Going Undercover to Save Manta Rays | Podcast | Overheard at National Geographic

Is a woman in her early 20s, and she is very far from home. Don't ask where. I'm gonna try to say this without saying, like, country names, because I feel like that could expose me to danger. We can tell you it's early 2018, and she's in a major city in East Asia. You can hear the sounds of the city all around you. There's traffic. There's, you know, the hustle and bustle of a big booming industrial city. More specifically, she's with the filmmaker in a seafood market inside a shopping mall. People around her are laughing and talking. There was just a ton of different kinds of stores with everything from shark fin to ivory to manta rays to pangolin scales. Like, literally every imaginable kind of wildlife. But Malik is not there to shop. She's there to investigate seafood smuggling.

She talks with the seafood trader, a young woman there with her child. Then Maleka happens to turn around. She notices two people in police uniforms with walkie-talkies. They're watching her. I'd seen them a couple of times that day. But that's when I realized that we were being watched. Maleka and the filmmaker immediately start pretending to be tourists, being like, "Hey, let's take a selfie together! Let's, like, you know, just huddle together and take pictures!" And, "Can I also buy this beautiful shawl that you have on your storefront?"

Right, so we have to really, really make that shift super fast.

"Wait, so who could they have been? Like, who were you afraid these uniformed people were?"

"They were from the government. That's the uniform."

"Why would a government not want you to be doing that? You are, you know, shining a light on something that shouldn't be done, and that can often be embarrassing for a government. That can often be, um, something that they want to keep kind of under the rug. So that's what exposes you to danger. I mean, more than the traders or the small guys. Very often, we're scared of the bigger guys, the kingpins and the people who, you know, liaise with the kingpins, the people in positions of power.

Um, and in that moment, you know, maybe it could have been just someone keeping an eye out on us because we were tourists in a part of the world that isn't that touristy, but it felt like more than that. This moment still sends shivers down my spine."

"I'm gonna wait for that guy to pass. Maybe it's the seafood traders. They're out there. They can hear me trying to ruin the interview."

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"I'm Alana Strauss, and this is Overheard, a show where we eavesdrop on the wild conversations we have here at Nat Geo and follow them to the edges of our big, weird, beautiful world. This week, we follow National Geographic Explorer Malaika Vas as she goes undercover to investigate the manta ray black market. To do that, she dons a fake identity and books flights to faraway lands to find out who is selling these endangered animals and why. More after the break."

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"When I called up Malaika, it was the middle of the night on her end. I could hear crickets chirping in the background. So let me just tell you what I'm saying first, and I can go back to the beginning. Okay, so to understand how Maleka ended up on this investigation, you have to know something about her. She loves the ocean. Like, I grew up in India on the coast, and she's been diving in the ocean since she was 12 years old.

She was fascinated by all the weird and beautiful life in the deep, and there was one animal she loved in particular: manta rays. The first time she saw a manta ray, she was swimming in the Maldives. I looked down at this beautiful, like, black shadow coming out of nowhere, just right above a coral reef. And this animal was interactive. Like, it was curious about me. I just kind of was frozen for some reason because I wasn't expecting this massive, giant cloud in the ocean to come swimming up to me. But it just came up to me, and it kind of swirled all around, and it was poetic. I mean, this sounds so cheesy, but it was a kind of like a poetic moment, and ever since then, I've been obsessed with these animals.

When Malek got older, she became a wildlife filmmaker. So she was fascinated by a lot of different animals, but she always felt like there was something special about manta rays. They are such incredible beings. They are creative and curious, and they'll come up to you, and they're just, you know, really playful as well, and I fell so deeply in love with them. I mean, if I ever got a tattoo, I think it'd probably have a manta ray on it."

Malaika had dived with manta rays in Australia and the Maldives, and she'd always thought of them as foreign animals. Then, one day, she's on this filming assignment in eastern India for a film about big cats, and she hears a farmer in town talking about flat pancake fish.

"I was like, what's a flat pancake fish?" And he's like, "You know, there are these massive animals that are really flat, and they're being traded, and you have to come see this."

Malika wonders if these pancake fish are really manta rays, so she goes to the local seafood market to find out. "So it was really loud. There were, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people there just, like, jostling around, walking through the market. It was also very smelly. I mean, my clothes smelled of dead fish for days after, despite washing them multiple times. You just cannot wash that smell off you."

