UChicago's Jim Nondorf on authentic applications to get accepted into college | Homeroom with Sal

Hi everyone! Welcome to our daily homeroom live stream. This is our way at Khan Academy of keeping everyone in touch during school closures. Obviously, as an organization with a mission of providing a free world-class education for anyone, anywhere, we put a huge emphasis on how do we put our materials together to support parents and teachers. We've been running parent webinars, teacher webinars, and this is really a part of that process.

I do like to remind folks we are not for profit. If you're in a position to do so, please think about making a donation to Khan Academy. We were running at a deficit even before this crisis, and our deficit has gotten a little bit worse now that our costs have gone up. I do want to give a special thanks to several corporations that have helped us out, especially through this crisis: Bank of America, Google.org, AT&T, Novartis, and Fastly. They stepped up in really record time, and even with their significant help, we are still digging into our reserves in order to be able to do the work we do. So once again, if you're in a position to do so, please think about donating.

So I am super excited about our guest today, and I see that I'm freezing up a little bit, at least on my screen. Felipe in the background, let me know if I'm freezing up a little bit too much. But my guest today is Jim Nondorf, who is the head of admissions at the University of Chicago. Is that a fair way of describing you, Jim? We're going to be talking about college admissions and all the rest. So I've been told. Let me close my other tabs that might be slowing down my computer.

But so maybe a good place to start, Jim, is tell us how you are in college admissions at the University of Chicago. But I'm assuming it's indicative of a lot of other places. How are you thinking about the COVID crisis and next year's admissions?

Oh, well, we're thinking about it in a lot of ways. Obviously, the university as a whole is making plans for what we can do on campus and what we will do online. Currently, our students are online, as almost every school that I can think of is doing. In terms of the admissions efforts, we are kind of doubling down in making sure that all the things that a student needs to do to learn about our school, to learn about how to apply to highly selective schools, to write good essays, to showcase their academic promise, that all of that is being communicated to them in a whole host of ways.

We have opened up so many different online tours, info sessions, Spanish information sessions. We've got alumni doing work; we've got tour guide panels. And all of this is not just about the University of Chicago. It's really to help all the students understand, you know, what do you need to do over the next six to seven months to be prepared to apply to any school. In some odd way, there you could actually do more and be better prepared to put a great application together through all the resources that UChicago and I know my peers are putting together for our students.

So I mean, this is not the time to panic. This is actually the time to focus on the things you can do, not what you can't do. I want to remind all the viewers, whether you're on YouTube or Facebook, to put your questions in. We have team members monitoring. This is your chance to ask Jim really anything, and I'm happy to answer any questions that you might have as well.

But Jim, maybe a good place, you know, as you mentioned, this isn't a time to panic; everything's going to be fine. But you know, we've had previous sessions where we talked about the SAT and AP tests, and kids are worried about some tests getting cancelled or they're different this year. How are you all thinking about the test optionality of things or these new types of tests?

Sure! So, testing and the fact that students are online doing their high school work, and some of their grading has gone from letter grades to pass/fail, all of this is happening. I want to assure all the families that admissions officers do not have their heads stuck in the sand or stuck up other places, which I've been told I do on occasion. You know, we actually know what's going on in the world, and we are trying to accommodate those things.

So I'll start, I guess, with the testing. So many students have taken tests. For those students that haven't taken tests, there will be testing available in the fall. UChicago is test optional, so we do not require testing. You can submit your testing if you've already taken it, you're good at it, or you could print out some of the work you've done on Khan and send that in and tell us, "Oh, I’ve achieved mastery of this."

There are all kinds of tests: APs, SAT2s, ACTs, all of this. If you've done it and you want to submit it, great! Many schools are going to be test optional this year. Some of the flagship state publics, many of my peers, and there's over a thousand schools that were already test optional. For the schools that are still going to require testing, I guarantee there will be testing opportunities in the fall, either live, in person, the way it had been. I know the College Board is adding test sittings, and every month, I believe beginning in August, there will be a test sitting.

