I Watch 3 Episodes of Mind Field With Our Experts & Researchers

(soft music) (eerie sound) - Hey Vsauce! Michael here. Every episode of Mind Field is now free to view all over the world, all 24 episodes, all three seasons. Whoa! It is really exciting. And it's why I've invited you hear to Vsauce headquarters. Why watch Mind Field alone when you could watch it with me and some of the researchers, writers, scientists and teachers who are in the episodes who made Mind Field what it is? That's right, we are about to have ourselves a Mind Field marathon. We are going to watch three episodes in their entirety, pausing throughout to talk more deeply about the concepts in the episodes, it's gonna be very exciting, and it's all going to happen right in here, follow me. After you. (eerie sound) We're going to begin with an episode that helped new research happen and improved the lives of some very special children. Season Two, Episode Six, the Power of Suggestion. (upbeat music) This is McGill University in Montreal, Canada. It boasts an enrollment of more than 40,000 students from 150 countries, the campus employs 1700 professors, teaching 300 programs of study, and it's proud to be home to 12 Nobel Prize winners, it is considered one of the finest research universities in the world. Recently, researchers at McGill have embarked on a study that uses a brain scanning device to read people's minds and implant thoughts into their heads, or so their subjects think. Now the same device may be able to help kids with ADHD, anxiety, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, migraines, Tourette's, and more. This study is not about technology. The MRI machine behind me may look impressive, but it's a sham, it's deactivated, non-functioning. What this study is really about is faith in science. It's about the power of thoughts to heal. All you need is the power of suggestion. (machine humming) (upbeat music) A placebo is something that shouldn't work, but due to the power of suggestion, and because of the strength of our belief, does, but we don't fully understand yet how they work, there could be an evolutionary explanation. For example, if a small child hurts themselves, negative symptoms like pain and crying can be good. They keep the child safe and still, while signaling adults to come help. When help arrives, even if it has no active effect, the child's brain may feel it has permission to redirect resources away from seeking help and on to actually healing. Modern medicine has found a way to harness this power by prescribing placebos. But not all placebos work the same. For example, a sugar pill will help your headache more if given to you by a doctor than by a poker buddy, and the color of the placebo matters too. A blue pill will work to make you feel calm, better than a white pill, because blue is a more calming color. And a red pill will keep you awake and give you more energy than a blue pill will. A capsule will work better than a pill because it looks more important. (upbeat music) And we're gonna stop right there because one of my guests already has a comment. Let me first introduce who the guests are. Daniel Toker is a PhD candidate at Berkeley who has been writing and researching for Mind Field at least season two and three. - Yep. - Yeah. - Yep, and the Fear episode season four. - And the Fear episode, which isn't even out yet, but it might be by the time you watch this, in which case, it's out already! Thanks, Daniel. On the far right side, we have Elisabeth de Kleer, who worked on season three as a producer, writer. She's a science communicator, science documentary filmmaker, but I save the middle for last because Dr. Samuel Veissière from the Culture, Mind and Brain lab at McGill University, one of the CO directors is here. And he's also going to be featured quite prominently in this episode. You'll see him soon. And he is the one who told me, Stop let's talk, because we're gonna talk about placebos. And I just mentioned in the episode that the color of a pill affects how it can make you feel. A blue pill will tend to be more calming because so many of us associate blue with calming. However, we need to be, when you put a star on so many of us. - Yeah, so reportedly in Italy, blue pills don't have a calming effect because people associate the color blue with the soccer jersey of the national soccer team. So they tend to associate it with a kind of a feeling of arousal and not calmness. So it's interesting to try to parse out the different effects of some colors. Red seems fairly universal as something that triggers high arousal, but not blue. - Is that because red is the color of blood, you think? - I'm really not sure. I mean, as you know, we seem to have some inbuilt attentional biases towards red like say the little buzzing red lights on smartphones work really well that way because we tend to automatically attend to them. It could be blood, yeah, could be fire even because we also have an attentional bias towards fire. - Wait, but how universal is this? Have studies looked at Papua New Guinea and populations there that don't watch the movies and don't have the stories that we have in America or in Europe? I mean, is this something that, you said in built? Is it really? - I'm not aware of all the studies, I think red for sure is something for which we have a relatively innate attentional bias, red processes salient in the environment. - This is so much of it depends on the person, like there could be a person here in America for whom red is really calming because of their particular circumstances. - Yeah, it's actually funny, I just got back from China yesterday. So I flew in. And one of the things you notice even from the sky, looking down over Chinese cities is how much red lighting there is, big red LEDs. And so I associate red with stop, like if red, it's meant to catch my attention, It's sort of alarming. But in China actually, it's ubiquitous. And it's more just like a color of good luck. Most restaurants have their title of the restaurant in red. So it's also meant to catch your attention, to simulate arousal but in less of like a negative way that it can sometimes be here in the United States, so red street sign isn't necessarily gonna be. - So probably the emotional valence is conditioned and culturally contingent on some level. But that red is gonna be salient, is gonna be something that we can automatically attend to. That's fairly universal. - And once we attend to it, how we feel may depend a lot on the culture that we're from. - Right. - But I think the point is that even things like the color and size and shape of a pill and who gives it to you will affect how it works. It's not just the chemical properties of the medicine, there's so much more, so much in the mental world. - Well, I mean, but that also is chemical ultimately, right? Because if it's a blue pill or red pill, that's gonna affect your neuro chemistry in some way. - And you know what, why is it red or blue? Because of the physical shape of the molecules? The shape? - Right. - Wow! So, right, I guess this is gonna be a question I wanna keep coming back to how do we really define a placebo? Because I think in the episode, I say something like there's no active ingredient that should cause that effect. But yet, if a pill is calming, because it happens to be blue, because its molecular structure reflects blue light the best, then there is something chemically in that pill that works in calming you. And it's not because the ingestion helps, it's just the color alone. - Right, right. I guess it's easier to define what's not a placebo, as something that works better than a placebo? - Well, that's why another term for placebo effects are nonspecific effects, or nonspecific factors. So whatever factors involved in healing that we cannot attribute to the chemical substance that is targeted in the treatment. And there are also non specific effects in psychotherapy even that are, so tone of voice setting, waiting times. So placebo is really a filler term for all these different psychosocial symbolic ritual factors that we don't fully understand, but that we know contribute to a cure somehow. - Right? So those are called non specific, the specific ones. How are they defined they are. - So the specific one would be the actual analgesic property of a pill, for example, has been well studied in RCT, we know it produces that effect. But then we know that there are other effects around and beyond that, that also contribute to healing. And in the case of an actual placebo procedure, where we know that specific molecule is not actually present in the pill, but healing will still happen, then we need to investigate these different effects, these different factors. That are nonspecific. - Maybe this works, a nonspecific, non placebo effect of a medicine would be what works, even when it's administered to someone in a coma, who doesn't know what's happening, doesn't know who's administering it. But we know that that molecule in the blood causes blood pressure to go down, or whatever, causes pain to be felt less, I don't know. - But be careful because there are placebo effects have been found, for example, in nonverbal autistic children, who for sure cannot understand the nature of the suggestion, because, of course, if you have some kind of an idea about a therapeutic target and a mechanism of action, so I have a