She walks past fishermen selling their catches. You had tuna, you had crabs, prawns, all of that. "I think I probably saw more dead animals, more exotic marine life there than I ever have in the ocean. I mean, I've never seen a bull shark, but I saw five that day."

Then, she finds them—25 dead manta rays lying on the floor. "Sick in the bit of my stomach, to be honest. That's what I felt like. I was just shocked at the number of manta rays, the number of manta rays and mobula rays I was just lying there. It's a sobering sight when you see so many animals that you love just lying dead, lifeless, and gone. It felt like a waste of life. It felt like it just shouldn't have been like that."

Okay, so the weird thing is, people in India don't generally eat manta rays. Plus, all manta ray species are threatened, according to the International Union for the Conservation of Nature. In 2020, the giant manta ray became the first manta ray species to be classified as endangered.

Sightings of that species in Asia have dropped by 95 percent. Trade of manta rays is strictly regulated under an international treaty, and permits are only issued if authorities determine a shipment won't be detrimental to the species. And if a shipment doesn't qualify, it's common for wildlife traders to bribe government officials to obtain falsified permits, or they might resort to smuggling them out of the country.

So who's buying these manta rays and why? The local fishermen don't seem to know. "Does he have any idea where these gill plates are headed?"

Malaika decides she has to figure out what's happening to these manta rays. She teams up with Nityasude, another filmmaker, and she reaches out to every biologist in the area she knows. "And I said, if you find out anything about the trade in these animals, give me a call."

Two months later, she gets a call back from a conservation group called the Save Our Seas Foundation that said, "You know, we have manta rays at the northeastern border of India." And this was shocking because these are animals that are found down south, right? They're found on the coast. "They're in some little village in the middle of nowhere far from the ocean." That means Maleka's suspicion is correct.

These aren't fishermen selling to locals. Manta rays are being transported across the country for trade. But why would they end up in some tiny town? So she and Nitya book flights to a town in Manipur, a region in India on the militarized border next to Myanmar. This is a place where you see armed forces personnel pretty much everywhere. She goes to talk to some of the soldiers.

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They tell her that a trader named Alex recently tried to get over 650 pounds of fish across the border into Myanmar, and they were like, "That doesn't seem right. Why would someone be transporting so much fish?"

The soldiers reached out to the forest department to find out what these animals were, and by pure coincidence, one forest service worker had happened to see a documentary about ocean wildlife, and he recognized the animals. They were manta rays, which are illegal to transport under international law, according to the Sites Treaty. So the army confiscated the manta rays.

The soldiers show Malaika a storehouse filled with dead manta rays. "So, so, so many animals, and it was shocking. Suddenly finding manta rays in this random town makes a lot of sense. This is a really remote part of the world, and there's a good chance people out here wouldn't recognize manta rays. When a dead manta ray is brought into a bag, it looks like a piece of dried fish. You can't tell it apart from a wild animal."

It was pure chance that a forest service worker had happened to watch the right documentary. Had he not, the traders might have gotten away with it. And the border location makes sense too. This is a place with a lot of conflict. There's been a lot of insurgency in the last few decades in this part of the world.

Funding is required to carry out insurgent activity. You do need funding if you are, you know, buying ammunition if you're buying guns. So maybe insurgents needed the manta rays to fund their activities.

But who are they selling to? Malaika realizes there's someone in town who would know. "And I said, can I meet with the trader?" And they were like, "Of course not! You're a woman! How can we allow you to meet with the trader? How could we put you in such a dangerous situation?"

And it was this weird form of chivalry that I just did not appreciate. Maleka keeps pushing for information about the trader. "I'm like, okay, thank you for that advice. Do you happen to have this number? I just wanted to know." And they're like, "We don't! Thank you so much for coming and taking pictures of the contraband, but you're done now."

So she thanks them, says goodbye, and then I ask the office guy—like, the guy who was just doing some paperwork there—I said, "Can you give me the number?" And he did.

Then she goes to the local police station and meets up with a policeman. "And I give him this number and tell him this is someone I want to meet. Could you please help me out?" So we both call up Alex, the trader, and Alex picks up the phone, and he just wasn't expecting this. "Because he just wasn't."

"So, and he's like, the police is calling you here right now." Alex comes to the station. "I basically say to Alex, can I speak to your trader in Myanmar?" And he said, "Yeah, you can."

