The Genderbread Person | Gender Revolution

KATIE COURIC: Let's unpack this whole gender conversation. You use a device, or a character, called the Genderbread Man.

SAM KILLERMAN: Person.

KATIE COURIC: Oh, sorry. Oh. Sorry, sorry. The Genderbread Person.

SAM KILLERMAN: It's OK. I find it really helpful to think about gender in a few different distinct categories-- gender identity, how you define your gender and how you see yourself; gender expression, the different ways that we present or perform gender through our actions, our dress, and our demeanor; and biological sex or anatomical sex-- the physical characteristics that make up our body that, in many people's minds, equal gender, but don't.

KATIE COURIC: So gender expression is the way you present yourself to the world. So you could be talking about the way you dress, the way you comb your hair--

SAM KILLERMAN: Or don't.

KATIE COURIC: --or use product. So everything as it relates to the outside world.

SAM KILLERMAN: Yeah. That's a perfect way to think about it. So even just-- OK, so this is funny. The way that I'm sitting right now is a very feminine expression of sitting, because how we sit is gendered.

KATIE COURIC: Meanwhile, I'm kind of man-spreading.

SAM KILLERMAN: Yeah, you're man-spreading. You're not even give me enough room to properly man-spread over here. This is the man cross, the masculine way of crossing a leg. This is just uncomfortable for me. It feels like so much.

KATIE COURIC: It feels good to me.

SAM KILLERMAN: Yeah?

KATIE COURIC: Yeah, it's like yoga. OK, now let's do the girl.

SAM KILLERMAN: OK.

KATIE COURIC: So gender is different than sexual orientation.

SAM KILLERMAN: Yeah.

KATIE COURIC: But a lot of people get them confused.

SAM KILLERMAN: Yeah. Gender is who you go to bed as. Sexual orientation is who you go to bed with.

KATIE COURIC: Got it.

SAM KILLERMAN: So if you haven't heard that one, that one is important.

KATIE COURIC: So let's talk about penises and vaginas, shall we?

SAM KILLERMAN: We might as well. Let's just go right there.

SAM KILLERMAN: If you haven't already talked about penises and vaginas, we need to talk about penises and vaginas, because that's what everybody always thinks. Immediately, as soon as you say gender, anybody who's walking by right now who's hearing us say the word "gender," the first thing that's popping to their mind is external genitalia. They're thinking about penises and vaginas.

KATIE COURIC: So for the purpose of our discussion, the bottom line is, your external genitalia does not dictate your gender.

SAM KILLERMAN: Yeah.

KATIE COURIC (VOICEOVER): Wait a second. Can you rewind that?

KATIE COURIC: The bottom line is, your external genitalia does not dictate your gender.

SAM KILLERMAN: Yeah. I couldn't have said it better.