Reagan, Star Wars, Trump, & Power | Dennis Quaid | EP 450

Who was the last movie star? Used to be back then, movie stars, true movie stars wouldn't do a talk show on TV. You would avoid TV like the plague. Jack Nicholson, you would never see him on a talk show. He'd do one interview. That's part of that protection of exclusivity. There was a mystery to him.

Yeah, yeah. So that when you went to the theater, what makes a movie star is you don't know too much really about their life, so you project your own life onto them.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. That's what makes a movie star.

Hello everybody, I have the privilege today of speaking with actor Dennis Quaid. He flew into Scottsdale to do the show in person. Um, I saw a screening of his new film coming out in August, end of August, Reagan, last year and thought it was a classic American production. Very much enjoyed it.

It speaks of a very significant time in the history of the world, really the defeat of the Communist Empire, which is something remarkable and extremely relevant to today again when the same sorts of ideas are making their reemergence.

So what did we talk about? What are we going to talk about? About well, Dennis's career, the challenge of playing Reagan, the purpose of drama, what would you say it's calling to us? To see the world through the eyes of other people so that we can expand the way that we look at things and we can expand what we can understand. We talk about Hollywood, we talk about the future of the music industry, we talk about political attitudes and how they affect the entertainment world. Join us for all that.

So I think it was about a year ago that I was in LA and Mark Joseph showed me an early cut of Reagan.

Yeah, changed from then?

Well, I liked it. I'll tell you why I liked it. I liked the fact that the film concentrated on Reagan's activity as an anti-communist.

Yeah, you bet.

I thought that was wise.

All of his life.

Yeah, right, right. All of his life. And so I thought that was extremely interesting and it was a wise choice to concentrate on that specifically because that's the... right, what would you say, that's the central story with him as far as pertains to the world. That is what he... you know, almost single-handedly, really, because if we had another president in there, it would have been business as usual.

He defeated communism.

Yeah, the Cold War. He defeated it in its last iteration. It's making a lovely comeback at the moment.

Well, we didn't... he didn't help them.

No, he certainly didn't.

No, no. I agree, you know?

Yeah. And I thought the film did a very good job of concentrating on what truly was central about his presidency. And I think that is what was central and it was daring. And as you said, he had committed his whole life to it, and so that was interesting.

I also thought the movie was interesting from a narrative perspective because it kind of hearkened back. It was a classic Hollywood movie. Like it hearkened back to, for me, the kinds of movies that were made in the 1950s and the 1960s. Like it's unabashedly pro-American, but not in a way that hits you over the head. But it's also... it doesn't have that kind of cynical bitterness that's characteristic of much of the productions of popular culture, really, since the 1970s. And so that was nice to see.

And it was pleasant to be carried away by a movie that was... it wasn't like an Oliver movie that Oliver would do like about Nixon.

Right, yeah, right, right, right, right.

So how did you get involved in that project, and why were you interested in it?

I took a meeting. I think this is like 2017. I heard these people, they wanted to play Reagan, and I was just like sure, right? Because I didn't think I looked like Reagan. The only thing we had in common was that we were actors, and so I went and had a meeting with Mark.

And so it was a process, you know, because he was my favorite president. I will say that.

Yeah. And I lived through those times and knew what they were. He was the first president... I did vote for Jimmy Carter in '76. Regretted it. But in 1980, I voted for Ronald Reagan. My dad was a huge Reagan fan, and I voted for him and went home. My roommate at that time, from Texas, he said, "Who'd you vote for?" And I said, "Ronald Reagan." He said, "You are kicked out of the hippies."

Yeah, definitely.

That was like, yeah, for sure, man. You're not in the hippie club anymore.

So how old were you when you voted for Reagan?

I was 26.

26. Okay, so you were old enough to have some sense, but you could have easily still been a hippie.

So I wouldn't have voted for Reagan. When I was back then, I would've still been too entranced by the blandishments of the left.

