Adam Brown on how to be resilient during a time of high stress and anxiety | Homeroom with Sal

Hi everyone, welcome to the daily homeroom live stream. Sal here from Khan Academy. For those of you who are wondering what this is, this live stream is something we started as soon as we saw schools starting to get closed around the world. Because we saw, well, we can support folks with all the content and all the software that we put out for free. We started running parent teacher webinars and we said, look, in a time of social distancing it would be pretty cool to have a place where we can feel connected, where we could talk about interesting topics. Some of them relevant to the crisis, some of them may be allowing to get our minds out of the crisis. So that's what this is and I like to remind everyone we are not for profit. We can only do this work and everything else we do because of philanthropic donations. So if you're in a position to do so, please think about making a donation.

I do want to give a special shout out to several corporate partners who've stepped up in the last few weeks, especially when they saw our costs go up because of the crisis. Bank of America, google.org, Fastly, AT&T, End of Artist. And I also want to thank the many other philanthropic and corporate partners who allow Khan Academy to do what it does. With that said, we were running at a deficit even before this crisis and we continue to run into deficit because our costs have gone higher. All that support has really helped, but we still need more. So if you're in a position to do so, please think about donating so that many, many millions of folks around the world can continue to benefit from this work.

With that said, I have a very exciting guest today. We have Adam Brown joining us from New York. He's the associate professor of psychology and director of the Trauma and Global Mental Health Lab at the New School for Social Research. So you can imagine what we might be talking about today.

So Adam, great to have you here.

Thank you, Sal. It's so nice to see you and to connect with you today.

Yeah, and just to remind everyone, I think you already get a sense of the topic we're going to be talking about: mental health. We're going to be talking about resilience, we're going to be talking about neuroscience. So if you have questions about any of those things now or during our conversation please put them on the YouTube or the Facebook message boards. We have team members who are looking at those comments and they'll surface them to myself and Adam.

But Adam, you know, before we even jump into the questions, I think we have a fun connection that between us the famous Nadia that many people know was the cousin that I started tutoring when I was 11 and she was 12 years old. I was in my 20s. You have now taken over as her advisor. [Laughter] And have been so fortunate to have come into her world and to be able to work with her over the last couple of years. I don't have to tell you how remarkable Nadia is, but the fact that she has that connection to all of your work is just really wonderful.

I had just hired Nadia as a research assistant when she just graduated Sarah Lawrence and in the commencement address someone brought up your name and mentioned that a Sarah Lawrence graduate had been the first student of Khan Academy. And I said, "Hey that's Nadia! That's so great!" And she's, and I'll talk about some of her research today, but yeah it's been great to be connected to her, your family, and now to be able to talk to you today.

Now one of the most common questions I get is whatever happened to Nadia? And I always call up Nadia's like, "There's a lot riding on your success now." Because if you're the first student, you're the... But I think that's a really fun connection. As you mentioned, she is now working with you and thinking about things like neuroscience and mental health.

So let's, you know, just jump into it. You know a lot of you know, when I read your bio you talk a lot about trauma and post-traumatic stress disorder. Before we even go into how do we deal with these types of things or what might cause it, what's a definition for these things? We hear a lot, we hear the words thrown out, but what does it mean in your sense?

You know, that's a really timely question. A lot of people have been asking me, "What is COVID-19? Is this traumatic? Is this just stressful?" It's hard to know. We're actually conducting a survey right now with thousands of people across the world actually trying to answer that question in terms of how much it disrupts people's lives. How long is this going to impact people? To what degree is it going to impair people's ability to focus, to do their work, to be caregivers? And I think one of the things that we're seeing already is no doubt a lot of people are feeling very stressed, feeling overwhelmed. But at the same time, people are being able to maintain abilities to connect with one another, to engage in their schoolwork, to care-give for family members and to friends.

In terms of definitions, one thing to think about are different kinds of symptoms that we see, different types of changes in thinking and behavior and emotions that somehow reflect the kinds of adverse experiences people have. And so when we think about stress, we tend to think about increases in arousal, people's fight-or-flight responses kicking in. And when we think about trauma, we tend to think about more long-term lasting negative changes. People having memories that are really upsetting to them, behaviors where people might not want to think about, talk about or revisit places that were really difficult for them.

