was recently out in the field, and we had a species range extent. So this means this is the first time that we've seen a species in a particular area. So that happened most recently in the Galapagos in 2019, but it's so exciting to get to go out into the field. And over the last year, we've supported expeditions in Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Italy, the Philippines, and also in the Bahamas, which is exciting for me because that's where I'm from and where my passion for the ocean was sparked.

Can you tell us a little bit more about your background and how you ended up, you know, at Nat Geo Base Camp designing and working on all these cool tools?

Well, I'm from the Bahamas, which is an archipelago in the Caribbean of over 700 islands surrounded by absolutely beautiful turquoise water. Growing up there is really what sparked my passion for the ocean. I began scuba diving at the age of 11, and this really led to me being very curious about life beneath the surface. So the opportunity to work within the Exploration Technology Lab and to oversee our marine portfolio is truly a dream job, in being able to support explorers around the world is such an exciting experience!

So Denley, the next thing—um, we've got this metal tube. It's got a sticker that says Nat Geo Critter Cam, which I think kind of gives away what it is, but this one—it's mounted on this wooden thing that looks like a shark fin.

That's correct!

So what's going on?

That's correct! So this here is a Critter Cam. We started developing Critter Cams in the '90s, and they are animal-born video tags. So they are video cameras that are designed to be worn by animals. We make them for both marine and terrestrial species of animals, and they come in all different shapes and sizes. So you've described one that's designed to be worn on a shark fin. We also have Critter Cams that are designed to be worn by big cats and are shaped like a collar. These are non-invasive, so they'll release from the animal after a specified amount of time or once the animal has crossed a specific geographic boundary, for example. What makes these tools unique is that we're able to really study the behavior of these animals by seeing a lot of life from their perspective and studying their daily lives.

Well, you said they're non-invasive, and I did wonder, like, you know, if I was a shark, would this hurt to have on my back?

So we do work with biologists and experts whenever we're out in the field deploying these systems. But most of them are suction cup-based or clip-based to just gently attach to a fin or to be worn like a collar.

Wow, and then they fall right off when you're done!

That's correct!

Thank you! So, Jill, you joined the National Geographic Society as CEO in 2020 and apparently have done, you know, everything from leading the organization to filling up the chum bucket. But it was really significant because you became the first woman ever to hold that job. I was just wondering if you can tell us more about where that journey started for you and maybe like what your earliest National Geographic memory is, if there is one?

Absolutely! So, like so many—like my friend Nathan—it all started with the magazine. When I was a little girl, I grew up on a farm in Iowa, and I vividly remember this is going to date me—but in 1977, when they had King Tut's funeral mask on the cover of National Geographic. And I was in my little library, my little Catholic school in rural Iowa, and I'll never forget going—that was the first time I really dove into National Geographic, and I never really stopped.

Nathan, I saw you nodding a lot. Do you remember that? Was that one that stuck out to you too?

Yeah, well, we just recently did a lot of coverage around King Tut in the 100th anniversary of his discovery. Among the things that I did was to go back and look at all of that content because we've covered King Tut since the '30s. The wealth of storytelling that we've done around Tut and his treasures is really extraordinary. You know, I saw the King Tut immersive experience that's been in the National Geographic Museum, in which we actually did an episode of Overheard about, which was very fun.

So I'm curious if you can also tell us what you're planning in terms of future storytelling experiences, and I know you've started to show the world the ways that Nat Geo Base Camp is going to change over in the next few years.

Well, in the short run, in just a few days, we'll be hosting Storyteller Summit right here at headquarters, which every year we bring. National Geographic is one of the largest—the Society is one of the largest funders of independent storytellers in the world, so we'll be bringing a bunch of them to campus to share their photography and their stories and their videos, etc. So excited about that! But in the long term, in addition to expanding our museum, adding a photography gallery, an amazing new screen, bringing our archives up and putting it out in front of the public, and also an incredible new education center, we're really excited about a new immersive experience for guests when they're here as well. So, all of that we're underway, which is why we're fiddling down here with this space in the lab a little bit, but our work has started, and we'll be completing in about three years.