Then, if no one is allowed to, if the virus gets worse and we're all back home and unable to go to a test center and take tests with other people, the SAT will be online. They have guaranteed that they will offer an online version. So whether you are applying to schools that require testing or do not require testing, everything will be fine. Just continue to study hard, work hard, and do the things you can do. Everything will be fine; there's no need to worry about it, I guess is the best way to say it.

And we're getting a ton of questions, and I actually want to get to these questions, but you know you mentioned test optional, and I think test optional has always been a little bit confusing for some students. What's your read of test optional? You know, it doesn't mean if you do well on the SAT or ACT that's great. What if you didn't do well? How are you at a disadvantage somehow?

You definitely are not at a disadvantage applying without testing to test optional schools. So the way I think of testing is it's one way of showcasing your academic promise. Some students, instead of submitting testing, they submit amazing artwork or music. I have students who have built business plans; they have patents already; they run companies. I have students who just get a little nervous about taking testing. You have students who have not had access to test prep. You have students who, the worst of all sins, they did not know about Khan Academy! And so these students, testing didn't showcase their very best. The testing does not showcase who they are.

So send me something else in lieu of that, a paper that you're really proud of. There's no reason to feel, and every school will tell you this, testing is not the be-all end-all. It can be an important part of your application, but it doesn't have to be.

That's super helpful. I mean, just going with that theme from YouTube, Ben QB asks: "Will you guys look at AP tests from this year because AP test is clearly a little bit different? How are y'all thinking about that?"

We will. So, we never required the AP tests in the past, and we will look at them essentially the same way we've looked at them. If students who have taken the AP and decided to take the AP online tests, we'll treat them as valid just as we did any other testing. We have crediting policies for students who are admitted and come, so no change in how we will view the APs, and I think that will be the case for most of my peers.

This is, here again, if a student is nervous about taking their testing online, I'm sure we will understand. Some students just won't take the AP test this year because they were nervous about doing it online, and we will understand that and be accommodating for that.

And I actually want to double click on that because there is this perception, especially with students who might want to go to a place like the University of Chicago, they have these archetypes in their mind. You know, the kid who gets a five on five AP tests, and then she gets a 1500 on their SAT, and they do X, Y, and Z. But some of what you just said isn't that you're saying there's other ways, but I think there might be people who are skeptical. They're like, "Well, he's just saying that because he wants my application." Convince us.

No, all right, sure! I will. All right. So I'll start with, so at places like Chicago, I used to work for Yale. I go to all these meetings with the other Ivy deans. You know, at Chicago, I get about 300 kids with perfect SATs apply every year, and we reject 60 percent of them. Now that's supposed to make you feel good. If you're online, don't freak out. This is supposed to make you feel good. It basically says that the testing is only one piece of holistic review.

We care about your grades and your activities and your essays. In fact, the vast majority of my advocates are more than qualified. I have about thirty-five thousand applicants; thirty thousand of them would do really well at UChicago. When you get down to the last ten thousand, essentially, they're academically identical. Everybody's got good grades, good testing, put things together.

When you get down to the last five thousand, I could fill everyone in the freshman class and replace them with the waitlist, and nobody would know the difference. No, I'm kidding! I would never do that. Be careful. The quality of the applicants is great, and that's not what differentiates you. That's not what makes you a Chicago student. What makes you a Chicago student is what you put into the essays and how you respond and the kind of person you are, and your love of learning.

If that comes through in the application, then we admit you. Don't really entertain anybody. I know you're one of the nicest of people I know.

So yeah, Jim does not do any killing! One thing—I mean, you just touched on that, you know, put in your essays—that authenticity, that's something we talk a lot about. I love your insider's point of view of how you spot authentic versus inauthentic applications.

Sure! So one of the things you'll hear from almost any of the highly selective deans is that everything kind of holds together. You know, the student's voice that you hear in their first essay, which is about kind of who they are, you know, with their background, what they believe in, that voice will then carry on in their second essay, which is typically unique to each school.

So we have our zany UChicago prompts, and the voice and the kind of person you're meeting there will be in the second essay. They'll be in the third one, which is, you know, "Why do you want to go to my school? Why are you a good fit for UChicago?" If the voice is consistent across all of those, and the kind of kid you're hearing, the teacher recommendations will reinforce that same thing.