And then maybe feeling really jumpy, startled, and easily agitated by reminders of that thing that made them upset. One of the things to keep in mind is we're in this really strange moment where it's, you know, COVID-19 continues to unfold. So the whole notion of post-traumatic stress is based on this idea of an event is over and then we kind of see how people adapt and respond to it. And one of the, I think, uniquely interesting and challenging things is that we need to find ways to support each other throughout the different phases of this. Some of these phases I think are going to be stressful in ways that other phases will feel, you know, challenging in other ways. And so, yeah, I would argue that in many ways this is a sort of collective trauma. It's going to be harder for some people than others, no doubt, but I think we'll also see a lot of people emerge quite strong and resilient from it, especially if we put into place certain support systems and practices throughout this time.

That's actually a fascinating definition because I think in kind of I always had a colloquial sense of these words. But I think that so stress is something that physiologically you feel it, you can even observe it, but it's a short-term phenomenon. You know, a year later you might not be able to detect either in yourself or in someone else that they went through that stress. With trauma, there will be some manifestations of it.

And what I like to tell people is that I mean the goal of life in general and the expectations is that not to never feel stressed. One of the most ancient, hardwired things and probably most universal thing we share in just about every species is this fight, flight, or freeze response. That when we perceive threat or danger our body almost unconsciously prepares itself to either run away, to attack, or to camouflage itself. And we share this mechanism; this has really evolved to keep us safe for a long, long time.

The key is not to feel stressed. What I would love to see teachers and students and parents and other community members doing is thinking about ways we can support each other to come down from that stress. You know, this is going to be a moment where we hear something on the news, if we have a conversation with someone that ramps up that stress level. That's normal, that's natural and it tends to be temporary. But then we need to have other practices in place to help us come down from that response. And part of what Nadia actually has been working with me on is actually to target certain parts of the brain that kind of do that. You know, there are inhibitory neurons, without getting too scientific too quickly, that actually signal down to our fear centers of the brain to say, you know what, you're right. That was pretty stressful. That was really a fear-provoking response. Let's come down from that now, that's not an immediate threat that we need to deal with. So that is one way that I like to think about the difference between stress and fear and maybe something more long-lasting like trauma.

And so what are, what can you do to, you know, what you just described is fascinating that there are these inhibitory neurons. How do you get them to inhibit the stress response? Or, and I guess a corollary question is how do you know whether what's going on inside of you is, you know, a healthy stress that we all feel versus something that's getting worse than that?

That's a really good, I think to the second part of your question. To me I like to think about duration and intensity. So all of us, I mean everyone listening in today, I mean, if you're anything like me, you know, first of all, you're going through a rollercoaster of emotions every single day right now. There's so many unknowns, there's so much that's unpredictable, and at some point in the day you have that feeling of fear or worry about what's happening in the world.

I think what we all want to be paying attention to is the frequency in which we experience those kinds of emotions and the intensity. How much are they disrupting our ability to concentrate, to get tasks done, to be a caregiver, to take on the different roles that we assume? And if we start to notice that they're happening more often and that we're really unable to do the work and play those roles in our lives that we need to, that's when we might want to start thinking about where do we get additional support? How do we get additional help right now to take care of ourselves and others? How do we engage those parts of our brain to send those inhibitory neurons?

I think the nice thing is there's lots of ways to do it. There's no one way, but one of the things that we're learning is that there's parts of our brain, especially something called the dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex, the DLPFC. If I could have a favorite part of the brain, it's probably that's up there because what we've found that it does is that when we're looking at something really scary and we reinterpret that as something less threatening, less dangerous, something we can contextualize and adapt to. That seems to be the part of the brain that we recruit and engage and it has those neurons that kind of send back down to parts of the brain called the amygdala.

There's a lot of ways to engage it. We found a lot of good evidence that things like mindfulness-based practices are really good. We also find that when people are engaged in things that they're committed to, that they're really focused on, where they're really not thinking about the past or the future but they're really just involved in that work. We seem to really be able to tap into the prefrontal cortex in really important ways. And specifically the ways we've done this with Nadia to bring her back, you know, into this, she and I have done some really interesting studies where we have people recalling memories where they think about times they've overcome challenges and adversity and then apply those lessons learned to the current moment.

Now of course COVID is unlike anything we've ever experienced, but we've found that when people recall memories of mastery and overcoming adversity, that subsequently seems to help people engage that part of the brain when they're confronted with new challenges. So that work is ongoing but it seems like an exciting way that we can deliberately target that part of the brain right now.