So why was it that at that time?

Yeah, yeah. Well, like I said, I voted for Jimmy Carter. About that and then, which reminds me very much, those times remind me very much of what's going on today. There was this malaise that Carter had, his "malaise" speech. You know, he... the country had lost confidence in itself.

You about who we are. We kind of accepted that we were a nation in decline, you know? It was after Watergate, it was after Vietnam, the oil crisis, the oil crisis.

And, yeah, the hostages.

Jimmy Carter was like... we tried to be nice with the Soviets during that time, as you know, as far as peace. Jimmy Carter did a great job with in the Middle East with Egypt and Israel, but he... when it came to the Soviets, it was like we gave away the B-1 bomber for nothing in return.

We kept it for in return just to show our goodwill, I guess. In the way that realpolitik works in the world, they just were... they were doing the biggest military buildup and were making great strides into Central America and the like.

And Reagan, who had always been, you know, this kind of cold warrior and great communicator, came along and told people to like, pick yourself up, you know, there's a brighter day ahead. And it was the perfect time for him, right?

He also had a very stark message, which was very forthright, which was unapologetically that the Soviets were an evil empire.

Yeah, which they certainly were.

And so he put his finger on that perfectly. And so, yeah, that was all by design. He didn't talk to the Soviets for the first six years of his presidency because they kept dying on him.

Right, right, that's right.

They were putting forward like one 90-year-old after another, right? There was a sequence of them that lasted about six months in office, right?

But until his presidency, it had been appeasement with the Soviets. I think Kennedy did a really great job of it. Nixon was actually, no matter what you think of him personally, he was probably had the most knowledgeable world affairs presidency we've ever had.

But Carter, he tried to be a nice guy. He was an agreeable person, the same way he personally got together Sadat and Begin. Yeah, which he did a great job of.

But, you know, the thing is being empathic and warm and compassionate, that works real well with people who are honest, decent...

Yeah, right.

...and at the local.

That's exactly right.

That's right. That's a within-family ethic, right? With the real thugs, it's not the right approach. They think you're a sheep.

These players on the world scene, they're all... they're badasses, and that's one of the attractions that I had for Reagan. At least, you know, he's a badass. But he's my badass, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

And a principled person. A principled person, right? Which was a remarkable thing also to pull off, I would say, in Hollywood because I'm sure that he was subject to the same temptations that people are generally subject to in Hollywood.

Yes.

And I'm sure he gave in to quite a few of those temptations.

You know, he was a human being, but you know, he always picked himself up. He was... you know, his movie career... I think he was disappointed in his film career. He was a B-movie actor, and, you know, the films were never quite up to what they should be.

You know, it's kind of like he could have been John Wayne, but John... there was already John Wayne.

Yeah, right.

The niche was already... that was there. And, you know, that he was married to Jane Wyman, whose career went like this, and his just kind of stayed.

Yeah, stayed there. And he became vice president and then president of the Screen Actors Guild during that time, you know, because his career was fading, really.

And it's there that his real fight against communism started, you know, even though it was kind of rumored. You know, you got to be crazy, but they really, after the Soviet Union fell, come to find... you go to the archives, come to find out they really were in our unions, especially in Hollywood.

And, yeah, well, it's... he had... Reagan actually had physical scars on his back from fights. He got seriously beat up in a brawl at the union hall, in fact, from that.

And he had scars on his back, and so he didn't like... he didn't like communism.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, it's easy for us.

Well, I think still we're blind to the threat. I mean, I see in all of this university uprising that's occurring now and all of these bad actors who are protesting constantly in inner cities and setting up encampments and building these like independent cities, there's a stream of thought underneath that that's... well, it's very much akin to the Marxist stream.

Although you get into the society, into the unions or whatever it is, you start creating mayhem and chaos. You put one at this corner, this corner, that corner, and then you just start creating this mayhem.

And from that, you start confusing people, and they feel like they can't do anything about it, and it starts to grow on its own.