So, I mean, you know, we're here because National Geographic is turning 135 years old, which is a very cool milestone. You know, and as much history as there is, I know that there's also a lot of looking forward as well, and a lot more to come in the future. So I wonder if you can just tell us what you're excited about that you're looking ahead to?

Well, for 135 years, we've been supporting explorers to be out there doing amazing things like dropping technology, whether it was the first underwater photography way back or these cool drop cams that Denley and her team work on today. And I'm just excited about the next expeditions to come. We're really, I think, helping to lead a new age of exploration at National Geographic, which means supporting more storytellers and scientists around the globe to be out there in the world, many of them hopefully working in their own countries and their home bases, and being a part of this great National Geographic community.

Denley, Jill Tiefenthaler, thank you so much. This was really a pleasure, and see you at Storyteller Summit!

Sounds great! Enjoy the rest of your tour!

Thank you! Thanks so much. [Music]

Hi, Fernando!

Hello, sir! Good to see you!

Thank you for letting us come in!

Yeah, thank you for coming!

Yeah, my pleasure. So we're in the office/studio of Fernando Baptista. Your official title, I think, is senior graphics editor.

Yeah.

But I was thinking from what I know about what you do, that seems like an understatement, or like something that doesn't totally capture—I was wondering if maybe in a sentence or two you could describe what your job is.

Yeah, my job first is to find the conflict photographic—what we're going to tell with the graphic, the story behind—and after that is to design the graphic and produce it for both platforms, for print first and for digital. So that is my goal.

What Fernando is not saying is that he's an artist—which I think, that's what you are. You're an artist who brings a great deal of intelligence to the work so that it explains things and helps people understand things to our audience. But I would just—I would add that I was wondering if we could start by maybe you showing us something that you're working on now.

Yeah, right now, I'm working for the Animals Longevity, is one story that I propose about how long the animals live, and basically we try to explain why some live longer than others, and look like the body size is something that is very important.

So what I see is there's a draft. It's made out of paper and I don't know, eight, ten inches tall maybe? And I can sort of see, like, if I bend down a little bit and I get where I think the camera is going to be, like, right in front, you've cut some little paper fringes that look like there'll be grass. There's a little paper branch that's hanging above the giraffe that they're eating, and then a couple of trees in the background. But the thing I think is so interesting about this is that I know that from having seen your videos before, I imagine that there's still a lot of work left to do.

Yeah, this is just the beginning!

No, right now we are creating a storyboard, and with this storyboard we make a selection of the animals and, you know, the way to tell the story. And basically, it will be like a continuous scene, you know? Basically, you will see—you watch, you will go from land to the ocean with the, you know, the red white real and shark, you know, all kinds of species and highlight the numbers.

But even though it's early stages, the details are so intricate. It's got joints that move, it's got this tail that also, again, is just sort of cut, notches in the paper that looks really lifelike. I mean, this is just the beginning, and I can already tell that, you know, so much work and effort went into it to make it, you know, both handmade and you can tell that it's an artist who did this, but also very lifelike and very authentic, it seems like!

Yeah, I feel that people appreciate the stuff that is made by hand. There are something special that are imperfection. Yeah, I think that there are something special in what, with your hands, and now we use a little bit both technology, analogue, but always keeping this kind of, you know, handmade style.

You know, I'm looking around and I see, just to name like a couple of things that come to mind, I think there's a saber-toothed tiger, a Dodo, a model of Stonehenge, an extinct shark, and then, like so many more things. And each of those things is something that if you make a model of it and you get it wrong, there's going to be a scientist somewhere who notices, and they might write you an email and say, "Fernando, you got it wrong!"

So can you explain how you make sure that you get them correct, and why that's such an important part of the process?

Yeah, in our profession, we always work with a researcher, and during all the process that can be several weeks, we send our text art. We get information from them and basically we put like a pastel that we put together, but they sign everything. So we spend a lot of hours and time with that professional.