And what would you say is a common thread here? I guess maybe first, it might be useful for folks to just, you know, you mentioned mindfulness, that's a word that people might have heard before. What does that mean to y'all and I guess what aspect of that do mindfulness meditations or whatever do you think is doing the trick here?

There's so many different ways to engage in mindfulness. And for those who are less familiar with the concept, we know that from various practices, whether it's meditation, whether it's something called progressive muscle relaxation techniques where you just kind of slowly tense up different muscles and relax them. Whether it's things like yoga, whether it's even taking a long walk, you know, slowly, any practice in which you are deliberately engaging in slow diaphragmatic breathing, you know, belly breathing, where you're really not thinking about the past, you're not worrying about the future, and importantly, you're not judging yourself for how you're feeling, you're just allowing yourself to recognize whatever is going on in your mind, whatever is going on in your body, and just allowing that to be and then kind of allowing that to pass.

What we've seen almost across the board is that people who spend even as little as 15 minutes a day engaging in these different kinds of practices show quite a bit of reduction not only in terms of our perceived levels of stress, but also some really great neurological benefits as well. And mindfulness won't cure everything, but at a moment where a lot of things feel really unpredictable and we might be pretty hard on ourselves as students, as teachers, as family members, this is certainly a practice I've been recommending to people.

As we need to be very self-compassionate and kind of focused on the moments where the big picture is so full of different variables. Just you describing that, I started breathing a little bit deeper. I started tensing and relaxing some muscles and I started thinking about the present and not caring, not one cell that one's on me, it sounds good.

You know, there's something you touched on and there's a question here from Facebook which is interesting. Our salon Ansari asks, "Can stress be beneficial sometimes?" Because you did mention that there might be aspects of this that make us more resilient.

Yes, in a couple of different ways. And if we think about stress as a motivator, there's certain kinds of stress that's particularly helpful. What we want to think about in terms of stressful experiences or things that we find intellectually engaging. So I think, you know, thinking about the classroom, what kinds of activities give our students a sense of purpose, meaning, and direction at the appropriate level? So things that are challenging but not boring and not overwhelming, in which they feel like there are, you know, either teachers, parents, others who can scaffold that experience for them.

But that really directs them towards inactivity and towards problem-solving, that kind of stress is really good stress. And the really cool thing about it is that we actually see neural benefits associated with it. For example, we know that mildly stressful challenges for young kids in the earliest stages of development are critical for brain growth. And similarly, across the lifespan, when we look at older adults who take on new challenges that are somewhat uncomfortable but they have to really stick with it, like learning a new language, maybe picking up an instrument. It's pretty difficult at first; it can be a little stressful.

But that commitment to learning that new task actually can support brain health in a lot of really important ways. So the idea, and I should also say there was a great study done by Dan Gilbert at Harvard a number of years ago where he would text people and say, "What are you doing right now and how happy are you?" And frankly, when people weren't doing anything, they weren't very happy. When we're just mind wandering and we're not really paying attention to things, we're not so happy. But when we're engaged, when we're focused, when we're challenged at the right level, it's a little stressful, but it brings more meaning, it brings greater levels of happiness, and I think ultimately does make us more resilient.

That's fascinating. And you know you mentioned for very young children that these mild stresses are actually essential for brain growth. What are examples of those mild stresses?

I think about, you know, a lot of the work that's gone into social emotional learning with kids, where the idea isn't to tell a child exactly what to do, but you put them into more open-ended scenarios where the child gets to explore on their own the way they might use materials, the ways that they might problem solve. You know, I'm thinking back now to my kids when they were two and three and having their first classroom experiences and just watching them negotiate social relationships even at those very, very young ages.

You know, sometimes that's kind of messy and it's kind of a little difficult, but through those interactions, through them trying to really discover how to work with materials, you know, I'm sure you know with your kids as well, you see this really wonderful mastery type thing that happens when kids are challenged and a little bit stressed, where they might try the same thing over and over again until they really get the hang of it—like going down the slide or being on some kind of equipment that's kind of challenging at first. We see kids really playing that out a lot of scenarios that ultimately I think in part why we see that investing in early childhood education is so important is because kids are really getting to experience the stress that comes along with that but then being able to resolve it and ultimately overcome it in that practice.