headache, and this one pill removes the headache, then that will greatly help in the placebo effect. But what about the case of autistic nonverbal children who have no idea, who don't expect anything, and yet there's an effect, there's a social cognitive component to placebo effects, you have to be able to expect what other people expect of you even implicitly. So probably in the case of the nonverbal autistic children, it's also say, the reassuring tone of voice of the parent, the parents shifted expectations, the sort of contagious hope that might work. And the same mechanism, same social mechanism might be involved in dogs and in advanced social species through observation and kind of social emotional contagion. - Very cool. All right, guys, let's get back into the episode. You ready? Here we go. Also, an injection will work better than a capsule, because it seems more serious and potent. There's even evidence that fake or Sham surgeries have positive effects. It may be fake medicine, but the effects can be real. And not just because the patient feels better psychologically, we're talking real physical healing, thanks to the power of the brain. - [Dr. Samuel] So again, briefly, can I say something Michael? - [Michael] Yeah, let's stop. - Well, I'm really glad you're pointing out all these different dimensions of placebo effects the take home point here is that the more elaborate the procedure, the better it works. And by elaborate I mean, so technologically elaborate, but also motivationally elaborate. So if it hurts a little bit, if you have to wait a long time for it, if it seems really symbolically prominent also. So whatever prestige might be attached to a procedure that will tend to work better and also socially elaborate. So if you can notice improvements in other people, preferably people like you, people from your in group, you can talk to them, that will also help prepare you for the placebo response. - It's amazing. It makes it feel like why even study real medicine, when so much of just the way people think about it, can make a difference. Clearly, there are limits to that. And I wanna revisit that when we start looking at the actual study that we did in this episode, because talk about making it feel technologically interesting. We've got a whole film crew there. Why would a film crew be here unless it's gonna work well? We'll talk about that soon. We'll get right back into it, The Power of Suggestion. I traveled to Montreal to meet local children struggling with debilitating behavioral and neurological conditions, who would soon find out whether their afflictions could be cured by the power of suggestion. - This is Malaya. - Malaya, I'm Michael Nice to meet you. 12 year old Malaya suffers from a common skin ailment, eczema, but she has also developed a skin picking disorder. Dermatillomania. And you're starting High School. What like this year? - Early September? - Wow, that's a big step. So what kind of things worry you? Given the symptoms that you have? - Probably the picking-- - Of your skin? - Yeah, I don't know, I find it satisfying to pick. It's kind of gross. - Why do you can't stop? - I'm not sure. - Have you tried different things that will help you stop? - Yeah, like in my mind, I'm just like, today, you won't pick. You are gonna get rid of this eczema. And then after I'm just like, Oh, wait, my face was bleeding. - Yeah, is it embarrassing? - Yeah, I like to wear long sleeves because my arms are like, if they're really bad, I'm gonna try to wear long sleeves. - How are your arms now? - It's like really bad, so, as you can see. - And that's all just from scratching and picking. - Yeah. - 12 year old Nicholas was troubled by debilitating migraine headaches. So what do you wanna be when you grow up? - Like I really, really wanna be probably a NHL and MOV player, one of those two. - Nicholas's love of sports is unfortunately also the original source of his suffering. Nice. - My first head injury which was concussion, I hit my head on a soccer post, and then I hit my head in a game of hockey. After that I had headaches every single day. I was throwing up having auras. They're like colors that you seen before you have a headache. I wasn't able to go to school, and then we went to the hospital and into their concussion program. - Can I see his migraine chart? - Oh sure, yeah, we have almost two years worth. severe headaches here. Severe migraines. - Every day. - Every single day, this has turned his world upside down. - Nathan was diagnosed with ADHD and impulse control disorder. I'd love to hear especially about you, Nathan. First of all, how old are you? - Nine. - Nine. - How old you are? ' - [Michael] How old do you think I am? - 30. - That's a very good guess, I'm 31. - Oh! - So, tell me about like before Nathan's diagnosis. What were kind of the symptoms you were seeing? - Tantrums all the time. Just an inability to reach him, to communicate to him, to connect to him. That was the main symptom. - And what did you think of this Nathan? Were you like, why are my parents not happy? - 'Cause I was not listening? - Why weren't you? - I don't know, maybe because I had problems. - And as far as like behavior. - Impulsivity, hyperactivity, you're always, always on the edge, always stressed. What is he gonna touch? Where is he gonna go? What is he gonna do? - These families had tried conventional methods to treat their children with little success. But they were about to find out whether their symptoms could be alleviated using an accessory assisted placebo, a fake non functioning MRI machine. This groundbreaking study of the power of suggestion in action is the brainchild of pioneering researchers at McGill University's esteemed Raz Lab, - We study a whole bunch of different Mind, Body interaction topics suggestion, hypnosis, placebo effects, anytime the mind is regulating the body or vice versa, that that's a topic that we study - Now, you said the word placebo. And the device that we are using is a sham scanner. Tell me about the scanner. - What we do with the MRI scanner is we stack so many different layers of deception. In their head, this is a proper neuroscience study done at the Neurological Institute. And that's why we wear a lab coats. That's why we have all of this scientific looking equipment. By the time they've actually started the study. They've already in their mind built up all these different layers of credibility. They really believe that what we're doing is real. - What's interesting is that children they're not immune to the power of neuro enchantment - Neuro enchantment? - Neuro enchantment. - What does that mean? - So it's this idea that there is some kind of medical magic, there is immense power that is attached to the culture of neuroscience, whereby neuro scientific props and accessories, have more healing power, more physiological effects, because culturally, people believe that they do. I mean, the same kinds of cultural cognitive mechanisms are at play in religious systems. So here we are praying to the gods of neuroscience, and biomedicine. - Talk to me about the ethics of lying. - The work we do with children actually does not involve lying, we tell them at first that everything that they see and everything that we do in the lab is a suggestion we explained to them, that suggestion is a way to tap into the power of their mind. And we keep emphasizing even as they go in the scanner, that it is their mind and their brain that is doing the healing, that they're basically reprogramming their own brain. - The parents knew that the scanner was a placebo. But for the study to work, the children had to believe in the procedure. So before they visited the lab, I enlisted a few YouTuber friends to help raise their expectations. - Hey, guys, today, we have a huge surprise for you about something brand new in science that could affect your day. - Oh, I know them. - Well, today, we learned about this amazing new machine that teaches kids brain how to heal super fast, - We really hope that you get a chance in person to see how this machine works. - With a little help from the machine, you can focus better, you can be more confident, and it can even take away some headaches. - Awesome. - Not too many people get the chance to have this awesome experience, but we hear the scientists in Canada-- - I gonna have it? - Yeah, and it's very cool. So what do you hope the machine allows you to do? It makes you better at. - Better at concentrating, better at focusing. - I wanna heal faster, and this probably be a good idea. - All right, so I wanna talk about a couple of things. One, this episode is really different from a lot of Mind Field episodes because we're treating people in it. And we're following their stories. A ungenerous way to look at this is that in this episode, we're lying to children and performing fake medicine on children. Dr. Veissière, what are your thoughts? - So if you carefully examine what we say, it is correct that we never tell a lie, that we explain the mechanism correctly. However, to be completely honest, we do probably rely on the children's to some extent uncritical faith in the healing power of the machine on the one hand, and their own brain. And this is because we know it is very effective for people to be able to relax their worries and their critical thinking and to surrender to some kind of an idea that they have of an external