Nathan, maybe I can give the last question to you. You know, as the editor-in-chief, why do you think it's important to have this kind of art and creativity that, you know, of course is also scientifically accurate? You know, what does that bring to people who see this that they wouldn't get otherwise?

Well, to me, it's a—you know, it's another way of telling stories, right? And conveying information, but in a way that is super visually interesting and also inherently engaging because you can see, you know, you're not just reading about something; you're actually seeing it. And the kind of work that Fernando does is, you know, both beautiful and artistic but also realistic and accurate. It achieves both of those ends in a way that I think is really beautiful and very special to us. You know, there are very few places in the world that make content like this, and it's one of the things that I think really makes National Geographic what it is and so special.

Foreign. [Music]

Well, Nathan Lump, editor-in-chief of National Geographic, we have ended up on the last leg of our tour, and we are in my favorite place in the National Geographic headquarters, which is our podcast studio, and I've got a little game for you. I'm looking forward to it!

This is a game of Sound Bank Trivia. Sound Bank is our database of audio, it's recorded on assignment by National Geographic explorers and staff, and I've got to tell you, since we started it about a year ago, we've gotten some very cool sounds that you're about to hear.

So the way this works is that I've got four questions for you. For each one, I'm going to play a sound, and then I've got a question about that sound. It's pretty simple. What do I get if I get them all right?

We will let you record the voicemail of one lucky question.

Okay! Um, so I will say, if you're listening at home, there are no trick questions here. You don't have to be a scientist or a National Geographic explorer to keep up with this. Anybody can play, I promise!

Okay, Nathan Lump, here is your first Sound Bank sound. So this is the sound of two loons, and they're calling to each other across a lake. So my question is, in which of these places would you be most likely to find a common loon—in the northern U.S. and Canada, in Siberia, or in the Arabian Peninsula?

Northern U.S. and Canada.

So, final answer?

That's my final answer.

That's right! Well, I grew up in Wisconsin.

Yeah, I kind of wondered about that, actually! So did you hear loons when you were growing up? Or do you remember?

No, not where I grew up, but we went camping every summer in the northern part of Wisconsin, and loons were on all the lakes up there. So, yeah, we hear them in the morning. It's beautiful—a wonderful way to wake up!

Yeah, so I grew up in the U.S. but not in the north, and I didn't know what the sound was when I first heard it. It came from Babak To Freshii, who's an explorer and a photographer. He recorded these two loons at a lake in Maine, and Babak photographs the night sky. And the thing about loons is that having a dark night sky is really important for them, as it is for some other animals. And he says that just leaving on one LED light at night can disturb those loons and the insects you hear in the background. And it goes to show that having a dark night sky is really important.

So cool! You're one for one; congrats! Nathan, let's move on to number two.

Good! Okay, this one I will tell you is one of my favorites. [Applause]

Okay, so here's what I'll tell you. I'm not going to tell you much about this yet. What I will tell you is that this sound was recorded by a National Geographic explorer in India. So my question is: Is this sound coming from a species of bird, a species of monkey, or a species of wild dog?

Um, I'm going to say—I mean, I'm guessing, but I'm going to guess it's a monkey.

The animal you just heard is a dhole, which is a type of wild dog.

Well, there you go!

I know! So here's the thing about dholes—they're sometimes called whistling dogs because they make these whistling sounds. Sometimes they cluck like a chicken, and they make all these other strange noises. These came from explorer Vijay Ramesh, and he was out in the forest, and he was trying to record the sound of birds, and he just heard this in the distance. One of the ways he described it was that it was haunting to hear this in the wild.

Yeah, well, and I'm sure many of our listeners maybe don't even know there are wild dogs in India, so that is part of the cool thing about National Geographic.

Okay, you ready for question number three?

I am!

Okay, here we go. Foreign is recording from underwater at a coral reef in Mozambique in the Indian Ocean, and according to the explorer who recorded this, this sound is what you would hear at healthy coral reefs pretty much all over the world between temperate and tropical zones—so just a huge swath of the ocean. So Nathan, what is making this sound? Option number one: it's pebbles being turned around by the ocean current. Option number two: it's a colony of shrimp snapping their claws all at once. Or option number three: it's a school of fish nibbling on plankton.