That process again and again is so important for long-term well-being and good educational outcomes, and that's very consistent with a lot of what we talk about. You know, we talk about mastery learning and students being in their kind of zone, you know, right at that learning edge, slightly out of their comfort zone but not too far out of it, so it makes a lot of sense.

It's very much, I think, you know, for anyone who does exercise or trains or weight lifts, there's obviously a very strong analogy with what happens with your muscles when you stress them. Obviously, you don't try to lift 500 pounds; you know your arms might fall off, that's not good, that's trauma. But if you lose, if you're able to lift five, ten, maybe twenty, maybe, you know, whatever your zone or proximal, that actually can put some positive stress and you grow. So it sounds like there's a very strong, a lot of parts of our body work that way, I guess is one way to think about it.

So that we're getting a lot of questions here on, well, you know, from YouTube, Wade asks, "What are ways you can recommend to encourage someone suffering from depression to adopt helpful habits in this time of remoteness?"

That's such a good question. One of the biggest things that I would like to emphasize is that we've still, we've come a long way I think with even, you know, Sal, even the fact that we have this space right now to talk about mental health I think signals that there's a greater openness to talking about these issues in ways that a few decades ago we never would have been sharing in this way. So that's already a great sign, and we need to go even further though. I think to really destigmatize what it means to be a person suffering with mental health issues.

One of the things that I would recommend is to really think about talking to people about that mind-body connection, that when we're feeling down, when we're feeling depressed or really sad, it's not only taking a toll on us mentally, but we actually know there's quite a bit of brain science to show that it's taking a toll on our bodies as well. That our immune systems, our neurological functioning, all of this in some way is being impacted by depression. And what's really interesting is that when we see people getting help and getting support, not only do we shorten the length of how long people are depressed, but we actually reduce the number of times in their lifetime that they also have more episodes of depression.

So I know there's a long-standing feeling like depression and mental health is something that's hard to talk about with each other, but to be honest the sooner we can open up with each other if we're struggling and the sooner we get support for it, the shorter it will be, the less intense it will be, the reduction in impact on our bodies, you know, we'll ultimately see.

And I think ultimately, you know, those kinds of folks will be showing fewer of those negative behaviors. So just maybe try to have those conversations around both the physical and mental, sometimes that's a really good weigh-in. And you mentioned these supports. You know, I obviously there's the, you can get true support, you can go to a, be able to get, you know, medical help, go to a psychologist, like psychiatrist. Is there a spectrum of other things? You know, are there other activities that someone could engage in that could help, you know, habits?

Yeah, absolutely. So what I like to think about mental health is, I mean, if you look at the statistics, almost everyone in the US, for example, at some point will either experience a mental health issue at some point or know someone that does. It's about one in five adults; it's roughly one in six kids. The numbers are pretty staggering.

But that doesn't mean that everyone is experiencing very severe mental health issues and there will be times when people do need that more specialized care. But I think there's a lot that we can do for each other especially right now to help us weather some of these, you know, anxieties and depression that we might feel. I mean a couple of really basic things that people can be thinking about are, not even the mental health things, but our brains crave routine. You know, to the extent that we can be structuring our days in ways that mimic life pre-COVID would be really, really helpful.

Making sure that you get enough sleep, I mean I can't tell you how many studies come out that say if there's one or two things you can do for yourself around mental health is to get a good sleep habit. Good sleep hygiene not only reduces mental health issues following trauma, but also helps people bounce back even faster if they've been through some kind of upheaval.

Social support is probably one of the biggest. I mean, there's a lot of really interesting genetic studies, for example, showing that people might be more or less sensitive to different kinds of stressors, but if they have good support systems, not thousands of, you know, followers but even two people that they can reach out to, to say "Hey, can I get some help with this right now? Can we talk a little bit?" We see dramatic buffering of stressors in people's lives if they've got a few people. That's especially true with kids.

There's a long history of research to show that children growing up in really difficult circumstances, if they have one adult, one caregiver in their life that they can go to, they'll tend to do significantly better over time. And then I would say the last thing is just having something in your life that brings you a lot of joy, a lot of meaning, that you can really stay committed to throughout whatever else is going on in your life. So those are some of the common elements that we see that can really support people, even, you know, in addition to or separate from therapy.

That's super helpful! I think people hear a lot about sleep, but I think what you just said underlines it even more. Like, don't think of it as something that is a nice-to-have; it is a must-have. And having even that one person, ideally more, that you can just open up and support you, that's very tangible and I think doable for a lot of folks.