The Myanmar trader doesn't speak English, so Malika, Alex, and the Myanmar trader all just jump on the phone together, Alex translating.

"Man [Applause], over to you."

"Yeah, hello, because we're trying to understand more about the fishes that are found in India and where they go and stuff. So I would love to hear, do you know anything about that?"

"I don't know."

So I asked the trader in Myanmar, why did you have to have such a massive consignment of, you know, manta rays sent from India to Myanmar? What's the market? Why? Like, what are people doing with this stuff? And he was like, "It's for luxury hotels. It's not going anywhere."

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He says that people at the hotels are eating manta ray meat. Malaika finds this suspicious. She's been researching the manta ray trade, and she hasn't found anything about some big appetite for manta ray in Myanmar. She suspects Myanmar is a stop along the way, and the rays are really going somewhere else.

When I say, "Is it not going across the border from Myanmar?" I do not believe that Myanmar is the final destination. He was like, "I can promise you it is."

After the meeting, she calls up a bunch of hotels in Myanmar and finds none that served manta ray. "He couldn't obviously admit that it was going to a bigger market, because that probably would mean that he is doing something more illegal than it seems. I mean, taking a bit of wildlife to a local hotel seems more innocuous than being part of a large global criminal syndicate."

Malika's hit a dead end, and she realizes that she's not getting anywhere as herself. If she wants to talk to traders and get a real answer, she'll have to pretend to be someone else. She has to go undercover as a seafood trader.

More after the break.

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Okay, so if Malaika is gonna pass as a seafood trader, she really has to understand the trade. You had to, like, have all this background knowledge about being, like, a manta ray trader. How did you acquire all this knowledge? Like, were you looking at note cards on the plane? Or what? How did you do this?

"Well, so to be a seafood trader, you have to spend time with a seafood trader, right? So she meets up with a bunch of seafood traders in India and asks them just tons of questions about marine wildlife and how much different animals cost. And you don't just have to know about rays and sharks; you need to understand every other animal, right? Like, the smaller species. If you don't, they're gonna know that you're not a real trader."

She takes her research seriously. She has to. "If you mess up, someone could get hurt, so I really, really had to do my research. And at the end of that research process, I felt like a seafood trader, to be honest. Finally, she's ready, and she knows exactly where to enact her newfound identity.

Malika's been doing her research, and she has a good idea who has a big demand for manta rays. People in China. They use manta rays as medicine. So, are there manta rays coming from India, and how big of a trade is this really? There's only one way to find out."

Malaika books a flight to China.

"The minute I landed in Hong Kong, I was a seafood trader! So, you know, I had a business visa. I was dressed like a seafood trader. I had cameras embedded in these glasses that I was wearing."

"Oh, okay. So you've gone full-on just, like, spy mode here!"

"I don't know if I'd use the word 'spy,' but yeah, you've got, like, hidden camera, and you've got a fake identity! Like, you've got fake business cards!"

"Yeah, yeah, completely different business cards, a different name. Different, you know, I don't wear glasses in real life. So it was just, it was kind of like being in a movie. It was very strange."

She and Nitya start walking through the seafood markets. "In every store we saw, you know, bags and bags of manta rays that was just kept in the storefront, like, right there for anyone to buy."

She asks a few customers what the manta rays are for. "People were like, um, it's really good for your skin, and I could see people with obvious skin afflictions, with, you know, skin diseases that were probably caused by that, um, still saying that this was great for your skin."

So it's kind of interesting how the mind works, right? You want to believe what you want to believe.

"And then she starts talking to the traders."

[Applause]

"Okay, so for the gill plates, how do the Indian people bring it here? Do they like, you buy it from a wholesaler?"

She notices this particularly big store full of seafood. "I really just wanted to understand what the numbers were, how much monetary contraband could I find in the city. So she goes inside and talks to the trader."

"So I decided to be completely wild. Okay, like, really, really wild. So I said, I'm a trader, and I want to take a lot of mandatory contraband back home, and I'm looking for large, high-quality produce. Can you get me 500 kilograms tomorrow morning? And I will arrange for my guys to come pick it up and send it across in cargo."

"500 kilograms is over a thousand pounds. That's a ridiculously large amount! Malaika knows he won't really have that much, but maybe she can learn something about the scale of this industry from his reaction."