So you can really tell when somebody else has been involved. And so if I had one strong piece of advice for all the families listening and students listening, it's don't let adults get involved in writing your essays. We can smell them a mile away. They should sound like a 17-year-old, not a 41-year-old lawyer. And so, you know, all that, all the work, the whole application should kind of tell the same story and a story of the kind of kid you want on your campus.

Did that? That's super helpful! If you want to share, at any point, I'd love to hear stories of applications that were clearly written by the 41-year-old lawyer.

Oh my God! You know, I have this one that I really just, you know. So I have one where it was from another school, but their dean and I were talking, and it was like I was on their campus, and the only thing buzzing more than the bees was me at all the academic opportunities. And I was like, no 17-year-old would ever write like that.

But on the flip side, I will never forget this one wonderful essay that I read from a girl that I referred to as the cannibal essay. She was at an all-girls Catholic school in California, and our essay prompt that year was: "Cats and dogs, Montagues and Capulets, Autobots and Decepticons—there are two kinds of people in this world. What are they?" She wrote about how there was an earthquake and they were all trapped—how she would divide the student body into those students she would eat and the students she would not eat.

It was hysterical and funny and something clearly only a 17-year-old would write. And the last part was, you know, it's not whether they're juicy and succulent; it's whether they're interesting, and that's why I would eat them and that's why I want to go to Chicago—to be around interesting people and eat them. I guess. And she—we admitted her, and I checked her roommates, and they're always alive, so everything's fine.

But you know, this is the time. You know, it's memorable. It speaks to who they are. No, this has got a little bit more bid on some of these points, but I think your point is exactly right that, you know, these things that are quirky, that aren't a template, that show clear creativity definitely stand out clearly for you.

I mean, do we make the Jim Nondorfs of the world smile and remember that? Seems like a pretty good indicator. So a lot more questions here from YouTube. Adithya Gupta asks, "How is the inability to compete in sports, change in standardized testing, along with changing access to extracurricular activities affecting the admissions?"

That is a great question because, well, it falls into two categories. So first, there's like the athletes who thought are hoping to be recruited. And you should not worry because the coaches are going to be submitting testing. I mean, videos. Some coaches may reach out to you and ask you to video yourself doing certain activities, whether it's how fast you run or agility drills and things like that.

The varsity coaches will lead you along the way, and the process for getting that started is pretty much the same for everybody. You go online to the schools you're interested in, you go to the websites of the athletic departments of the specific team that you're interested in, and there will be a forum for you to fill out that says, "You know, I'm interested," and they ask you all the details. You know, I can bench press this much, run this fast, whatever the case might be.

So outside of being a recruited athlete, what you do, whatever you were doing, we will take it that, you know, we kind of look at it and say, "Well, they probably would have done that this last spring." Whether you were an athlete or a singer or you do community service, you take care of an elderly relative, you work—there's nothing wrong with working. Whether you are a thespian, it doesn't—what you specifically do doesn't matter. What matters is that you're passionate about something, that you're engaged in it, that you like it, that you learn from it—that you learn teamwork—and that can be done in many ways.

And the fact that you had one season off is not going to make an impact at all. Please do not worry about that. Every time I give talks, I was giving one right before the stay-at-home orders with Sushmil, who is a wonderful guy and one of my best friends at MIT, and he was saying how, you know, that we talk about this and we say there is no set of things that everybody has to check to get in. You know, if you didn't do community service, we're like, "Ooh, they must be like, you know, killing baby seals at night." You know, we don't think that. It's not what you don't do; it's what you do, you know, that we're interested in.

And so really try to try not to worry about what you're missing. Just engage in something else. No, Jim, you're infectious! You make me want to apply to college.

Awesome! We would take you in a second!

Yeah, I know it! So we're getting a whole series of questions here that are dealing with COVID. From Facebook, Aditi Daga asks: "Do you think that trends for the class of '21 will continue for future classes? What changes do you see for '22 onwards?"

From Facebook, Carolyn Khan Sorkin asks: "If many of the high school class of '20 kids take a gap year, how will this affect admissions, I guess, for waitlist this year and for next year's class?"