Yeah. And Reagan didn't want to expel communists or even the Communist Party, you know.

He's principled in that way because he felt like democracy can handle it. In fact, that's what he testified at, you know, at Congress during that time during the time of the Red Scare and all that.

I guess that's what we're trying to figure out right now too, whether democracy can handle it.

Democracy can handle it. It really... what it takes is for people to be informed, be aware, and to, you know... it's slow. It's slow to move, but people got to get involved.

Yeah, yeah.

And I do feel that pendulum happening in this country now, that people are waking up. You feel... say, “I've had enough,” because it affects them in their house, in their neighborhoods.

You know, just the structure of... and the substructure of society, you know, kind of breaking down, you know, little by little. And where you don't feel safe anymore... this is not the way I remember it.

So how did you figure that out in your early... in your mid-20s? I mean, I would suspect that the milieu you were in was pretty radical, radically progressive, radically liberal.

Like, why? How was it that you came to be oriented in that more conservative direction or particularly in the anti-communist direction?

I'm an independent. I've never been a Republican. I've never been a Republican or the Democratic Party. And I've voted both ways in my life, according to what I thought the country needed at that time.

You know, Republicans and Democrats, as you know, they need each other.

Yes.

Yeah, the Republicans need the Democrats because of this social thing that's out there to kind of lead the way progressively, you know, we move along as a society.

And the Democrats need the Republicans to kind of keep a little governor on that to make sure that we grow the right way and that, you know, that we don't leave behind principles and things that are at the bedrock of who we are.

So it's been both ways. So let's go back to Reagan per se. So you had a meeting, you said in 2017, and you weren't sure that that was a part that was right for you.

I thought... I thought when I watched the movie that you embodied Reagan remarkably well.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

But at the time, yeah, to tell you the truth, what really is like this fear went up my spine.

Oh, okay.

Because here he's like one of the most recognizable figures in the world, right? It's a big part to screw up.

And, you know, that... so I was really hesitant about it. And, you know, I also wanted to make sure it was done right. And you know what? It was.

And so they arranged for me to go up to the library, which I went to. And from there we went to... I met his son Michael as well.

And I went to the ranch. And it was when I went up to the ranch, you know, the... what was the Western White House back then above Santa Barbara?

And went up five miles to the top of the mountain. Five miles of the worst road in California.

Can't believe the Queen of England actually tried to go up. She was a tough cookie, that woman.

And you get to the top, and it opens up. And I realized that Reagan was not a rich man because this place is like... it's nothing special.

And how special it is. I mean, the house itself was maybe 1,200 square feet, you know? They had a king-size bed. Everything was left exactly as they left it, and it's not a place that you can tour.

It's, you know, it's a private home. And they had a king-size bed, but it was two single beds that were zip-tied together.

You know, all of the refrigerator, the stove was GE because he worked for GE. You know, I'm sure he got a deal on that.

You could tell that he had done all the work there himself, just like the legend had said. But there was a humbleness to it. At the same time, though, he was not a rich man.

He made a lot of people rich, and but he was really who he said he was. And that was the thing that really kind of convinced me at the time.

I started thinking, well, you know, we're both actors. We both have a sunny disposition, kind of optimistic about the world. And there's something about him, though, that...

Yeah, that sunny disposition. Because you're not a kind of wide-eyed deer-in-the-headlights sort of guy, you know?

It's very interesting to see that sunny disposition combined with something more, like... what would you say? Traditional masculinity.

And that's likely what Reagan managed too, right? Because he was... he had enough backbone, obviously, to stand up to the communists in the unions.

Yeah, yeah, right, exactly. And he meant that.

Yeah, and so, yeah, but yeah, those things. And then there was also, in getting into him, because as an actor, what really fascinates me about acting, even more and more so, is what makes people tick and who are they behind what you think you know.

That's what, you know, the motivations go back way back. There was something in Reagan that was unknowable.