From YouTube, G is asking what do you recommend to help kids who are a bit negative in outlook especially when faced with a challenge, even slightly out of their comfort zone?

That's a really great question and sometimes those kinds of thought processes are a little bit hard to shift. But there I would get back to that idea of mastery and experience. And you know sometimes just having a conversation with an adult or a child, you know, you're not really going to convince them that working on a task or taking something on is going to be good for them or fun or meaningful. I think it has to come through experience and thinking creatively about what kinds of activities you can give them even if they're skeptical to try.

And through that process, you know, come out of that with a feeling of accomplishment. One thing that I want to emphasize there is it's not only the experience of doing, but it's also the feedback that kids and adults get after the experience. And what I mean by that is we have seen in several studies now that when you reflect back to someone, "I noticed that you did that well" or "You know, I saw that you stepped up in that particular way. I was really impressed that you did that."

We actually find that that kind of social feedback actually makes people more resilient, better emotion regulators after the fact when they get that kind of social feedback. So for everyone now, you know, interacting with others whether you're living in close quarters or you're far away from each other, just to be thinking about the words we use when we point out to each other. "I noticed that you really handled that well," or "I saw the way that you were taking that on." That actually instills a sense of positivity and resilience in others, and so that might be another way to really, you know, help with that negative outlook.

I think that combination of doing and social feedback is really critical. No, I take that feedback to heart. I even think about even in work, you know, sometimes I get very task-oriented and I'll talk to a team member, I was like "Hey, we're doing this by this afternoon, right? What is it?" And I think I need to take a step back especially now, but frankly always. And make sure I’m appreciating the things that I am appreciating, but I'm vocalizing it.

And something you know you just mentioned even reminds me of some of my interactions I’ve been having with my 11-year-old lately, where it's actually the roles have been reversed. We’ve been playing a lot of chess and he's getting quite good. Some of my fatherly ego is being, and so you know sometimes when he has an unusually good movement I’m like, "Okay, he has a peace advantage," and I feel like quitting. And sometimes I just like, "Okay, you got this game." And then I've seen that he never quits, he literally even if I have an advantage, he will keep playing.

And I've said, "Okay, you've inspired me, you've taught me." Because sometimes he actually comes back and he's actually teaching me that, but hopefully by me praising his resilience, his grit, that he's building that skill outside of, out of the chessboard. So I guess related to that, Muhammad Ibrahim from Facebook is asking, "How can we make students deal better with mistakes when to tolerate them? How they benefit the best from making mistakes instead of losing their confidence?"

That's a good question. I mean we hear about growth mindset, mistakes and failures when you grow, but as a parent sometimes you knew that when they were going to pour that milk, it's going to end up in a disaster. So I'd like to offer a slightly different interpretation of that or maybe suggestion that maybe others wouldn't. I would say look to your parents, your teachers, other relatives that might be in your life that kind of flexibility, the coming back from mistakes is something that we've all gone through.

One of the things I don't think we do enough, you know, as much as we spend time with each other is to really share in those kinds of stories. And one of the things that I've personally found to be unbelievably helpful, I try to do this a little bit with my kids, certainly do with my students also, is to actually ask them to go back and to find stories of our elders, of our family members, of our teachers, our role models that we connect with and to find out from them, you know, when they went through something that was really hard and maybe they made a mistake and they had to bounce back from.

You know, to kind of think about that perfectionism that a lot of us carry around, how did other people manage those challenges? And what we actually see from some research studies is the more we know those stories, the more we're able to connect with the mistakes and the successes of people in our lives, the more we can kind of say to ourselves, "Wow, you know, I'm connected to that person. I can't believe they went through that. I can't believe they overcame it." That kind of helps to contextualize what I'm going through and understand it and frame it a little bit different.

There's the power of those intergenerational stories are unbelievably helpful, I think, in dealing with those kinds of mistakes that all of us will experience at some time. Super profit advice. And some of the hopefully the benefit of this live stream we've had, you know, some folks who are titans of industry and it looks like they've just did everything right in their life, but to have here, you know, I asked them questions about times that they were really, you know, had made massive failures.

A lot of us would have been really stressed or even depressed in those circumstances. Actually, I'll turn that on you, Adam. You have anything to share? You know, moments in your own life where you're just like, well…

I mean, two things in particular. One, I tell my students in my lab and in my research methods class every semester, I hope your studies fail. I want everyone to experience what it's like to design a study and it for not to work out because I think from those failures emerge is often more creative ideas that we shouldn't be always looking to just succeed, but it's really about learning from the process.