Well, there are a lot of things there, so why don't I give you some of the, you know, we're in unchartered territory to be very honest. Who knows what's going to happen? I'll give you what the things that I am expecting.

So right now we don't have any more kids asking for a gap year than we've ever had. We always have about, you know, 15-20 this time of year, and they're doing really cool and exciting things, and I want them to do it. In terms of how, what things are going to take place, here's my theory on this, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it, Sal.

You know, maybe it's 15-20 years ago, all of a sudden everyone realized it's a global world, and we should have study abroad programs. You know, maybe it was longer ago, but really, everybody jumped onto study abroad because you needed to know that there are other cultures and engage them, and you learn. It has become an important part of every school's academic program.

And we are learning a lot about what is useful in online teaching. I could imagine over the years ahead that there would be a reason to have online virtual classes even during your four years with no other external pushes. But because when you graduate, you are going to need to know how to do these things: how to be self-directed, how to sit and listen to a video for, you know, 45 minutes and pull out the important things.

It's what you're going to do if you work for Goldman Sachs. It's what you're going to do if you become a teacher, a lawyer, it doesn't matter. And so I think the skills that students will need in the future, that online education could be a part of that, just like study abroad is.

I don't think it's going to be all online, and I would— I think you get enormous value in our residential four-year model, but I do think that there's always something you can learn in every crisis. You know, in every crisis, in every war, something comes up. You know, we wouldn't have had penicillin if there weren't a war. You know, it's these are opportunities—these challenges create opportunities.

I know I can say for my own area, so college admissions, that we are going to continue offering virtual activities, online activities, the ability for students to—we're creating a jukebox, essentially, a jukebox—all of the videos of classes that we have. There will be more opportunities for students because of this crisis than there were in the past, and it will be more available to students of also socioeconomic backgrounds.

You know, it is great that a student can actually get more information about Chicago today than they could have in the past, and all of it is free. They basically only have to go online as opposed to a hotel room, a flight to Chicago, you know, and those things. So there's a lot of benefit that's going to come out of this. It's hard to see that now, but I really do believe that.

And related to that, I know your focus is on admissions, but I'm sure you're part of the broader conversation at the university. How is the university thinking about contingency planning for this back to school or if the virus picks back up?

Sure! So, every school is thinking about this. I can tell you that one of the huge values we have at Chicago is that we are also part of a multi-billion dollar hospital, the Chicago Medical Center. We are working with the epidemiologists. We are learning a lot about how do you operate in the midst of the epidemic? How do you make sure that doctors don't get sick? How do you make sure nurses don't get sick? All of the important aspects of social distancing and using what kind of masks and things like that?

We are learning, and we're looking at how do we take that expertise and that learning and leverage it into the fall? So our first and highest goal will be to make sure that our students are safe and that they're back on campus learning the way we would want them to. You know, obviously, you have multiple contingency plans where maybe everybody doesn't come back or, you know, if things go terrible in the fall, I'm sure, you know, governors of many states will tell their universities they can't open.

But we are going to do everything we can to be open and to be teaching and engaging our students because we don't want that opportunity. This is important; it's important for their education; it's important for the country. And quite honestly, this is what the university is all about. I feel we're very well prepared for it. Thankfully, because we have a great hospital right next door to us, a lot of places, they don't have those experts. They don't have hospitals, you know, essentially on their campus.

Even places that have wonderful hospitals, they're not attached. You know, they're in a different part of the city; they're on the other side, and they're not even in the same city. At Chicago, the Medical Center is essentially the next quad over from the main quad. And so we are committed to engaging our students. We're going to do a lot of virtual things online with them this summer. I'm going to do a lot of virtual things online with prospects this summer, and my hope is that we will have tours and our students will be back in the fall.

That's great, and obviously, none of us really knows what's going to happen, but it sounds like you'll have a good handle on it. Another question about test optional I'll extend a little bit. YouTube from YouTube, GoldenBucket asks: "Where is the list that has—oh no, actually, there's a different one. Oh, this is from Amy S. Morgenstein. That's the question I wanted to ask from Facebook. Jim, what has been your experience going test optional? Do you ever miss the SAT/ACT as a tool?"

