The Ideology of Hamas | John Spencer

Back to that human sacrifice strategy. Like nobody will to include these kids on college campus won't listen to the words that Hamas say, like they imagine some AG grieved. And I know you've covered this a lot about that: who's the oppressed and who's the oppressor? You won't take the organization's words and actions for what they are. So a human sacrifice strategy that nobody has done—Nazis, Japanese, ISIS—where they state and act in a way that they say they need as many of their population to die as possible to achieve their political goal of the war. Right?

Okay, so it seems to me that there would be two tiers to that then. So tell me if I've got this wrong. I mean my sense with regards to the Palestinians in general, and this is especially true in Iran, is that the Iranian powers that be would use all the Palestinians as sacrificial victims at any moment if they could provide an effective thorn in Israel's side and in the side of the West. And then my sense is too that the Hamas leadership, given its history, is sufficiently corrupt—financially and economically—and under the sway of Iran as well, so that it has no qualms whatsoever about using its citizens as cannon fodder for its designs on Israel and the West. Is there anything— is that accurate?

I mean, Anis, I think so. I mean Iran's willingness to sacrifice all its proxies, that's pretty rational. Well, why wouldn't they? I mean, you know, apart from what you might regard as humanitarian concerns, which I don't really think apply in the current situation. Again, take them for the words—the Iran strategy—they call Israel the little Satan, right? America the great Satan, and want to destroy both through the use of this exporting of terrorism and the pursuit of a nuclear weapon. Yeah, like they say these.

Yeah, right. Well, that seems to be exactly what's happening. But the difference is, Hamas I don't think you can classify as cannon fodders. Again, listen to the words they say; they need—because they believe in their ideology—that martyrdom is the path. So they're willing to martyr all of their population to achieve their political goal—not to achieve some geographic ideal of a new place. Their goal stated and written is the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews in the world, and their path to that is the death of their population that they act.

Okay, so you're saying that it isn't only that the civilians are being manipulated by the Hamas leadership in Iran, but that they're participating in this as a consequence of the fundamental doctrine of Hamas? Correct?

Right, okay. So then I guess my question would be, to what degree are the Palestinian citizens, especially the younger ones—and I suppose this is partly what the compassionate people on the university campuses are getting at. I mean, if you're 15, 16 years old, and you've been bombarded by Iranian propaganda since you were even younger than that into believing that your best pathway forward is martyrdom, then to what degree can you be held responsible for the fact that you believe it?

And so what? I mean, I have the same conundrum for example with regards to the protesters on American campuses. I mean, a lot of these kids have been propagandized throughout high school into this victim-victimizer narrative, and they buy it completely. And it's very unfortunate, and I think that they're very dangerous in consequence. But I've seen the consequences of that propaganda among young people; it's very demoralizing, and it's also extremely effective.

We did a study in 2016 looking at the predictors of support for politically correct authoritarianism, which is very relevant with regards to what's happening on campus. One of the things we found was that even having had one politically correct course at any time in your life was a significant predictor of sympathy with politically correct authoritarian views. Now there were other predictors; not being very bright was one of them—right? So low verbal IQ, while that's relevant, you know, low verbal IQ is a good predictor comparatively speaking; and so was being female and having a feminine temperament, and the fourth best predictor was ever having been propagandized.

So how much of the doctrine that's—I know maybe I'm taking you out of your area of specialty here, you know, because this is more about political or even a theological question—but how much of the propaganda story that's driving the Palestinian civilian cooperation with Hamas do you think is a consequence of planned propaganda and how much?

Oh yeah, I mean, this is—so this is the problem with the ramifications of this war, right? Because it would be a proven Iranian strategy: spend decades radicalizing the culture from primary school on the books, the payment structure, you know, the pay-for-slave program of the Palestinian Authority—all those are multi-decade approaches to radicalize a population to achieve your political goals. So absolutely that's there. From my expertise, though, this is where I think we will definitely reach that point in the war against Hamas in Gaza: how do you defeat an ideology? That's for sure.

Right. I work in the world of strategy and war, but I am fighting on a daily basis now with people who have spent their PhDs in counterterrorism and counterinsurgency saying that you're creating more enemies or more terrorists than you're killing, right? Because of the military.

Right, right. So it's a— even if there's a short-term victory, that doesn't mean that you're ensuring the long-term victory—quite the contrary.

Right, right. And do you think that's happening in Gaza?

It's bullocks. It's a fallacy of thinking, and I think it's anti-intellectual.

Okay, okay, explain why that's like saying you cannot remove Hitler and the Nazi regime or dismantle its military because you'll further radicalize the German population who believe in the Nazi ideology.

Okay, well you can imagine a circumstance under which that might occur, but the one that you just laid out obviously didn't occur. Quite the contrary, the defeat of the Nazi regime meant—really meant, all things considered—the defeat of the Nazi ideology.

Okay, so well, so let's go back to Hamas. Yes, what do you think the Israel strategy is at the moment? How is that playing out? Are they being successful? Do you think it's a good strategy, and do you think it has a chance at defeating this ideology? I mean, if it's fostered by Iran.

Okay, I haven't been able to envision what a pathway to victory for the Israelis looks like.

Okay, so tell me what you think about that.

So, I actually got to go visit—you know, I've been into Gaza twice—in December in Hamas tunnels and in February with the IDF in conun. I interviewed the Prime Minister; I'm like, what are your strategic goals? You gave to the military. I interviewed the head of the IDF, multiple subordinate commanders. The objectives for Israel, the path to victory—which is—it’s always hard to define that war, right?

Right, because now at this point, there are already people who have said it's a strategic failure for Israel already, and the war is not even know.

Yeah, but it is very clear what the objectives are. Number one: bringing the hostages home. So of the 240 hostages taken on October 7th, it's a clear war goal to bring them home. Okay, and Israel has brought over half of them home; there's 124 left in Gaza. The other one was to remove Hamas from power and dismantle its military capability.

Right, okay, but then the question is: who exactly is Hamas? How do you distinguish them from the civilians? And what are the—you said you can respond proportionately, so you're going to remove Hamas's military capacity, but if Hamas is, in some ways, indistinguishable from the Palestinian civilian population, then how do you know when you've won?

Right, and in a manner that's going to matter in the future.

I love this. I love this. Most people don't ask, how do you distinguish in a situation like this where Hamas is using human sacrifice, where there’s not a single Hamas military building in Gaza?

Right, right, not one. So how do you move forward?

I actually want the laws of war upheld. There's actually very clear guidance even with a non-state actor not wearing a uniform what classifies a combatant or non-combatant or as a person partaking in the hostilities. As in, you're shooting at the idea; you're a combatant person, clear.

Now, who's in Hamas? This is actually my visit to the IDF: they have a board, like walls, of every member of Hamas's military, from brigade commander, battalion commander, company commanders—and either X's were killed and captured as they're breaking apart. The goal of dismantling a military is never just, like we talked about in the beginning, to destroy all of them, to kill every member of Hamas. It's never been that in war.

And always—after the war, once you remove that power, whether it is the Japanese emperor or Hitler himself, there're still going to be tens of thousands of—you have to reconcile them. You have to do deradicalization programs, you have to disarm people, right? Those are—and that is possible. It's possible! Proven! Everything worked in Germany, worked in Japan. I can't tell you what that looks like the day after, but I can tell you it will never even begin to work if Hamas stays in power.