And so to me, that's a critical failure is just as important as success so much of the time. You know, I think about my own career too. My career to being a psychologist was so not linear. I thought I'm definitely going to do, you know, something totally different as a career and was so sure of it and I was totally wrong. And that ultimately led me to something I think I love even more. But we have to go at it with all of our energy and our commitment. We have to take those intellectual risks.

We have to take them with others, you know, as communities in order to ultimately discover the things that bring us the greatest meaning and joy. We won't discover it unless we take those chances. We have to be, you know, really not only okay with making those stakes, but I think be prepared for them. I see them as critical to this entire process.

That's super powerful! I actually had a conversation with a close friend a couple of days ago and he was telling me he's a professional investor and he was saying that he had one of his first investments a few years ago just completely wiped out, you know, complete failure. It was a disaster on a lot of levels and a potential investor in his fund he met that day. And he was so distraught even though you wouldn't normally tell an investor about this disaster that you happened. He just opened up and how reflective.

And that when the investor heard it, he's like now I'm ready to invest in you because I see how you deal with failure. I see that you learn from your failure. I see that you're reflective of it. And so now I think you're ready to manage more. So I think other people also see that in you when they see how you can when you cope and learn from and grow from that failure. You know, not to get too, I guess dark here because this has been super valuable and we're running short on time. But there's a lot of questions here and this one is pretty relevant from YouTube, Susanna Garcia Domenges asks, "What is the appropriate way to acknowledge the people who have passed due to COVID or maybe or even sick? I feel like the debts are minimized due to statistics."

Wow, I could not agree more with that person. So thank you for bringing that question. I mean one of the things that I'm hoping for and have been kind of waiting for are more regular moments of mourning and acknowledgement of all of the people that have been lost. It's something I think a lot of us are doing very privately throughout our days, but we really haven't had a sort of national or even state or city level, you know, moments.

There's been a lot of celebration and recognition of the heroism and bravery which is really wonderful to see especially in New York. But I agree, I think we need to find ways to acknowledge and mark all of the loss and suffering that's been taking place. And just I don't have a great answer, but just to say to that person that your concern is among the top three or four things that I've heard from people at the WHO, for example, around mental health is how are we going to help people engage in rituals and traditions that are almost always social in nature that are so hard to do right now?

So just to say I hear you. This is a really big question and even the experts don't have great answers. But for all those on the caller who watch this, just to say we kind of need all of you to really think about new ways that we can come together and support one another in these really, really dark times.

I don't think the answers are going to come from psychologists and psychiatrists alone. I think it's really going to take a lot of thoughtful, smart, and especially young people to come up with new solutions to how do we grieve? How do we mourn all of this loss and trauma right now?

So Adam, you know, we're already over time. These conversations go faster than I ever expect, and there's so much good here. But this has been really valuable. I think a lot of very tangible things for folks. I mean number one, sleep. Number two, make sure you have some type of support, find people, be open with them. And I guess the corollary to that is make yourself open to other people, be there for other people who might be—and you know whatever they're going through, who knows? You won't even know unless you make yourself open.

And then, you know, some of these techniques you mentioned, whether it's mindfulness and other things they could be a preventative just so to make you a little bit more resilient or especially if you start to feel like your behavior, your thinking is getting a little awry, seek help, but also try to build some more of these habits is what I took away. Anything I missed?

Just to be really self-compassionate and forgiving right now. I mean these are really unknown, you know, times that are unlike anything else we've ever experienced. And I know so many of us, whether we're students or teachers or parents, we walk around with these models in our head of we have to be doing everything just right and we need to try our hardest— that's, you know, of course. But we also need to recognize that this is, you know, a new normal every single day and we are working and living and caring in ways that we've never could have imagined a few months ago. So please, you know, during these times, please be good to yourself, be kind to yourself, and others, a lot of this is going to be temporary and a lot of this will be things that we continue to talk about, you know, well into the future. But I do think we need to be extra kind and extra supportive of ourselves right now.

Well, thanks so much, Adam. That was super, super valuable. And thanks for everyone else for joining this session. You know, as you see, there's just a lot of interesting conversations. Thank you everyone for your questions and, you know, thanks for being part of this live stream and we will see everyone tomorrow at the same time.