I come to find out and even those that were close to him would say that. I don't even know if Reagan was aware of it, but there was something... the great communicator, there was a very private place in there that you could not breach.

I'm sure Nancy knew what that was, but he was a very, very private person underneath it all.

Yeah, well, I wonder, you know, because of the remarkable role he played, there's something singular about that, right?

That, what would you say, integrity and vision that enabled him to see the true nature of the communist threat early, to fight that locally, and to learn how to do it, and then to take that battle onto the international stage, right? To make that the focal point of his presidency.

Yeah, even when it was really not the issue.

Even like most people were over here about that.

He was and that's what makes a great president is when they can... they can point out because they have all the info and they can say it's here that we need to go and convince people that you have what it is to go in the right direction, remind them of the principles and not just the issue of the day, right?

Well, that's something... to get folks...

Right, exactly.

Well, that's something like a prophetic spirit, right?

That ability to see the current situation clearly and to see into the future and to put your finger exactly in the right spot.

And it isn't the case, generally speaking, that American presidencies are founded on, say, a foreign policy vision, right?

That's... foreign policy is important, obviously, but it's usually not central. And it's much easier for a president to default to some fast-payoff local issue and to do that continually rather than to fight the battle he fought, which he really fought for decades, right? Literally for decades.

First to say no to the Soviets, but his take was so brilliant and it was just disguised.

And because his idea, and it wasn't originally his idea, it was... you know, was it was from a lot of reading, research, and just time spent.

He thought the answer was to bankrupt the Soviets, right? Their economy is minuscule even today compared to what ours is.

They had done so much military spending and they were really, you know, things were so bad over there for the Soviet people.

You know, lines just to get food and this and that. At that three hours, he comes up with Star Wars, which didn't really exist. He got the idea from the movie, you know, about lasers that are going to shoot down missiles in space.

You know, it didn't exist. And Russians knew it didn't exist, at least 90%. They knew it didn't exist.

But it was that 10% that Reagan made them think about it. He didn't back off of it at all. Yeah, and so, but it... that, and that's what... that's a weird blend of fiction.

And that really tore them up, you know?

And so, they were on this military spending, and finally, they just, you know, it just toppled. That's really what brought the Soviet Union down.

Yeah, well, that's a remarkable climax to a life spent that, you know, that originated in local fighting with the communists in the unions in Hollywood.

Yeah, yeah.

So how did you prepare to...? Like how much work did you do, biographical work and so forth?

I don't know exactly how you would prepare. A lot of it, I'd lived through the... I'd lived through the times that had a lot to do, and I was a history buff to begin with.

So, like, you know, I remember the stuff. But I watched YouTube with... really great because you have all of those... you have everything you can go back and see.

And, you know, what do you get to? I work outside in a lot, so I work on the physical... how's a person walk, talk? And then, from that, it goes inside, and I realize why that is.

For instance, like Reagan had like a crooked smile.

Yeah, right?

It's like, yeah, oh, kind of "Eh!" like that. And there was... and after you do that a while, you realize, well, why is that?

And it's because of that... that's why you looked like him in the movie.

That's so cool.

There's got to be... there's some muscles that are deadened in his face from what, I don't know.

But that's... you know, that leads you to the inside of a person of where they kind of... the way he walked, the way he, uh, the way a person grooms themselves, the way they, you know, the image they put out.

And then, there's the... but really, when you get down to... that's the outside, and you have all the news stories and stuff.

But I talked to a lot of people who knew him personally.

Yeah, and I think that's really where it formed.

I didn't want to do an impersonation.

That's the thing that scared me with anything of, you know, doing an impersonation.

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Impersonation is an act, you know? It's like something you'd see on Saturday Night Live.

Getting down to who the real person is, quite another thing, a personal side, it really humanizes them.

Yeah, it makes them singular, and I like to... I want to get a part of a real person, of which I've played many.

I'd like to tell their story from their point of view.