locus of control. Now, note here how both the brain and the machine are basically an agency other than their conscious self. So we tell them, the machine will help your brain heal itself, it is your brain that is doing the healing. But it is much more efficient, for the children to at least initially believe that the machine has some kind of special power. - I think I even remember you telling me that you would tell the parents flat out the machines not even plugged in. And then the next day that they came in, they would say, but is this safe? Because how can it be safe? We're in the basement of a neuroscience lab, and this machine is really big and noises are being played. - Not even that they would ask, so did you find out what's wrong with my child's brain? They wanted us to comment on neuro imaging results. And we would have to pull them aside again and say do to remember? We're not doing actual neuro imaging, we're not, you've competent to comment on findings that are not even there, they would forget. - They would forget. - They would forget because all the queues are in place. And I think it would demand so much mental effort to remember that this is sham, that people revert to a kind of adaptive self deception. So this is also what we're aiming for. We're aiming to tap into the children's ability to self deceive, which we know can be very effective, like say, if you're really, really nervous before giving a talk, and then you managed to convince yourself that you're not nervous, then lo and behold, you start feeling confident. Now initially, there might have been some self deception. But then if the results are good, then it's no longer deception. - This is what I really love about all the episodes and all the work that we've done together. Because we also worked on the reverse exorcism putting a spirit in someone that, okay. In a way, we're almost finding some truth to pseudo scientific practices. If I have some mental block or some behavior I don't want. And my mother takes me to a person who prays to crystals and whatever, that crystal has no chemical mechanism with which to help me. However, if I truly believe that this is significant, and I noticed that I'm being cared for that people care so much, and I think so much more about my behavior, because of all of that, I can actually get better. And that's what we're doing here. But instead of using crystals, and whatever, we're using science looking stuff, lab coats, and an MRI, and imaging of brains on the computer screens around and it just feels like this must be serious and real. But in reality, they may as well be laying on a bed while someone sings nonsense words to them. - And I like the parallel that you draw. It's true that a lot of spiritual healing practices they draw on these transitional objects, you could call them so things like amulets, or stones or rocks, or even magic, crosses that people can sort of attribute healing power to without having to worry, it becomes a convenient way to instill hope in people. - All right, let's get right back into it. - I hope he heals me with my concussions and now I hope my headaches go away. - I was about to take part in something remarkable. The very first use of accessory assisted suggestion on children with these kinds of symptoms. Mind Field would play an integral role in the study, and the results could be new and significant for science. (upbeat music) On the day of the first session, several measures were put in place to heighten the children's neuro enchantment. - Nathan. - Nathan! - [Michael] A friendly fake nurse, a walk down a long, impressive hallway (Malaya exhaling) And a 10 minute anticipation building wait outside the lab, then it was time for their first scan. - [Doctor] Shall we? - [Michael] While the hypothesis of this study was grounded in science. This was Dr. Veissière and Jay Olsen's first time testing their theory on real children with real disorders. And they didn't know if it would work. - You may lay down if you'd like. - I have a question, so it seems to me that placebos work, in part, because people these subjects have a lot of faith in medical science. Did you study that at all? Or ask them at all about that? I mean, and I guess my question is, for somebody who's very skeptical of medical science, who doesn't feel like doctors are working to their benefit, would they still be as susceptible to a placebo? - Well, a lot of people might say they're critical of medical science. But for example, if they have acute appendicitis, their first intuition will be to rush to the ER. And for belief to be really effective, it needs to be culturally widespread. And we happen to live in a historical moment where most of the solutions to our everyday ailments are deemed to be found in medicine, and children are receptive to these kinds of cues, even implicitly, even if they don't know that they know. So I think, try it out at home for example, if you have like a five year old niece, show her a picture of a builder, and then a doctor with a stethoscope and ask your niece, which one is the smartest? For sure they're gonna point to the doctor, because they've picked up on a cultural consensus that this is where, elaborate knowledge lies. At the same time, I'm not aware of any studies, testing medical placebos on people who are really skeptical of medicine who are completely into alternative medicine, it may be that it wouldn't work with them. I think it's a good hypothesis. - Also, is there such a thing as an anti placebo? Where (laughs) and what I mean by that? - For sure. - Yeah okay. So that's like somebody who's skeptical, so even something that's potent, even if you give them a potent drug, they don't react to it, because they're so skeptical about it-- - Yeah, right, that's another thing, nocebo is something different. What is that, though? Where, because of all the done specific crap surrounding a chemical mechanism that should work, it works less well, because of the context. - That's really interesting. Yeah, that might very, very interesting. And it may be that people who are a little too high in analytical reasoning, people who are not very suggestible, people who are not very prone to social influence, may also reverse placebo themselves inadvertently, because they're too critical because they can't let the self regulatory magic happen. But it could be that at the social level, or naive beliefs in some things like say, some categories of illness that may not be scientifically validated. But just because people believe they have these symptoms, like say, certain food intolerances, or certain allergies that appear to be on the rise. Well, there's some psychogenic factors involved in that and then might have something to do with collective nocebo effects. And then the next problem is also letting people know that they're genetically at risk for a particular condition, sometimes may trigger the symptoms, or may even trigger the condition in a way that not knowing might have been better. - Ignorance is bliss-- - Ignorance is often bliss. - I think it's very ethically tricky, then. - It's very ethically tricky, because you have to tell people, but then there are also risks associated with telling. - That's why you might not wanna do a personal genetics test, - Right? Well, we're about to test that in the lab as well, because we think there's interesting neuro enchantment effects associated with belief in genetics. So we're about to do a study with Sham personalized feedback. So Sham, swab and genetic. it's a placebo analgesia condition. So we give people a shock and pain. And we tell them that in one condition, we've tailored the machine to one particular genetic polymorphous that they have, and we fully expect that is gonna work better in that condition, but we haven't tested it yet. And then eventually, one of our dreams is to also test in a kind of, three on trial to do Sham neuroimaging versus Sham genetic testing to see which one has the strongest effect. - Ah! What's your hypothesis? Which do you think we as a society believe more in? Neuroimaging or genetic testing? - I'm really not sure, I think we're moving towards believing more in genetic testing, but the belief might still be culturally new. Whereas belief in the power of neuroscience are very well installed culturally, we're more than, two decades after the decade of the brain. So I would say in 10 years, it'll probably be genetic testing. For now, it depends on levels of exposure. But for sure, like say for children, the idea of a gene is still very, very opaque, very nebulous, very esoteric, whereas putting them in this enormous machine and this authoritative hospital might-- - Might always be better than just swabbing their mouth and telling them something. Let's get back into the episode, you guys ready? Okay, here we go. One of my roles was to help build up the children's belief that it would work. As you go into the machine, you'll relax more and more. Would you like to relax slowly or quickly today? - I can go in quickly, - Quickly? - Oh, Wow, nice. - Very good. Although the MRI scanner was completely deactivated, we needed the kids to believe it was fully functional. So Jay played a series of realistic sound effects to signify that the machine was working. While Dr. Veissière planted the suggestion that it would help the patient heal. - You may notice some unusual feelings, perhaps a