The Terror of Believing in Christ | John Rich

I actually wrote down what you said, and I wondered if you let me quote you for a minute. Oh, can I quote you in our—in your—it's your interview. Can I quote you? Okay, hey man, go right ahead. Go ahead, I appreciate that.

All right, this is—this is Dr. Jordan Peterson here. A quote from him: "What you have in the figure of Christ is the actual person who actually lived, plus a myth. And in some sense, Christ is the union of those two things. The problem is that I probably believe that, but I'm amazed at my own belief, and I don't understand it because I've seen that sometimes the objective world and the narrative world touch. That's Union, synchronicity. And I've seen that many times in my own life. And so, in some sense, I believe it's undeniable. You know, we have a narrative sense of the world; for me, that's been the world of morality. That's the world that tells us how to act. It's real. We treat it like it's real. It's not the objective world, but sometimes the narrative and the objective world touch, and the ultimate example of that, in principle, is supposed to be Christ. And that seems to me oddly plausible, but I still don't know what to make of it, partly because it's too terrifying of a reality to fully believe. I don't know what would even happen to you if you fully believed it."

Yeah, yeah. So what struck me about that when I heard you say that was the terrified part, because to me, I would think it'd be the greatest thing in the world. If Jesus is who the Bible says he is, if that is true, then you should go running straight to him because he controls heaven and hell, he created the universe. He's the Alpha, the Omega. He is the way, the truth, and the life; he's every answer you ever wanted to have, every answer to every question. He is the ultimate. He loves you more than anybody will ever love you. He created you; you—you are his creation. The last thing he wants to see happen to you is for you to go and follow the other way and wind up in eternity separated from him.

So, I—I had—I know it's your interview, but I wanted to ask you what terrifies you about the notion that Jesus might be who the Bible actually says he is.

Well, it's been—as you pointed out—a number of years since I said those things, and I know more and understand more than I did when I said those words. Um, I've reconceptualized my perspective, I suppose, or deepened it partly as a consequence of writing these new books, because I have three books finished and one of them is coming out soon. They're all analysis of the biblical narratives. This is something we can talk about in relationship to what happened to you after you decided to leave the confines of the safe confines, let's say, of the music industry.

See, I started to understand, in the story of Abraham, for example, God comes to Abraham as the voice of Adventure, right? Because Abraham is an old man by the time God shows up, and he's living in comfort. And he has everything you might need if all you wanted to be is a satiated infant. And God is really what calls Abraham out into the world, and he has the whole catastrophic adventure of his life, right? He encounters famine, totalitarianism, and war, and malevolence, and the destruction of cities, and the necessity to offer up even his own son. I mean, Abraham's life is quite the spectacular catastrophe, and that—what would you say the religious injunction—the deepest religious injunction—is to have exactly that catastrophe of adventure, and there's no real limit to that. And that's part of what's terrifying.

You know, you—you said if the terror wasn't there, that Holy Terror in a sense, you wouldn't have had any compunctions about giving up your contractual relationships and the financial stability and the fame that that offered, right? You already had that. There's a—there's a terror in letting that go, let's say, and only doing what—what would you say? What you're commanded to do or what you're invited to do by the Spirit of the truth. But the payoff is an adventure that so disproportionately greater than whatever you would have gained by staying with your—what would you say? Your hedonistic comfort that they're not even in the same universe, and that is—it's the kind of Terror.

So, you know, when God casts Adam and Eve out of the garden or when they separate themselves from God, God puts a sword to bar the way back to the Eternal garden. And the sword is on fire, and it turns every which way. And what that means is that it's a sword that cuts and burns away everything that isn't worthy of being in the kingdom of heaven, and everything that's not worthy is a lot. And there's a terror—there's a terror in being subjected to that, even though it's a necessary subjugation—it's the most necessary of subjugations.