Yeah.

You know, not from the outside, but what we thought of them, and not for me to really...

I try not to comment too much. I try to tell it from their point of view.

What is it like?

The question is, what if I, me, were this person in this situation, right?

Well, that's also what you're transmitting to the audience, right? That opportunity.

So what part of the reason that we go to see movies is because by watching the people on screen and by noting their characterization, we can adopt their aim.

And as soon as we adopt our, like, our emotions orient themselves around the aim.

And so if you can embody a character...

Yeah, exactly.

If you can characterize a person's aims, then you can invite the audience to adopt their perspective, right?

And that means they can live being Reagan, for example, in the course of the movie.

That's why we go to the movies.

Absolutely.

And so, wait.

Okay, so how long did you play Reagan and what was the effect of that on you?

Like, I'm curious when you embody these characters so deeply... it has to... it... because you're really occupying a different perspective, it has to change you, I would presume.

You know, I find myself like never really asking that question.

It's something to me, it's about learning about... it's about learning about myself.

Yeah.

I don't know how exactly how to sometimes articulate that, but... and I leave... I have learned to just leave the character at the end of the day, at the end of the take, in fact.

Just like, go do something else, right?

Right.

Because I've already... it's kind of like osmosis. I've already done all the work, and now just let the subconscious work.

Right, right.

So you can leave it.

See, this is one of the things that you learn as a therapist is to... because you're listening to people and you're trying to adopt their perspective.

But if you take that home with you, then you, you can't... over time, they have happened to me.

You know, I learned that when I played Jerry Lee Lewis, because...

Oh, yeah?

Well, tell me about that because I didn't believe that.

Yeah.

At the set, to tell you the truth, and that was Great Balls of Fire.

Yeah, it was Great Balls of Fire.

And so, you know, I wound up... at the end about six months after it came out, or maybe a year, yeah, I was in rehab.

Oh, cocaine school.

I see, I see.

And what... and there was a manner in which that was directly attributable to playing that character.

Yeah, you know, it made you manic, like what?

No, well, I was kind of already kind of, you know, I was already kind of along the path and that just... uh, Jerry Lee Lewis is like everything on steroids, right?

Man, that's how you played him too. I mean that's a very high-energy character.

Man, yeah, he was the guy, one of probably... yeah, what a great pianist and performer.

Yeah, he was one that I got to like hang around. He was on the set just about every day.

Oh, yeah?

In fact, when we shot at Memphis, and he was over my shoulder going, "You get it wrong, son," like after it takes, especially the music stuff.

But, you know, he was also very generous.

He was one of my piano teachers.

I didn't play piano before that, you know, just like chopsticks, and he was one of my teachers.

And, you know, getting that left hand really was the key to Jerry Lee Lewis because it's a very athletic move of being able to keep that up.

And I had a year to prepare for it, and I was on cocaine, so I spent 12 hours a day at the piano, you know, during that time.

And, but it's... I still play, you know, I continued afterwards.

And, well, that's a good habit you picked up.

Yeah, that was the good that came from it because it was... you know, that was a great gift from him.

And he was... he could be really so generous of spirit, and then he could be like a 14-year-old schoolyard bully at the same time.

You know, and Trump’s like that.

What do you think Trump’s like that?

Um, because, you know, I've talked to a lot of people who know him, and they talk about his generosity and his kindness in person, but he's got that 13-year-old schoolyard bully thing which also...

Well, that's the... that's the bully that's, you know, out there about what he believes, and I think he's a very principled down at the bottom of it.

Yeah.

But, I think he can be bullish.

Yeah.

Well, it isn't obvious, it was in the construction business, man, you got to be hard for all that stuff because, you know, it's like it's all Mafia, you got to watch it.

Yeah, that's for sure.

You take it.

So he built a building for a friend of mine in Chicago, like a multi-hundred million-dollar building.

He brought it in under budget and before schedule.