tingling, your brain is continuing to learn and to heal. And to help you find this constant feeling of confidence. - [Michael] If all went well, the placebo effect of the Sham brain scanner would convince the children's conscious minds that real neuroscience was at work. - A deep, deep breath. - [Michael] This would allow their subconscious minds to harness the power of their brains to heal themselves. - For people with migraines, it's often in the front or the back part of the head but it could also be like a feeling like outside the head. So I'm not sure what it's gonna be like for you. We'll find out afterwards. So we'll now slide you in. - Cool, it's like a roller coaster. I love roller coasters. - The deeper you go in, the more you'll relax. - Okay, I wanna go all the way deep I feel more stronger beeps. - I know this is because you're already at level three. You might notice a deeper feeling of relaxation. - [Nathan] Yes, I can feel it. Can we go a little bit deeper please? - [Michael] Yes. - [Nathan] I want my whole entire feet Nice. - [Michael] The scientists at McGill believe the children's brains have always had the ability to control their symptoms. The children just needed to believe it themselves. (Nathan sneezing) - [Dr. Veissière] Yeah, so the beeps can sometimes make people sneeze as a sign that they're relaxing just very deeply. Right? Very well, you did very, very well Nathan. - [Michael] The children all appear to enjoy the procedure and the researchers and I did our best to reinforce their neuro enchantment. - So when you heard the first set of beeps and the second set of beeps Did you notice feeling them in different parts of your body? - Well, the first time I went in the machine, I kind of felt the hair. - Okay, good. - What level was she taken to today? - Level two. - Level two! - [Dr. Veissière] Yeah, level two is great, yeah. - [Michael] Yeah. - When I was in the machine, I felt like I was going backwards and forwards. - Okay, that's very good, that's very good sign. You might have noticed how you were yawning. - I wanna go to sleep. - That's great. - [Michael] For a kid with hyperactivity, Nathan was already appearing calmer. But before our young subjects left the lab, Dr. Veissière bolstered the suggestion that today's session would help them continue their healing process. - So I know for sure that you're gonna be more relaxed, much, much less anxious, I would not be surprised at all. If the scratching really diminished to no scratching at all. The amazing thing about the brain is that it has this fantastic power to heal itself. But now what we've been able to do here with the power of suggestion is to get your brain to work faster and better all the time. So how do you feel? - Amazing. - [Dr. Veissière] Oh, nice. - [Michael] Mind Field provided the Raz Lab with Octopus by Joy, Smartwatches. - [Nathan] Lefty rules. - [Michael] They were specially programmed to remind the children in between visits, that their brain was healing itself. - Just having the watch with you will make you feel better. But it's not the watch, or it's not the machine that's making you feel good, it's your own brain. - Okay, I just stopped it, because I wanna say, at this time when this was filmed, smart watches were like a whole cool brand new thing. Everyone was excited, the kids were like Oh! And we had to be like, it's not like an Apple Watch, it's just for your brain health, which is better. Tell me about the watches, because I don't think in the episode, we focused enough on what their role was. - The idea was to work on placebo conditioning. So first we enlisted a response in the scanner, with a mixture of hypnotic suggestions, anticipation and all the effects that you showed. Now once we've found a target response, like say relaxation, or self regulation some other way, then we get the kids to expect that when they receive a little buzz from the watch. They're going to keep experiencing whatever effect we were listening. So usually respect, relaxation, focus, and so forth. So then we programmed different delivery schedules for the children where they would get a little buzz and a little friendly icon and then it would remind them Oh, I guess I'm doing great. And then we had them come back after two weeks in the library, I would decrease the delivery schedule of the buzzes because I didn't want them to become too addicted to them. And eventually after a third week, there would be no more buzzes. So they could play around with the icons, because I didn't want them to rely on the buzzes. But then yeah, as you pointed out, a lot of the kids still wanted to have the watch as a kind of a transitional object like a little blanky, that helps you sleep or an amulet or a special ring that people have. - You may have heard us say a few times. Oh, you're at level three. Today, you got to level two, is completely made up. There were no levels. But yet the kids really read a lot into that. - And then they became more and more proud each time they know they went deeper. And they surrender themselves to the-- - Well, of course they did because no matter what happened or how they felt they were told that's good. Oh, wonderful, oh, really? - We were validating everything they felt. - Every thing. - Was the level thing planned? Or what that improvised on camera? - No, we kind of I think we improvised it on camera. And then we stuck to it. Because we saw that it worked really well. - Well, yeah, I just allowed Samuel to guide the whole thing. I sat there and I would just back him up. I'm wearing a lab coat as well. So I go, uh, oh wow. And it was almost hard sometimes to not laugh because he'd be like, Ah, yes. Well, oh, you feel sleepy? Oh, that means you're very advanced. And I'd be like he said about everything. (laughing) It was so funny! And I was always excited to see what level he would say they reached because it gave me a sense of how much further you wanted to go with them. - Right, right. And because as you remember, we had many more kids than we what ended up showing on camera. And we had great results with all of them. - Right, so let's talk about that. So you see three children featured here in this episode. But I believe there were seven, eight or nine that we actually worked with. - There were 12, - there were 12, Okay, not all 12 could fit into the time constraints in that episode. That's partly why I wanna have this marathon so we can talk more. - You remember Mikey? Really, really hyper, really difficult to get him in the machine. And still, there were lots and lots of improvements at home, he was able to take a shower for the first time he made a friend at camp. And the watch in particular worked really well with him because he was very focused on it. And I made him work really hard to earn that watch. So by the time he got the watch, he was already going in the machine, he was calmer, he was more respectful to his dad. - I think I remember the parents, the dad saying, okay, so we reached a point where your goal was to get the watch off the kid that you don't need to watch after all, your own brain, your own self can control this. But people really want those accessories. And the parents were like, Well, I mean, could you tell them to keep it on? Because it keeps the kid calm, and it makes them more thoughtful. And it makes them more aware of their behavior. - You have kids, right? - Mm-hmm. - Do you use any of these tactics on your own kids? - Absolutely, our very first subject was my son Mathias who suffered from chronic migraines. And we did a lot of work on him. And we had amazing results on his chronic migraines, Mathias, he couldn't make it in the final cut of the episode. But he also helped in the initial study as a child mentor, because we found that a lot of the kids were terrified of getting into the machine. But then if they could speak to another child who had gone through the procedure, and who could talk about how fun and safe it was and how he'd gotten better, then we were able to have much better results. So we use this kind of peer mentoring strategy that we're still using, actually, in the studies that we're running now. But yeah, for sure, I use these kinds of tricks. And I give placebos to my children, all the time. - And then you have your kids peddle the placebos to others, because you're right, we don't show Matia, Mathias? - Mathias, yeah. - We don't show Mathias in the episode, but he was there. And man, the kids believed him so much more than the adults. If he said, Yeah, I get in there like every day, or whatever his schedule was, he was honest about all of this, and he was honest about the good results he was getting. Although let's be very clear, this MRI is just a piece of plastic, it is not plugged in. It does not have the liquid helium in their magnets in anything, it's just plastic. - And Mathias at the time he participated in this study, was still blind to the condition, meaning that he was still somewhat convinced that there was something to the machine even though he understood the language, he understood the concept of suggestion, but there's a part of him that didn't wanna think about that fully. - How can this only be a suggestion if I'm in the basement of a neuroscience lab with this big machine? Clearly, they're lying when they tell me the truth that this is a placebo. All right, let's get back into it, you guys ready? Here we go. In six