And I'll extend it a little bit because not only are the tests optional, a lot of school districts, I know, went to pass/fail this past term. Who knows what happened? So there's this general trend that at least on these academic numerical objective measures, you might have less data than you typically have. Is that true, especially with test optional? And how do you navigate that?

Sure! So, I guess I'd start with you need to have some kind of valid information that comes in, and the transcript is great for that; testing is great for that. What I think test optional schools do is we offer other opportunities—other ways and other things that students can send in. In terms of what do I do? I miss it, well, to be honest, 85-90 percent of my applicants do send in testing because they think testing is a good representation of their academic quality. That's great!

In terms of their worries about what else could they send in, I think a good applicant and a good application and a good college search all starts with—I'll start with the same thing—which is, let me think about myself. What makes me unique? What makes me special? What makes me a good fit for schools?

Then you go and you visit schools, and you learn about what makes them unique. Eventually, I'm a big believer you'll get a vibe, and you can get that vibe even electronically, and you'll get a sense: This is the right school for me. Then they look at what they're looking for, and you try to showcase those attributes in your application.

If I want to get really specific about this on the testing piece, so students sometimes see students take the test, you know, three, five, seven, nine times, and I am like, that's one, you look neurotic; and two, you should write it down as an extracurricular activity. You've taken it so many times. Testing is not to be taken that many. You take it a couple of times, and that's what your score is, and then you can submit it if you'd like to.

The reason I say that is because within a hundred points, it just doesn't matter in the admissions committee room. You know, I see students—like a student who's taken the test and got a 1580, and then they take it four more times. One, it's a waste of time, and it doesn't reflect positively on them as a person.

And so it really is the same thing with GPAs, like the most worthless piece of information I get is the GPA. Because I get it in every conceivable format: 4.0, 5.0, 6.0, 10.0, 12.0, weighted, unweighted, desktops, quintiles, quartiles. Sometimes they just give you smiley faces at schools, and we still have to figure out a way to look at that applicant and say, "How did you do? What did you take? You know, have you prepared yourself?"

In general, most of my applicants have done very well on their academic pieces. What's going to make them stand out in an applicant pool like we have and like my very highly selective peers have is what makes their rest of their application compelling.

And that quite honestly comes through teacher recommendations, the extracurriculars they do, and in many ways their essays. These essays tell us so much about their dreams and the kinds of students they are and the kind of learners they are and what kind of an impact they're going to make on our campus and on the world.

And, you know, we talked about the kids who do submit the test. There's that, as you mentioned, 10 to 15 percent who, for whatever reasons, might not. One, how do you do that? And how are they able to show, at least on the academic side, that they can be in the same academic environment as that, you know, the students who are scoring very well on these tests?

Sure! So some of them will actually take, spend a lot of time on Khan Academy, and they can—and I can see that they have acquired the skills. That's another excellent way to validate your grades in high school is by doing work on Khan Academy. That's like an easy one; a one that shows me two things: one, mastery; but even more important, it shows me work ethic. You know, the kids who are not naturally good at math but keep plugging away at it, that's a great skill to have.

So that's one set. I would also say there's another set of students for whom both the full test score is not as relevant to what they're planning to do when they get to UChicago or many schools. Great example: art history. I could have an applicant who puts together this amazing art history application, and they've done all of this work, and they write these amazing essays.

You can see they are going to get a PhD in art history and probably, you know, change the field. And the fact that they have a 600 maybe on their math SAT section doesn't matter, you know, to me. I don’t like—I don’t need to know. It tells me that what I need to know is can they do the math requirement at UChicago? I can look at their transcript, and it says they have a B+ in AP calculus, sold! You are going to be a great UChicago art historian.

That's super useful! And I guess related to that from Facebook, I have this question from Mehrum Hamoud, who asks: "How to guide our kids to the most suitable college or path in their higher education?" And I'll just add to that, you know, there tends to sometimes be an obsession with the UChicago's of the world, the highly selective universities. It causes anxiety. People try to—you know, their whole ego, their identity is defined by where they go to school. What advice do you have for folks?