And the trader looked at me, and he asked me a bit about my work, and I was able to, you know, keep up the story. And he was like, "Let me just check." He ducks in back and makes a couple calls in a language Malaika doesn't understand.

Then he comes back out and he says to me, "500 kilos? If you needed a thousand, we have that too!"

"500 kilos was a wild guess! I just was really pushing it! I probably thought that he'd say, like, 'No, I have 50.' But this guy came back to me and said he had a thousand kilograms. That's hundreds and hundreds of wild animals."

It's probably like a local species, like a local population.

By talking to people in Hong Kong and Guangzhou, Malaika learns that manta rays are indeed being trafficked from India and around the world. "And the way the business works is that once an animal becomes endangered, that's when it's sexy. You know, once an animal is at the brink of extinction, that's when it's more expensive. You know, extinction is becoming pricey. Extinction is becoming very, very exotic in these markets because the more rare an animal is, the higher the price is."

Manta ray prices vary. A single manta ray's gill plates can go for anywhere from forty to five hundred dollars.

"So here's where it gets interesting. Malika has encountered some research that suggests that manta rays aren't really part of traditional Chinese medicine. Instead, traders make up the idea that manta rays are medicinal, and people buy into it. She wants to investigate this theory, so she meets up with a traditional medicine doctor in China."

"And the question that I asked him was, you know, everyone's saying that this is part of a long heritage of consuming wildlife, but can you tell me specifically, do you see manta rays in your book?"

He has this traditional medicine book with him, with thousands of recipes. I was like, "Can you, like, flip through this book and show me where it says manta rays and where it says sharks?"

And he did. He looked through the book and he was like, "Actually, it doesn't."

Malika thinks she knows why manta rays aren't in his book. This is a business that's been fabricated. This is a demand that's been created by traders. It's a business-driven trade.

"And that's when it really hit me that even though we often say traditional medicine, when it comes to the wildlife trade, very often it's not. It's actually just sold as traditional medicine."

So she's seen the pipeline from oceans in India to Myanmar to China, but something's still bothering her. She's been investigating this trade, but she still hasn't met the people who are really behind it. Alex and the trader in Myanmar were important traders, but they weren't, they weren't the head. They weren't the people who were running the show.

There's something she still doesn't understand. What goes on in the mind of a wildlife trader? In the mind of someone who is running this big syndicate. And then she realizes she's had this clue all along.

When she went to the Myanmar border to look into the smuggled manta rays, she stopped by the customs office, and they'd given her an invoice. It was the invoice that a seafood trading kingpin in India was sending to the trader in Myanmar.

Malika still has that invoice, and it's got a phone number on it—the number of the kingpin himself. So I called up this number and I said that I'm a seafood trader and I'd like to meet with you because I want to discuss business opportunities that we could potentially work on, and maybe we could collaborate.

The trader agrees to meet with her, so she flies to a city on the south coast of India. Her driver drops her off in front of this abandoned looking three-story building in the middle of nowhere.

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The first two stories were just empty, and you could smell fish—like, you could smell the fact that there was wildlife in there—and then on the third story, there was just an office and, like, lots of dried fish kept outside.

Malaika walks into the office with Nitya while the driver waits near the door. There are a bunch of men sitting at a table. One in particular catches her eye—a guy in his 50s. This is the guy she's been looking for, the kingpin himself.

He had this really bass voice—like, really, really strong low voice—and he spoke really, really quietly, and he kind of commanded this aura of respect all around him. So it was just like him in the center and, like, six men sitting all around him.

The minute I walked in, I was scared because this, this he was a smart guy. "So you're in the seafood business, right?"

"We are based out of Goa, India."

"Yes, yes, yes."

"Sit down across from him."

"Nitya has a pen recorder in his shirt, so we, uh, we've been looking at Andhra place recently. So in Andhra finish, we've been doing different kinds of trading with fish—more with the manga regular plates, um, the shark fin, but now interested in buying more of the gill plates because there's a huge market for it."

I asked him, "I'm a trader too. Would you recommend getting into this industry? Because, you know, I've been trading other species so far, but I've been seriously considering manta rays as a new business opportunity."

And when I said that, he was like, "Yeah, they're a great business opportunity because you can make so much money off of them and these animals are not going to go extinct. We've been trading them for years now, and nothing's happened. We keep trading them, and they're just, they're in the oceans every time we need them."