weeks, we would return to the lab to check in on their progress. (upbeat music) This high tech contraption is pretty much what McGill university's first Sham brain scanner looked like. It was an old discarded hair dryer. But the patients didn't know that. In the original study, 56 undergraduate students were told that it was able to reduce pain, cause amnesia, influence sexual attraction and produce various other impressive effects. The labs new, more modern sham brain scanner shows even more promise, and I was invited to participate in its test on a whole new group of adult subjects. (soft music) - Okay, so you can come in here and just grab a seat. - [Michael] These college students are fully aware of what's possible today with neuroscience. Could even they be neuro and chanted enough to believe in the impossible, that an MRI scanner could read their thoughts? Now, we're looking at cutting edge psychological research. - Okay. - Yes. It's part of the neural activation mapping project. We're gonna be putting you in an MRI. So it's a modified one, it's called a CTMS FMRI. - Okay. - So Combined Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation, Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging, which is a big word just meaning it can both read and influence thoughts. - All right, okay. - So you'll be choosing a number from 10 to 99. - Okay. - And then from looking at your neural activation patterns, Dr. Veissière here will try to infer which number you're thinking. - Interesting, okay. - Okay, great. - [Michael] Most adults know the basics about MRIs, so we made sure to cover every detail. - In the scanner, the magnetism is a lot less. this is good for the documentary team, because it means they can bring cameras, so that said, we do have to remove the metal gadgets. - Got it, all these. - [Michael] After this realistic, but completely unnecessary step, it was time to begin our fake mind reading experiment. (eerie sound) - So we're gonna start the calibration, so try to stay very still. - [Michael] Of course, there was actually nothing to calibrate, but we were conditioning our subjects with the expected procedures, sights and sounds of a real MRI study. (beeping sound) Okay, think of the number one. - [Michael] The subjects were asked to concentrate on the numbers zero to nine, while the machine supposedly mapped parts of their brains. - Think of the number nine. - [Michael] Dr. Veissière and I remained in character at all times, pretending to analyze the subjects brain activity, but the images on our screens were actually old MRI scans from former patients. - [Jay] Is the calibration good? - It looks pretty good to me. - With our subject now primed, it was time to convince her that the scanner could identify a number she was thinking of, by reading her mind, - You're gonna choose a number from 10 to 99. - Okay. - You're gonna hear a beep, then you'll hear a second beep. So you're always making your decision between the two beeps. - Okay. - Good? - Got it. - So I'll slide you in. (soft music) (beep) So hold on to that number for just a second. - Okay. - They're gonna print it out, and then we'll see. - Okay. - It was pretty clear. - [Michael] we pretended to give Jay the results of the MRIs analysis, but actually, Jay was about to add the subjects number to the document with a little sleight of hand. - Okay, so you can say lying down just for a second. What was the number? - 31. - 31, okay, cool. So if you can set up here. - What? (laughing) - So it's pretty close, but it's swapped, uh. - Yeah, okay. - [Michael] That miss was actually intentional. So the results didn't appear to be perfect. Adding to the realism. - So you're doing well, we'll do another trial of this. The same thing, okay, I'll slide you in. (upbeat music) - [Michael] Michelle thought of a new number will the scanner get it right this time? - Super clear. - It's clear. - Really good this time. - [Jay] All right, they think the signal is clear. What was your number? - 27 - Uh, 27 did you say? - 27. - Okay, great, yeah so if you can set up here. - Yes, oh, wow. What? I don't understand, crazy. - So you chose 27? - I did. - And technician got 27 as well. - Yeah, well okay. - Yeah. (Mitchell laughing) - Oh, wow, how does that feel? - I didn't expect it to be so specific. A lot of different areas in the brain could be lighting up Just think of the concept of a number. - [Michael] What do you know, it worked, thanks to the wonders of science, or rather, the skills of Jay, who in addition to being a neuroscientist, happens to be a professional magician on the side. Well, Jay won't reveal the secret of the trick. The mind reading illusion is very similar to The Mentalist tricks that have entertained audiences for over a century. The only difference is that when audiences see the stunt performed in a magic setting, they think it's a great trick, not real science. - The machine had 89. (laughing) - That's cool. - [Michael] However, in the impressive scientific setting of the Raz Lab, these subjects thought our magic trick was real science. - Oh my god (laughing) That's pretty cool. - Dr. Olson is not reading your mind. - Oh, no! - The sounds you're hearing are not magnets. It's just from a speaker. The machine in there is actually deactivated, it's not working. - Well, it's like placebo. - Yeah, that's exactly what it is. Now imagine tapping into this power for other effects, like healing, for example. - Right, wow! - I'm definitely believe the placebo effect is alive and well. (laughing) - All right, so we just saw adults being fooled and certainly lied to. However, the cool thing is that, while we punked the adults, we used that same phenomenon for good with the children. And we don't deceive the children, we just allow them to deceive themselves. I still don't know how the magic trick is done. And I never asked because it's his trick, not mine to know. But when the participants said the number they were thinking of, he managed to somehow get it written on that sheet and the time it took him to be like, yep, that's what it said, and it was phenomenal. And then to hear people say, Oh, yeah, no, I felt tingling, my head felt full. It's like you were just laying on a bed. Nothing was on, nothing was happening. It's all in your imagination. - Well, a little behind the scenes here, you might remember that there was a second condition to that experiment, where we implanted numbers in people's heads. So once we get them to believe that the machine reads their mind. So their minds are blown. And then we inserted numbers in their head. So one of the guys you might remember, say, I thought of the number 45 I hate the number 45. I would never myself, pick that number, the number was just flying into my face. And so it's in that second condition that a lot of them reported, kind of weird feelings like tingling and headaches. - That's right, I totally forgot. It didn't even make it into the episode. But we also said now that we can read your mind, we are going to implant thoughts into your mind, you are going to have a number put into your head, you'll close your eyes and a number will appear that we have put there. And of course, we use the same sleight of hand trick to convince them that that's what happened, whatever they thought they had. Whatever they had thought was what we wanted them to think. And, obviously, that's crazy, like that could be abused so much. But yet we convinced neuroscience postdocs that we were able to do it. - And you might remember we were toying around with doing like just improvising a third condition where we make people speak or like say things or we induce the symptoms of Tourette's. And in retrospect, if we had done that saying the behavior in the reverse exorcism episode, remember, like, we were able to induce all kinds of weird feelings, like even an out of body experience, but we couldn't really get people to speak. We couldn't get the spirit to speak through their mouth. But if you'd have taken them through like two steps like this, to really convince them that this machine is doing something, then we could have gotten participants to do all kinds of wild things. - Yeah, that we branded at time, but I remember that day, you were like, let's just go out on the street, recruit people to come in. I can get them to say bad words. And think that it's being, like they're a puppet of the machine. - Is that related to hypnosis? - Yeah, sure, absolutely. It is hypnosis, it's accessory, ritual assisted hypnosis. - I think that hypnotism is often seen, well, at least I can speak for myself as a nothing but a trick, right? I know that there are cases where it's used clinically. Is it all placebo, though? I mean, what are you really doing when you hypnotize someone? And they need to be susceptible to it. - Have you ever been hypnotized? - No, I think I could respond to being hypnotized like this. Because while I don't have a lot of faith in whoa, Hocus Pocus, hypnotizy, instead, I will be like, this is an MRI, you're wearing a lab coat, whatever is gonna happen is gonna happen. - Yeah, so is hypnosis like placebo that depends what you mean by placebo? But if what you're asking is, is hypnosis, tapping into some, say, autonomic resources that we typically don't have access to volitionally effort fully, then yes. So getting people to somehow relax their hyper vigilance and being being able to tap into