Hmm, this is where you tell I'm not a diver! [Laughter] Um, I mean, is it shrimp?

It's the shrimp! These are called snapping shrimp. These came from explorer Ashley Lillis. She studied these shrimp for years. She says these are actually one of the loudest sounds of any animal that we know about. The shrimp have this super specialized claw, and so there's like tons of shrimp doing all this at once, and they're really small, easy to hear, difficult to see. Ashley says, but like, if you imagine you're a hungry shark, you might be tuned into this sound looking for your next meal, so she thinks scientists should keep studying it.

Cool! Okay, you're two for three. We're onto the home stretch. Here is our last sound. These are amazing. This came from Peter Gwynn, co-host of this very podcast, and he recorded this in the Masai Mara in Kenya, which is part of the Serengeti ecosystem. What you're hearing is a clan of hyenas; they're stealing a freshly killed buffalo calf from lionesses who hunted it. So it's pretty gnarly, but here's my question: hyenas look like dogs; they have a lot of dog traits, and a lot of people think of them as a type of dog. But there is actually another type of animal that they're more closely related to. So are spotted hyenas more closely related to bats, cats, or rats?

Now this is gonna really annoy me because I've been on safari like a million times, and I think I've heard this reference before. I'm about to get it wrong! Um, I think it's something weird, and I'm going to say bats.

It's cats! Spotted hyenas are more closely related to big cats like lions and tigers than to other dog species.

Yeah, and apparently they're also closely related to mongooses. Nathan, you got two out of four, which I have to say is very good for throwing random trivia from around the world that you did not know where it was coming from! I think two out of four is a pretty good score. Wow, I'm sorry Janet at home; you're not gonna get Jacob's voicemail!

Well, Nathan, we'll find you, you know, a National Geographic notebook at the Company Store there to make it worth it. I can make that happen!

Nathan Lump, editor-in-chief of National Geographic, happy 135th birthday, and thank you for spending it with Overheard at National Geographic!

Well, for an old man, I think I'm doing okay! I don't look a day over 120.

Thanks for having me on!

I knew that with cats! I just had a moment; I was like, it's something really weird. You know, like there's the—if you like the sounds you just heard, we've got a lot more where those came from. We're using some of them to create all-new stories in 3D audio. It's a totally immersive way of experiencing the adventures of a Nat Geo explorer using Dolby Atmos technology like you have never heard before. We'll be showcasing these stories at a workshop at the National Geographic Storyteller Summit, and stay tuned for more info about how you can hear these sounds in immersive 3D audio coming later this year.

Foreign. If you like what you hear and you want to support more content like this, please rate and review us in your podcast app and consider a National Geographic subscription. That's the best way to support Overheard. Go to NatGeo.com/exploremore to subscribe. There's a link in our show notes, and you can also find more stories about what we talked about today. Meet our editor-in-chief Nathan Lump and National Geographic Society CEO Jill Tiefenthaler. You can also learn more about the chief scientist of the Exploration Technology Lab and how she's exploring the deep ocean, Earth's largest yet least explored habitat, and see some of the unique fascinating graphics made by Fernando Baptista. That's all in the show notes right there on your podcast app.

The producers of Overheard include Kyrie Douglas and senior producer Brian Gutierrez. Our senior editors are Eli Chen. Our manager of audio is Carla Wills. Our executive producer of audio is Davar Ardalon, who edited this episode. Hans Dale Sue composed our theme music and engineered this episode. This podcast is a production of National Geographic Partners. The National Geographic Society is committed to illuminating and protecting the wonder of our world and funds the work of the National Geographic explorers who recorded the sounds heard in our Sound Bank trivia—Babak To Freshii, Vijay Ramesh, and Ashley Lillis. Michael Tribble is the vice president of integrated storytelling. Nathan Lump is National Geographic's editor-in-chief, and I'm Jacob Pinner, your host and producer.

Thanks for listening and a big happy birthday to National Geographic! [Music]

Thank you! [Music]

Thank you!