And so, so what's the bigger gamble, though? I mean, what's the bigger terror? Is the bigger Terror—that is the question—that in this very temporary body that we sit in, this very short span of time we have to live in it, that we don't—that he's going to take over and he's going to burn and cut and move things off of us? And by the way, for everything he burns and cuts off, he adds back, by the way. Okay? That he adds things on where he cut things off—oh, more—much more, multiples of it. Is it a bigger Terror to undergo that process or to roll all the way through your life, and the second your heart stops, and your eyes open up, you're standing in front of him, and you knew the truth and you rejected the truth? And now what? Now he says, "Depart from me, depart from me. I never knew you." And then it's Eternal Terror—then it's Eternal Terror forever and ever, and there's no coming back. You don't get a second chance at that—that's the ultimate Terror.

So I would—I would ask you one more question. If—if—you use the word 'if' here for you—if Jesus is truly who the Bible says he is, he is the Creator, he is the one who exists and creates existence, which is how he's defined. He is the Alpha and the Omega; he holds the keys to life and death, to heaven and hell. If he is that person, would you ever turn your life over to him? If you truly believed he was, would you turn your life over to him?

Well, if you truly believe that, turning your life over to him under those conditions would be exactly the same as believing it. Belief isn't, as you already pointed out, belief isn't a set of statements about what you believe to be true—it's a way of living.

Well, but I'm already outlined what that way of living is.

Well, but I'm asking you, as just as—one of the most, I would say, one of the smartest guys in the world, one of the most intellectual people alive today. It's why people watch you, someone like yourself. If you—if you became absolutely convinced, yes, that's real.

Wow, it is terrifying. It is terri—but you said if you told him, "I am turning my life over to you. Do what you will with me." And you really did that. If—you were—if—you were willing to do that.

Um, I already did that.

What a situation, long time ago.

You did?

I did that a long time ago.

Yeah, so, so how is it that?

How is it that—I know the truth sets you free.

Yeah, I understand.

So, so, so in your life—in your life, it's not the doctor calling the shots?

Not when I'm oriented properly.

What orients you?

Holy Terror.

Look, I'm trying to say the things that I believe serve the truth, like, and I have reason for that, like because I know the—I know what the alternative is. If the alternative is bleak, like bleaker than you can imagine. And so step carefully—that's my presumption—and hope and pray that you're careful enough to walk the straight narrow path.

But it's impossible. You can't do that.

I can't do it.

You can't do it?

Oh, I understand. I understand what you mean.

I don't take any issue with what you've said.

Yeah, no, I don't—I don't think you do, and I'm not trying to have an issue, I'm just—

No, I—I’ve studied what you've been saying, and I know you look at the Bible, it seems at least very metaphorically and very intellectual. You look at it in those kinds of terms, and at the end of the day, it's—it's not a metaphor, and it's not intellectualism. Like, when—when you die and you see him, what's he going to say to you? What are you going to say to him? I mean, that's the ultimate question that everybody watching this interview is going to have to deal with—everybody.

It says every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Every knee—including John Rich and Jordan Peterson and the Devil himself and everybody else—every knee is going to have to bow. And so whether you believe that or not doesn't change the fact that that is what is going to happen.

And I—I happen to believe, because it says in the scripture that the Lord reveals himself to every man. Every man knows it. He says, "I stand at the door and knock, and if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I'll come in with him. I'll sit down with him. I'll dine with him. I'll have dinner with him and he with me." And so you hear him knocking on that door, and you walk up, you open it, and you let him in.

That is what that means—you have invited him into your house. Let's call your body; this is my house. I invite him in. He sits down; he becomes—he's living in my house now. That's what that means. It also says, he won't knock forever. He will not knock forever. If you—if you reject—you said you experienced that—you experienced that when you felt abandoned.

Yep, yep.

Uh, he won't knock forever. At some point, if you reject him long enough, it says he'll just turn you over to your desires and go, "Well, we gave it a good shot—move on." And brother, you don't want to get to that point.

So anybody watching this, if you feel him—you feel him knocking at the door—open the door.