or elicits physiological responses that they themselves could not induce voluntarily. Yes. And I think you're correct. The induction ritual of surrendering to the set of suggestions about falling into trance, that's the kind of a cultural bound ritual that works for some people, that may not work for others. But I think that anyone can be hypnotized, as long as you find the right set of what we would call epistemic cues. So you tap into the kind of knowledge, the kinds of things that they're likely to believe in as being authoritative, then you can definitely get people to relax their critical thinking. - So, I'll say I've actually been hypnotized before. And I was very, very skeptical going in. And as the hypnotist was telling me, oh, when you open your eyes, you're gonna forget the number three. I remember thinking to myself consciously, there's no way I'm gonna fall for this. And then he said, Okay, now count to 10. And then I would get to three, and then I would pause, even though I'm telling myself, in my head, I'm saying, I can see the number three, but I just couldn't get it out. - Wow, I need to do this, I need to get hypnotized, because I've always seen it as just a party trick where I'm gonna make you bark like a dog on stage for at a kid's birthday party. And they do, and I'm like they're all faking it. - But you may not be susceptible. So there's a pretty Gaussian distribution of susceptibility. So most people will fall for some things, but not all. Some people will fall for nothing. - Some fall for all - Exactly. - So it's interesting because it is a relatively stable psychological trade, and that's well studied. It doesn't change much throughout the lifetime except in childhood. So between the ages of seven and 14 is when people are more hypnotizable. And some people are so we say their highs or lows, high hypnotizables, low hypnotizables, and there is a normal distribution. - But it's really weird. Actually, I don't know if I'd recommend it. It was a kind of an unpleasant experience to be hypnotized. - I've done more unpleasant things. I think, I wanna talk about that after this episode, kind of talk through some of the more uncomfortable and scary moments, but for now, let's just get right back into the episode. All right, here we go. (soft music) There's evidence that the power of suggestion even works on animals. A study at North Carolina State University found that 86% of dogs receiving real seizure medication had a reduction in seizures, but almost as many a full 79% experienced the same effect from just a placebo pill. Now, we don't know how a placebo effects a dog's brain. But it could be that dogs have learned to associate vet visits and medicine from humans with feeling better. So giving them a placebo could help a dog's brain heal itself. (upbeat music) Quick note, we recorded the scene with that dog so many times. There were so many takes, were you there, Dan? - I was there. - Oh, man, first of all, I don't think a lot of people don't know this. But all those rooftop scenes from season one and two were shot at night. We did a whole week of overnight shoots from 5:00 in the evening to 5:00 in the morning. And so I don't know what time of night that was. But we're all exhausted. - It's like 3:00 in the morning, the dog would climb up to you-- - The dog would jump on me yeah. it was hard to get the dog to wait. And the trainer was like, look, the dog doesn't understand its cue. It just knows that you're gonna give him cheese. It doesn't know what you're saying, And he doesn't know when it's a good moment. The dog was not a great actor. Shall we continue? Here we go. - So first, I'll ask you to lay down again. And of course, you're a total pro at this. - [Michael] For several weeks, the children had undergone sessions in the Sham scanner at McGill University. - Your body continues to relax as we keep unleashing this healing energy. - [Michael] Each time they were reminded that through concentration and relaxation, they were helping heal their own brains. - There we go. Finally, after six weeks of receiving the placebo sessions, it was time to get a report on the results. Malaya suffered from anxiety and a compulsive skin picking disorder. Had she experienced any level of success? It's good to see you. - Good to see you. - Go ahead and take a seat, you're wearing not even, I thought maybe they'd have short sleeves on you've just got a tank top on. Your arms look fantastic. They've really gotten better. And your face I mean, all of it. Why do you think you're better? - I'm guessing it's the machine. - [Michael] Yeah, what about it? - Ah, I'm not really sure how it works. But I'm picking a lot less, sometimes if I see like a tiny flake, I'll just leave it there. - That's a pretty short amount of time for such a big change in the way you think and behave, that's awesome. - I don't really feel the urge to do it as much as I did before, so it's a big improvement I guess. - Yeah, that definitely feels like and sounds like your brain being powerful. - It's obviously doing something, because my arms are better. - Well, you seem a lot more confident holding your head up higher, would you agree Anne Marie? - Yes, she seems less anxious. She's more positive, (mumbles) I was hoping for this. It's more than nice to see her. - Yeah, good work. And as for Nicholas and his migraine headaches. Hey, it's good to see you again, Nicholas. Tell me about the procedure and how you felt afterwards, - It accomplished things that I wanted it to. I haven't had a migraine at all. - [Michael] That's awesome. - And concentration is a big thing that it helped. - Wow! And can I see the symptom charts? - For sure. - So these go back to February. - Yeah, and they're really telling. - And you can see not good, lots going on. But then recently, no migraines at all. That's incredible. - Yeah. - So you said you went to the neurologist. - They thought it was quite remarkable. He hasn't needed any rescue medication and he hasn't needed the preventer. And he's not having migraines. - I'm actually really excited for high school. - [Michael] Both Malaya and Nicholas attribute their improvements to the Sham scanner. They believed it was working for them, and indeed it did. So how did Nathan who suffered from ADHD and impulse control disorder fair over the last six weeks? Well I received a home video from Nathan's mother, with an update on his progress? - So the best part about going through the treatment was just what it did to our son, we noticed a difference in Nathan immediately after the first session, and do you remember what happened? - I slept? - Yeah, he slept something he doesn't do very often during the day, he slept for two hours. He was refreshed, it was just incredible to see it. And then what happened was the entire summer we had him off the medicine, and he did great. He thought about stuff before he did it, we were able to talk things out and it's been fun. So overall, we're very pleased. And we just had such a great experience, so thank you very much. - [Michael] The Children's results are encouraging, and a powerful sign of how effective suggestions and our willingness believe them can be. In time, the kids will understand how all of the power was within them, and not in the scanner. This work is truly cutting edge it hasn't been done before. - Correct. We also think of this as a great new way to do science and to collaborate. - So much more of the public will see what's being done. - Yes, science isn't just about publishing a paper that nobody reads. It's about spreading the ideas that you find. - 100%. - As far as I'm concerned, you're already a co author in our scientific experimental paper. - Wow, very cool. Thank you. (upbeat music) - [Michael] The Children's improvements were caused by the placebo effect. And no deception was used to mask that. The parents knew the machine was deactivated. And the children were only told that it had the power to put a suggestion in their brain, a suggestion that ultimately came from themselves. But surely, the more people learn about placebos and their lack of intrinsic power, the less effective they'll be, right? No, studies show that even when subjects learned that their treatment was a placebo, the positive results do not go away. What the subjects have learned about how to heal themselves remains with them. It was an honor to have been a part of this study. I think this is Mind Field at its best. Using our resources to help researchers with their work and helping the public see how the brain is studied. Placebos can't fix everything. But these kids always had the power to start healing. All they needed was the power of suggestion. And as always, thanks for watching. All right, so that's the episode. Dr. Veissière I have dismissed Elisabeth and Daniel so that we can talk one on one, honestly. - I miss them. - Do you feel the pressure? What are your thoughts now two years after that episode? - Well, my thoughts are we are to take this further. And so I'm thinking lots of directions. One of them is practical. It's kind of unfortunate that the general public is really interested in this. But it's still hard to convince the scientific community and the clinical community, there's something worth pursuing there because it's so weird. So it's been difficult to get research funding, it's been difficult to get our research papers accepted for publication