Douglas Murray on People's Need for Religion

The Joe Rogan Experience.

I think we talked about this before in relation to the Communist era in Eastern Europe. That sort of part of the point that you, the humiliation of going along with things you know aren't true, ends up having an effect down the road because you just nod anything along.

Yeah, I have a friend who grew up Mormon, and one thing she said to me once was really interesting. She said, uh, because she left the church, and she said, "I'm really susceptible to [ __ ] it's a real problem." Wow. And so she started like she had gotten mixed up with some like Yogi type people and Guru type people, right? People that were running like these weird little sort of like self-help things that were very cult-like.

And she goes, "I have a real problem, I'm very susceptible." She goes, "because I I grew up agreeing to things that are nonsensical." And because of that, because I had just like given all of my, you know, what, when you just like all of your opinions are decided by a church and the church is written by a 14-year-old boy in 1820, yeah like it's kind of nuts.

Yeah, and that already had a conviction for fraud. Yeah, he was already full of [ __ ] at 14. That was a giveaway.

Yeah, that was a definite giveaway. Well it's, I mean, just if you read the tenets of the religion, first of all they're wonderful people Mormons.

Yeah, I agree, I agree. I don't like beating up on Mormons because they're so nice.

Yeah, it's like actually if there were more Mormons, right, it wouldn't be it was so bad, you know, if you could just take out the crazy, yeah, you got a good religion.

Um, I, uh, wow how much crazy, anyway. Um, but that's, it's sort of the same principle sort of applies to when people just accept, you know, like with wokism, except these ideological Givens that aren't logical, they don't make any sense.

I wonder if it's the same with societies, you know? I think that, uh, it's a thing like post-religious peoples. Just because you've lost the religion doesn't mean you've lost the religious instinct, right? You're still looking for it.

It seems like that's an inherent part of being a person. I agree, and I don't think, I don't say it's bad, it's just it is part of what we are. And, uh, it seems to me very clear that, for instance, you know, you take Christianity out and other things will be put in, and they don't even need to be identifiable religions.

Right? Uh, I mean our own age has decided in much of the West that there's this sort of form of uh, watered-down spillover of Christianity which will become the sort of religion which is the kind of diversity, inclusion, equity world where you constantly struggle for greater justice, all of which is a sort of very watered-down version of a little bit of Christianity.

There's a clear Genesis of that too in the woke world. There was a group at a certain point in time. Do you remember when the atheist movement had hit this atheist plus movement?

Do you remember atheism plus? What was that? It was weird, and it was a bunch of these weird virtue signaling male feminist types that were adding a group of core values.

Oh, what about, you know, being anti-discrimination, anti-sexist, anti-racist? Their own Ten Commandments. Yes, and so they called it atheism plus, and I remember watching this guy give this speech, this [ __ ] boring speech on this sort of establishing this idea that because you don't have a religion, um, so we're going to be atheists but with plus, we can establish sort of a moral framework.

Well, it's totally understandable, uh, and a disaster, of course. And most, um, even if the ideas are good, it's like you're putting it in an ideology, you're creating a dog, you're creating all those new atheists who sort of started in the 2000s.

I got friends, Sam Harris and others. They, in my experience, they all got a little bit nervous about what was on their shoulders.

Christopher Hitchens certainly did. He started, I think, laterally in his life to get a little bit nervous about what was happening. I remember once asking him what about, he said people were starting to ask him to officiate at their weddings.

Oh yeah, and that was like he he didn't say anything of what he said was wrong. He still obviously believed everything he believed, but like that's a slightly troubling place to be in because you start to sense people are wanting you to replace the vicar or the priest.

And that's, and that's not the point. Then you're in Life of Brian territory, aren't you? Like you know, I want, you know, you should all think for yourselves.

Yes, we all think for ourselves. It was always a problem of atheism. It was like it was an invitation to not do one thing, yeah, but it didn't, but nothing follows from it as to how you should live your life.

And if it's the start of something, it's not by any means a beginning of a policy. Do you think that's just an inherent thing about being a tribal primate? That we have this desire to have someone wiser, a leader?

And then even better if you can have like a god-like figure who gives you a set of rules that you have to follow or there are horrendous consequences and it keeps everyone in line?

Yeah, absolutely. I always, um, in the 2000s, I started to think if somebody came along and declared prophethood at the moment, well they could do quite well.

I mean think of those, those hostesses on U.S. television who still take money from people saying that they can only build the church and have their helicopter if you send in your dollars, you know.

Those people still exist. There's a guy who's still selling his like silver water that he blesses from the River Jordan or something, it comes out some hose of its Garden in Texas, you know.

Yeah, and there are people who've been busted repeatedly and they're still, uh, they're still selling their wares.

Um, I always thought, yeah, if somebody actually made the profit claim in our era, I think people would be surprised how many people would go along with it.

It's what is the late George Steiner, um, described, a phrase I love, the Nostalgia for the Absolute. I love that phrase, a Nostalgia for the Absolute.

I think a lot of people have it. I have it, we all have it to some extent and the question is whether you can avoid it taking you to places that um, would demoralize you and lead you to a bad place.

Yeah, it's, I think if someone came along and had a really good cult, like a real solid cult, like really well laid out, well laid out, be rational, think for yourself, be kind, examine all evidence, like people join into that.

And then it would, it always ends up with like a massive orgy, doesn't it?

Yes, it does. It always said something, you got to give me all your money.

Exactly, like wild wild country. It's like, oh, it's all about peace and it's like, nah, now you got a school of women.

Wild wild country is amazing, that documentary is so good. I love that, that Osho had some really interesting, you still see his, um, books in some places like in the Netherlands they had his books still in the bookshop.

So you could buy them on Apple, on the Apple bookstore. I've read a couple of them.

I do like that bit where he says, he says in one of his speeches he says, "the people are [ __ ] by the people for the people, but the problem is the people are [ __ ]. It should be by the [ __ ] for the [ __ ]."

It's like, oh my God, a guru is saying that. And it's something about the fact that he's dead now and then, yeah he said it decades ago.

It's like, but we are fine, we are searching for things at the moment.

Yeah, it seems very obvious to me. I mean that is, you know, what plenty of people have called them like things like the religion of anti-racism, the religion of social justice, all that stuff, they are all something to do, you know?

Yes, uh, some very, very deep level, like you've had your purpose today, like you've had your five fruit and veg, you had your meaning.

Yeah, you've had your meaning.