That's when Malika finally understands what's going on in the minds of these kingpins. It's something she already knew but hadn't quite faced. For these traders, it doesn't matter if this animal is on the brink of extinction, as long as this animal is in a position where they can catch them in, like, you know, 20s every day or, like, 50s every day and thousands every year. That's enough.

They keep talking, and Malika starts to feel like something's wrong. "He could tell that I was younger. He could tell that I didn't really know what I was talking about."

She realizes that the kingpin is doubting her trader act. "Actually, going undercover in your own country is so much harder than going undercover in another country."

"In a foreign land, that's because when you're in a foreign country, a lot's lost in communication. You don't speak the same language. People don't know what people in your country are like. But in your country, in my country, if you say you're a seafood trader, a seafood trader looks like an older man, typically."

"You know, it looks like someone who's probably in his mid-50s, you know, probably wearing a suit. And in a place outside of your country, you can kind of run with it and, you know, get away with it. But here, he could see through me."

And the kingpin starts asking her tougher questions. "What's the name of your company? Where exactly is it located? You know, show me your website."

And we had some things as a cover, but we didn't have everything, and he was definitely getting through to us, and he was seeing through our cover. "We work in the same company. It's called Madame Rosa Distillery."

"Okay, so that's when I said, you know, hey, I kind of have to head out, and I said thank you so much for your advice and being a seafood trader. And I kind of, you know, started to leave."

Just as Malaika and Nitya are leaving, the kingpin calls out to Malaika's driver. "He was like, hey, can I just have a word with you? And I just want to talk to you about, you know, stuff."

That's when Malaika knows she's in trouble. Her driver knows she's not really a seafood trader, and the kingpin might know that too. "He could ask me tough questions, and I could probably wiggle my way out of that, but when my driver was confronted with something like that, he probably might have let slip and he might have, you know, told him the truth."

And I immediately had to come up with, like, a way to get out of this. Malika frantically texts the coworker in another city. She tells them to call her to give her an excuse to leave. "I was like, can you just call me and say you need to meet me right now, and that, you know, you got into an accident?"

The kingpin and the driver start talking in Tamil, a language Malaika doesn't understand. Malaika waits for the call, hoping the driver doesn't give anything away. Then her phone rings.

"So my teammate called me, and I was like, hi, uh, what's up? And, you know, oh gosh, that's terrible! Can I, I'm gonna be there in, like, the next 20 minutes? Can you send me the address on Google Maps?"

So all three of us, including my driver, rushed out of there, and we got into our car and just went.

"What would have happened? Like, what were you afraid of happening?"

"These traders make a lot of money from the traded manta rays and other marine products. So if you are someone who could hurt that income, if you were someone who could hamper the amount of revenue coming into their bank accounts every month, they could, you know, stuff could go wrong, and I don't know what that is. I don't know how that could play out."

Malaika, Nitya, and their driver get away safely. The driver had been stalling; he didn't give away critical information. That meeting really hammered something home. The manta ray trade isn't really about the fishermen.

So often, we blame the fishermen, the people who are at the grassroots level, the people who were actively going out and killing these animals, but very often, these people are just trying to put three meals on their tables. They're trying to feed their families, but with the bigger criminal syndicates, they're raking in the money.

Malaika realized that this trade was more global than she'd assumed. "When you're filming in a wildlife market in Guangzhou one month and then back home in your country, seeing these animals at a landing site, and then you're filming with them underwater in an ocean in the Maldives, and then you see them in, you know, another part of the world, I think that global experience of tracking that different parts of the trade really helped me see that this is a global problem."

"It might have origins in one part of the world, but if we are to tackle it, we have to get different governments on board. We have to get diverse stakeholders on board. Because that's the thing with wildlife trafficking—you need to have different people coming on board to intercept it at different stages of the pipeline."

It's a pipeline that doesn't just apply to manta rays. Or, and in Asia, elephants, for instance, are taken from the wild and tortured for years just so humans can ride them.

"If you're someone who's ever ridden an elephant—I mean, not just an elephant, but if you've petted a tiger or gotten super close with a monkey, that could be dangerous in the wild. These animals have gotten to this point because of human interference. They've got to this point where they're cuddly and cute and, like, Instagrammable because of the human hand, which is destructive."