when we try to present this particular project, - How do you do a control in a study on the effectiveness of placebo? Like, do you test it against a different placebo? - Yeah, and that's been one of the comments from reviewers when we try to submit this from publications. And I think it was a really good comment they're asking, okay, so it seems you're doing this really cool, really amazing procedure, you're giving these kids a lot of attention, a lot of positive reinforcement. But what exactly works? And what doesn't work? Is there anything in that intervention that is absolutely necessary or essential? For example, do you actually need the scanner? Could you just go and give kids lots of positive suggestions about how they can use their hyperactivity to be really focused and strong? Or could you do us just a watch, so I can tell you something we're doing right now is, we're beginning to test in a randomized trial, just the watch versus just the machine to see if one of them works better. - Huh, okay, that sounds really nice and precise. - Precise or not? Because even then there's so many other factors, as you know, so say, the charisma, or the reassuring tone of the experimenter. Like I'm sure you're interested in the replication crisis in psychology. So one of the hypotheses is also that well, it could be that some labs are trying to replicate a study. Well, the experimenters are just not as charismatic, there's just not as good or not as authoritative. And there's lots of other factors that are going on. And it's not just a mechanism itself that doesn't work is that this one team is not able to reproduce it. - Man, it's so hard to control for all of those things, a bunch of different people need to run this, but they all have to have the exact same charisma. And every day, no matter what their mood is different from day to day, it can't be. Because we really only wanna look at watch versus machine when we know that the charisma can play such a big role. - Mm hmm, or also, the setting of the study, is it in the hospital? Or is it like right now we're gonna replicate it in a school. Because it turned out that logistically, now that Mind Field is not there to handle recruitment for us, then we just could not manage to bring all the participants in the hospital. And we have a contingent from the school. So it's a lot easier to do it there. And as such, we also have to use a simpler mock scanner. - Right, you know what that brings brings up a big limitation of how Mind Field can help. Because if you said okay, I've got a different experimental design that I think is gonna work really well. But it's very similar. Could you do another episode that will look almost exactly the same? I would love to, but I don't know if YouTube would pay for that. So I hope that Mind Field can at least bring what's being done, and its importance to the public, so that they know what to support and they know what to, I don't know what kind of good things are being done and why it's important for us to have research institutions that are investigating things that might seem I don't know, a little still fuzzy, but yet can lead to amazing discoveries. What are you working on that I don't know about that might be interesting. for future episodes of Mind Field of Vsauce, I know that you were working with tulpamancers. That's still going on? And if so explain what that is. - Sure, so before talking about tulpamancers, we're also doing lots of stuff related to suggestion and placebo studies. So we're testing like, say fake Adderall, fake psychedelics. - [Michael] Fake psychedelics. - Fake psychedelics-- - There's an episode in the first season of Mind Field, where we give people a short acting and psychedelic, and we have Confederates in the room that pretend like, Whoa! Everything's echoing. And sure enough, you can make people think they're tripping. - Absolutely, and we also use Confederates, just like you guys, and we had really good results. - So what are you specifically like, what variables are you kind of tweaking and studying? - Well, we're also interested in the whole battery of non specific psychosocial effects beyond the chemical properties of the substance themselves, including the particular cultural expectations that this psychedelic experience should yield this particular effect. So we're looking at, social proof, social conformity, emotional contagion, but also, testing particular cultural beliefs. We're also going to be testing, Sham genetic testing to see how convincing that might be, and at some point, one of your dream is to compare that to Sham neuroscience, so to see different kinds of neuro enchantment. - What's the point? Okay, so we learn that people are neural enchanted, and they're, I don't know DNA enchanted, what's the word for that, our faith and genetic research? - We think they're really big ethical implications, particularly when we start thinking about potential, nocebo effects and culturally widespread nocebo effects. So, genetic testing also generates a lot of anxiety. A lot of the times it's not done under proper clinical settings and clinical guidance, and people start worrying immensely, because they have a particular gene that is thought to correlate with a particular condition like say, Alzheimer's, for example. And that can bring about all kinds of negative experiences, including sometimes perhaps precipitating early onset of diseases that may not otherwise have been triggered. So we think there's lots of important implications, particularly in terms of, debunking, dangerous pseudo medical and pseudo scientific idea. So if we're able to demonstrate that there's a lot of authority, a lot of placebo nocebo effects associated with, say, genetic testing, then we're better able to inform clinical practice, for example, or policy-- - And the public cannot be quite so enchanted by it or perhaps misled, needlessly panicked. Wow, it's important stuff. - And so to answer your questions, yes, we're still working with tulpamancers. As you recall, I did a cyber ethnography years ago, with just delivered a psychological testing on these really cool, weird young people who conjure imaginary friends that they come to experience as basically as auditory visual hallucinations, except they're not crazy. And they report an increase in well being in their life, even in social adjustment as a result of having picked up the practice. So people wanna say, well, they're crazy, they're hearing voices, and we think we're able to show that No, in fact, there's lots of context in which you can hear voices and be a very healthy person. So now, under the leadership of Dr. Mike Lifshitz, and Dr. Tanya Lerman at Stanford University, we're in the process of doing neuro imaging of tulpamancers and comparing them also to evangelical Christians who speak in tongues. And so we're interested in seeing what happens in the brain when either spirit or tulpa sort of takes over and starts talking. And we're interested in the motor areas of the brain as well. And we wanna see if something different is going on. When say, an agency other than itself a tulpa or a spirit is sort of in control. - Yeah, what does it look like in the brain when you aren't in control of your thoughts and behavior? If we can tease out the difference, then are we literally finding like that is your agency that is your consciousness, your will? And if it's gone, then you feel like you're possessed. Which, by the way, brings us to our reverse exorcism episode, which you guys should all check out. Keep me up to date on what you're doing, because I really wanna help in any way that I can. And, communicate all the cool work that you're doing. So Dr. Veissière thanks. - It's always a pleasure, - Always a pleasure. - Thanks for having me. - Now, we're gonna turn to a darker topic. My own death. Should I die? Let's find out. (eerie music) Someday, I will die. But should I? If I was offered a longer life, I would take that in a second. But how long is too long? Is death something I should deny forever? Or is death and the role it plays in the universe, something I am better off accepting? (upbeat music) I wanna start by looking at a particular way death affects how we live and treat one another. Terror Management Theory proposes that people like you and me manage the terror of death's inevitability by embracing cultural values. That the more aware a person is of their own mortality, the more vehemently they will enforce their particular views of the world on to others. Created by social psychologists Sheldon Solomon, Jeff Greenberg, and Tom Pyszczynski Terror Management Theory, or TMT suggests that often we are afraid of change, because we're afraid of death. Each one of us has a worldview, a set of beliefs, customs and norms we identify with that can live on after our business physical bodies die. TMT suggests that rises in nationalism and prejudice are correlated with rises in the salience of mortality, but is how present the inevitability of death is in people's minds. This role that death plays fascinates me and two have TMT originators Jeff and Sheldon have agreed to work with me on a pilot study of Terror Management Theory and real life reminders of death. (soft music) What's your hypothesis today? Well, I think we're gonna hope for the participants who are reminded of their mortality to be more punitive, and their assessments. - Let's see