Well, so I'll start with there is no be-all end-all school other than the University of Chicago, of course. And in many ways, please do not equate your sense of self-worth, your value, your accomplishments to getting into any highly selective school. If that's not how it works, this is not our process. It is not about evaluating students and saying this student is good and the student is bad. This is an economics problem set.

I have a limited number of spaces for students, and I have many, many more wonderful, amazing students that I would love to take that I can actually take and have on campus. Admissions, I want you to know that admissions officers become very attached to their applicants. Sometimes, you know, people cry in admissions committee—some, not me—but sometimes they cry because, you know, they've become so attached to these students.

And so that's the first thing is don't—this process is not about placing a value on you as a person or on your accomplishments. The second piece of that is how do you go about thinking, "Where do I—where am I a good fit?" And you are in great—you’re in a great position right now because every school is putting together a lot of ways for you to do that from your home.

If it were me, I would start at a high level and say, "Okay, I'm going to look at three large private research universities, their websites, and videos, and tours, and attend a class online." Then I'm going to do that for three liberal arts colleges, and I'm gonna do it for three large public schools. And I'm going to get a sense of what the vibe is—what ones I liked, what resonated with me.

After you do that, then you can go and look deeper into that category. So let's say you looked at UChicago, into much less positive and totally inferior schools like Harvard and Princeton, and then you visit the three of our schools. You say, "Wow, I really like research universities." Well, then you can look at other fine institutions like Stanford and Yale and everybody else.

But it's getting a sense of what's a good fit for you at the beginning. Once you've done that, that's when you start the process of saying, "What makes—why would they want me? Why am I a good fit for that?" And it takes a little selfie evaluation and examination. Then you choose a nice, balanced college list, which has some schools that are highly selective and some that are selective and some that are less selective than that, and some schools where you think you're an excellent fit.

You apply to them, and I can tell you that in general, everybody pretty much goes to college. You know, if you do these things, you will have options. And that's what this process—a good process will leave you with—options.

Super, super valuable! I have this question from YouTube. Aditya Gupta asks: "Jim, what happens if you come from a disadvantaged school with limited resources compared to more schools in affluent communities? How do you stand out with limited resources?"

Awesome! So there are many ways to do it, and they're all the same ways that the well-resourced students can do. Anybody can write a great essay. Anybody can engage locally in their community. What anybody can—hopefully if you don't have internet access at home, eventually libraries will open, and you can go to the library, your local library, and learn a little bit about these schools.

Many schools, so we have a whole set of programs for first-generation students. We have our Odyssey program, which is essentially for families of loss who have less financial means. We have fly-ins. We do programming for these students in community-based organizations. We partner up with programs like Questbridge or Jack Kent Cooke Foundation and, you know, these programs where we—we essentially if your school wants my admissions officer to come and give a talk to you alone or all of your classmates, we have those options available.

We are committed, and we're not the only school. My peers are equally committed to doing this, and then we set aside hundreds of millions of dollars to ensure that you can come to the University of Chicago. So, or Yale or Harvard or Stanford. You know, we have, you know, we're a no-loan school, so you can decide to come, and there's no loans in your packages; you graduate without debt.

You know, the average for students who are like on pal essentially everything is covered if your family makes less than sixty thousand dollars; it's free to go to Chicago, and some of my peers have similar programs like that. So I would say to you, don’t let your current situation—so I was a first-gen low-income student from Hammond, Indiana, and I went off to Yale, and that was because you make the most of what you're given, and quite honestly, that stands out.

What you do with the resources you have is what will make an impact in your application. I doubly want to, triple want to underline what you just said because I think we probably had very similar childhoods. You know, growing up, I—you know, MIT was always the school that I—I didn’t even know much about, but somehow I wanted to go there. But I used to look at the MSRP tuition, and it's like my mother made 16,000 a year. She was a cashier at a convenience store; I was on free lunch. I was like, I'm not going to be able to go there.

And it was my sister who told me about financial aid. And so to your point, if you're, you know, below sixty thousand—not even where my mom was—but if you're, if your family doesn't make a lot, you can—you can leave University Chicago without, it sounds like, no debt, which is better than the deal I had back in the 90s.