I guess what I'm wondering now is, like, I've seen elephants, like, as a kid, right? Like, I've seen them at circuses. I think I've ridden elephants before, like, when I was really young. I think, I think, yeah, I did. It's, like, really vague because I was very young, but I'm pretty sure I have. Is that what happened to them?

"Yeah, almost every elephant that you see in captivity has either been taken from the wild or it's been bred in captivity. And these elephants have been trained to not hurt human beings, and that process is gory."

"Ugh! I feel really bad now!"

"Like, no, no, no! The point is that you shouldn't feel bad! You shouldn't! I mean, we've all made mistakes! But if you can just go out and tell one more person about it. If you can educate someone who might be in the position where they might want to ride an elephant in the future or, you know, get close to a tiger or have, like, an iguana on their shoulder for an Instagram picture, if you can educate that person and stop that from happening, then you've done your bit."

Spreading awareness to stop wildlife trafficking might sound like wishful thinking, but it actually works.

Remember that thousand pounds of manta rays the kingpin and Alex had tried to get across the border? Well, they didn't get it across the border. The army was able to confiscate it because a filmmaker had made a documentary about the manta rays, and someone in the forest service saw it.

Governments are paying more and more attention to these animals. In 2014, the United Nations enacted restrictions on the manta ray trade, and then in 2021, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration declared the giant manta ray threatened. Laws like these directly affect trade on the ground. In fact, the kingpin Malaika spoke with said he stopped trafficking manta rays because he didn't want the army to seize more shipments.

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Malaika is working with wildlife trafficking organizations to push for more laws protecting manta rays in India. "So we've gotten a baseline data survey together. We've gotten the research and data that's required to push for policy protection. It's a long process; it might take many years, but we're in it for the long run."

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"Hey, I'm Jacob Pinner on the Nat Geo audio team. All year, we're pushing our audio explorations even farther to the edges of our big, weird, beautiful world with a segment called Sound Bank: Earth, one sound at a time. Sound Bank brings you the world through the ears of Nat Geo explorers and photographers on assignment. Today's sound comes from explorer Vijay Ramesh. He was studying birds in the Western Ghats in India, when he recorded this sound, which you might notice doesn't come from a bird. Take a listen now.

Vijay was close enough to see the animal making this noise. It's a type of wild dog called a dhol. Dhole are native to southern and eastern Asia, and they're related to other canines like coyotes and jackals. As soon as he saw this dhol, Vijay started backing away. But in the distance, he heard even more of them. Now, dholes make noises that no other dog species makes. Sometimes they even whistle or cluck like a chicken. But those sounds are important because they help them communicate during a hunt. Vijay says hearing those calls in the wild was a truly haunting experience. Throughout the year, we'll have more from our sound bank. Immerse yourself in the world of a National Geographic explorer or photographer, 30 seconds at a time with a distinct sound that reveals our audible earth. Listen up for Sound Bank and more episodes of Overheard. Alright, Alana, take it away."

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"Hey, if you like what you hear and want to support more content like this, please rate and review us in your podcast app. And please consider a National Geographic subscription. That's the best way to support Overheard. Go to natgeo.com/explore to subscribe. If you want to see Maleka and Nitya's filmmaking, check out their production company at untameplanet.in. They've made films about protecting big cats, preventing pandemics, and, of course, manta ray trafficking.

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And if you want to understand why these animals are so special that they stole Maleka's heart, check out Nat Geo Wild's video, 'The Social Life of Manta Rays.' Plus, we've got an article about manta ray friendship. Turns out, manta rays have their own distinct social circles. That's all in the show notes right there in your podcast app.

This week's episode of Overheard is produced and hosted by me, Alana Strauss. Our producers are Kari Douglas and Marcy Thompson. Our senior producers are Brian Gutierrez and Jacob Pinter. Eli Chen is our senior editor. Carla Wills is our manager of audio. Our executive producer of audio is Davar Arlen. Our fact-checkers are Robin Palmer and Julie Beer. Hans Del Su composed our theme music and also sound designed and engineered this episode.

This podcast is a production of National Geographic Partners. The National Geographic Society committed to illuminating and protecting the wonder of our world funds the work of National Geographic explorers Malaika Vas and Nityasude. Whitney Johnson is the director of visuals and immersive experiences. David Brinley is National Geographic's interim editor-in-chief. Thanks for listening, and see you all next time."

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