what happens. - Good morning. - [Michael] For our study, we created a fake Research Center staffed by actors and invited participants to be a part of what they were told was a focus group about the criminal justice system. During the actual study, each group will hear a list of several different crimes that have been committed, and will then be asked to propose a punishment for each offender with a severity level ranging from one to seven, with one being the most lenient, and seven being the most severe. The control group will simply enter the survey room and be asked to answer the questions. The experimental group, however, will first be exposed to reminders of their own mortality with strategically placed posters in the lobby. Also, the questionnaires they fill out will include questions about their own death. Decades of TMT research have shown that when presented with violations of common worldviews, those who are more aware of their own deaths will recommend bigger punishments for the crimes presented. But will our real life reminders of death, not just the survey questions usually used make a difference? Well, first, let's look at the control participants. - Thank you so much for being here. Now, I cannot emphasize this enough, there are no right or wrong answers. This is just about your gut level reactions. All right, let's begin. After raising millions of dollars in grant money to fund education for needy children, a fundraising manager unhappy with this life fled with all the money and was arrested months later in Tasmania where he was living under a different name. So one, his punishment three months in prison, seven is most severe, 10 years in prison. Please answer now. (upbeat music) - This is one that I think does has views on both sides. - Yeah. (bell ringing) - [Michael] That is a lot of sevens. If our control group is already maxing out like that, well then our scale has no room in that direction to show any effective mortality salience. Discovering issues like this, learning how to better isolate mortality salient's effect is exactly what a pilot test is for. Hey! - Hey. - Personal differences, huh? - Yeah. - An imposter with no medical training posed as a surgeon and bungled a minor operation to remove a child's tonsils. The patient recovered fully after additional treatment. One is six months on probation, seven is 10 years in prison. (upbeat music) - Okay, if you are taking on the persona of a doctor, we expect good behavior. (bell ringing) - The surgeon botched the operation and was found to be under the influence of narcotics, causing her to have permanent hoarseness and ruining her career. (bell ringing) (upbeat music) A 16 year old girl who had just received her license drove through a red light hitting another car that was being driven by a talented pianist. (bell ringing) (upbeat music) A couple was taking their two children to the playground when they saw a woman sunbathing nude. - Look at that there could be a gender gap. We're also learning a lot about the world views people have. - [Jeff] Yeah, absolutely. (bell ringing) (upbeat music) - An anti government protester was arrested for spring painting profanities at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, DC. One, 40 hours. - Wow, she went one right away. - Five years in prison. - She's not a fan of authority and rules. - Yeah. (bell ringing) (upbeat music) - Okay, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. - All right, so here's the results and the mathematical analysis. These are averages per question. These are the averages and medians per participant. - The fours are great, the three is great. - But this is grounds for optimism, at least. - Seven was the max sentencing value and our control group gave an average of 4.5. I'm really happy with that as a control group. - Absolutely. - [Michael] Now, our experimental groups. Remember, they will be seeing posters that remind them of their own mortality and will be asked different questions in their questionnaire for example, please describe the emotions that the thought of your own death arouses in you. And write down as specifically as you can, what you think will happen to you physically as you die. The point is to prime their mortality salience. Let's see if this group is more punitive towards worldview violations. - After raising millions of dollars to fund education for needy children, a fundraising manager fled with all the money and was arrested months later in Tasmania. One, three months in prison, seven, 10 years in prison, please answer now. (upbeat music) - He's thinking about it. - Please hold up your answers. All right, thank you so much. - Ah, okay. (bell ringing) (upbeat music) - An imposter with no medical training posed as a surgeon and bungled a minor operation to remove a child's tonsils. One, six months on probation, seven, 10 years in prison. (upbeat music) - They are thinking a lot more. - Yeah. (upbeat music) (laughing) - A 10, I'm pretty sure she knows that seven is the highest. - We'll call it a seven yeah. - It's funny to see when people feel bold enough, even though I'm like breaking the bounds and the rules of the task. (bell ringing) (upbeat music) - An anti government protester was arrested for painting profanities at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington DC. (upbeat music) - I really do appreciate the way they clearly seem to be taking a bit more time to deliberate. - Yeah. (upbeat music) (bell ringing) (upbeat music) - Okay, they can put the papers down and tell them that we will be in shortly. - Okay, thank you so much. We finished with this part of the study. So if you don't mind just hanging out for a moment. And our researchers will be in here in a moment to ask you a couple questions. - Let's find out if the reminders of mortality, we showed our experimental group were salient enough. - Let me ask you about one thing, out in the waiting room, did you all notice the posters at all? - [All] Yes. - Okay. - I was surprised as soon as they walked in the door, and I saw the gravestones. - Yeah, that's right. - I wondered what did I get into? - So we are looking into something that's called Terror Management Theory. And it's the idea that your own awareness of your mortality can affect the behaviors that you exhibit, that we all manage the terror that we feel knowing that we are mortal, by behaving in certain ways, especially in ways that reinforce our own worldviews because we can kind of live on through the societies and cultures and identities that we have today. - Did any of you feel like you were still thinking a little bit about death when you were came in here? - I was definitely going after people who transgressed against my worldview to use your terms. Yes, I noticed that. Yes, I was definitely doing that. - So this was incredibly helpful. Thank you very much for your participation. It looks like our experimental stimuli were successful. They were salient, but they didn't cause the participants to think they were related to the study. - The control participants averaged about 4.5. The experimental participants were close to 4.7. So there's a slight tendency for the experimental people to be leaning in the direction that we predicted. But we're talking about relatively inconsequential differences. - That's right. It just makes me hungry to run more people. And with the number that we had, That's statistically insignificant. Do you think that we did see any effects of mortality salience today? - I feel like the mortality salient groups tended to take a little longer before responding - Yeah me, too. - And they seem more thoughtful they really put more effort into trying to do the right thing. - The difference was dramatic enough that we picked up on it. - Absolutely. - [Michael] Although our stimuli might need to go through a couple more passes and some more vetting, we did find an interesting difference in the time it took for our groups to respond. Our control group took an average of four minutes and 46 seconds to decide on their punishments. But our experimental group took an average of seven minutes, 18 seconds. - In a sense that really is the prediction, the right thing by their own worldview. But by the same token, when we think about death, we wanna do what's right. And if we're acting like jurors, we wanna make the right decisions. - As we very much learned today, the goal isn't to prove one thing one way or the other. It's just to reduce uncertainty. In the most careful way possible. - Absolutely. To know a little bit more today than we did yesterday. - Whoa, okay, we have a lot to talk about. And luckily, I've got just the person here with me to talk about all of this with Judy Ho a clinical neuropsychologist, tenured professor at Pepperdine, you run your own practice, you work with ethics a lot. What is your actual position? - So I'm the chair of the institutional review board at Pepperdine University, which is how we first started working together because you were doing the trolley experiment. And that was an interesting thing to talk about. - Yes, if you have seen the trolley problem episode of Mind Field you have seen Judy there helping us with the ethics of can we make people think they've committed murder? Is that okay? Maybe it's not okay for the university to do, but can a TV show do it? Bottom line is we learned a lot. And so, Judy, I wanted you here today to