Oh, yeah! Financial aid has improved a lot since you and I were in college, I have to tell you. And how is the COVID crisis changing things? I mean, we're seeing record unemployment. There's going to be a lot more folks in that category, unfortunately. I'm guessing the endowments are down because of the stock market. Is that going to change financial aid?

What's been wonderful is that at the top schools, you know, there has been a constant reaffirmation. Certainly, there has been at the University of Chicago that our main priority, the financial aid and supporting our low-income students, remains. We are committed to that, and that is not changing, regardless of how things are going in the economy, and alumni and our board have stepped up.

There have been major campaigns, especially in the last year, giving to our Odyssey scholarships, which is the financial aid for our low-income students. Millions of dollars have actually been raised since March to assist our low-income students in the current students in transitioning back to their homes, setting them up with computers, Wi-Fi, you know, paying for their trips home. You know, that has been a major commitment, and I don't see the very, very top schools changing that.

Thankfully, the government is also now kicking in some additional funding for that through the CARES Act, and I would imagine there will be more of that if the crisis continues or worsens. But the bottom line is this is a fundamental piece of who a place like Chicago is and some of our other highly selective peers, which is we are here to bring the very best and brightest, regardless of socioeconomic background, regardless of cultural background, regardless of political views and academic views.

We want the best and brightest, and you only get that if you're willing to put your finances behind that commitment.

That's super valuable, and we're getting a ton of questions. Unfortunately, we're running out of time. Jim, I would love to have you on again. I mean, your energy is infectious, and I think there's clearly—people are engaged. Maybe just a good end question, you know, Pierce Schuman from YouTube says: "What is the most impressive thing that you can see on someone's application?" I'll just extend it: What advice do you have for someone applying to UChicago? They want to be noticed by Jim Nondorf. What advice, what should they do in their life, and what should they do on their application?

Ah, so the most important thing is don't ask what I think you should be doing. You should think about who you are and be true to yourself. The best applications are authentic, and really it's like this is who I am, and I like who I am, and you're going to like who I am, and I'm going to show it to you in your application.

Those are the applications you remember and that stand out—the ones that, you know, where a student is like, "Oh, I'll bet they'll want to hear this," or "Oh, I should go do this activity because it'll look good on my application." That's not the way to go about this process. It is: Be who you are. Be proud of who you are. Put your best foot forward, and it does work out well.

Jim, thank you so much! And I love—every time I talk to you, I think you represent authenticity. You represent—you know, my advice to the students out there is be like Jim Nondorf. Don't be exactly like him, but he is himself. He's not trying to filter out. He has no talking points. I've talked to admissions officers that are just reading talking points out that, you know, that a committee has put together, and that's not you.

And I think the same thing is true for students: If you have a committee giving you talking points, probably not a good authentic application. So be yourself. And I got to say my own application in college—I didn't know what a good application looked like, so I drew a picture and I wrote this crazy dream that I had, and people thought I was crazy to submit that, but it got me in!

Yeah! Well, I can't say thank you enough for all you do. I mean, you're a great friend, and I love spending time with you, and really what you do and how you are changing lives through Khan Academy is amazing. So I hope you hear that every day because I think about it every day. So really, thank you!

No, Jim, and I got to thank you. The love is mutual. And you know, for those who don't know, you know, Jim and I were always brainstorming ways that Khan Academy can be even more helpful for folks to get in college applications. You know, Jim and I were just brainstorming, "Are there ways that students can take screenshots and show it to the college admissions of the world?"

It sounds like it could be really valuable, so we're excited about exploring stuff like that. All right, take care! Thanks so much!

Thanks, everyone! So thanks for attending today's daily live stream. I'll remind you it's Teacher Appreciation Week, so I want to make sure I do get that call out—a huge appreciation to all the teachers and I'd say even admissions officers in my life and other people's lives.

But I hope you all got a lot of it. I hope we can bring Jim on again because I think there's a lot of questions that we didn't get to, but I want everyone to stay safe, stay healthy, and we will see you tomorrow on the live stream!