And that was in Chicago, and that's, you know, but he's a... he's very… he is very sweet at the same time.

Yeah.

He can be that...

You look at his kids, you know?

It's... um, he did a great job raising his kids.

You look at it, they are themselves very principled and have a great relationship with them.

Yeah.

Like that, right?

Right, right.

Yeah, I mean, in a way, I mean, you can't say the same thing about Reagan.

There was, you know, we tried not to be, like, like a love letter for this, you know, because it was human at the same time.

And he, you know, his... he didn't have the greatest relationship with his kids, you know?

Was he too preoccupied?

Well, his son... you know, his youngest son, Ron, takes every opportunity he can to talk against him and to really try to tear apart the legacy of his father and his mother.

Mhm.

And, Michael and he, that's who he had, uh, they have a good, decent relationship.

He and Michael do, and you know Patty, it's, uh, I can't really... I can't speak for any of them, really.

And I'm sure they all have their personal reasons for that.

But, you know, that he wasn't around much because working in the studio, he was working for GE, he was always on...

He comes from that generation that, you know, you grew up and you're pretty independent and on your own as a kid.

You know, like the way I grew up, my parents, it wasn't like the '90s that were your, you know, helicopter parents or really, you know, the people were living at home until they were 25 and stuff like that.

You were, you know, in a lot of cases, you know, you grew up on a farm, you were like 14, 15, like you need to go, you know, find your own life.

Well, you... and so it's... but anyway, that was the relationship.

I think it was... there was a distance there, I think, with his kids.

Yeah, well, it's hard for men to strike a balance between doing what they need to do in the world and being around enough for their family.

Now, I mean, I struggle with that all the time because I'm always traveling and stuff, and I try to be there as much for my kids, but, you know, parental guilt follows you no matter what.

And it's just always there, no matter how good a parent or present parent you might be.

So what do you make of his flaws?

Like how would you characterize them?

You spent a long time inhabiting his skin.

Like we talked about Reagan as someone who had a long-term vision, who was very committed to it, who was very good at communicating that in a way that was compelling and who, well, who was one of the main players in the devastation of the Soviet Union, right?

I would say him, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, and the Pope were the... oh, maybe you could throw Lech Wałęsa in there too as an additional contributor.

They're not the only people, obviously major players.

It was like that was in concert all with the Pope and with Lech Wałęsa. That was... it was all in concert with the United States.

They wouldn't have been doing what they do if you hadn't had the support from the United States that they had, you know?

And, um, but the flaws... everybody's... everybody's flawed, you know?

I think, like, early in his... like his movie career, I don't think he... I don't think he believed in himself so much when it came to that.

I think that's why he accepted more second-rate scripts.

Yeah.

I think he was just out to like, um, work for a living, you know?

And it takes... you gotta be willing to wait for things at the same time.

I mean, that must be my... like, I've done stuff for money, and I wish I had done that.

Luckily, I've been able to get through it.

Yeah.

And I also remember, like, in Iceland when, you know, the final meeting with... or the meeting with Gorbachev about we were going to like disarm nuclear weapons.

And Gorbachev had said, you know, "We'll dismantle all nuclear weapons. Just give up Star Wars."

Yeah.

And Reagan said no.

Yeah, right.

And Star Wars didn't even really exist. And, you know, he offered... he had offered to Gorbachev, "We'll share the technology with you so that we both have it," and said no to that.

And, but Reagan said no.

And I thought at that time of his presidency, I thought that... um, there's that old codger coming up, you know, that won't bend.

Yeah.

And that, you know, I didn't think it was finessed the right way.

I mean, I wasn't there, but you know, it went down.

And then also, I think he delegated a lot, which was kind of a strength.

And he was an adman, you know?

As president, he showed us what kind of president he was; the best candidate was also great at it.

But as far as being representing a president as an adman, you know, as an image, he was really good.

But he delegated a lot, and I think he wasn't maybe like an iron-fisted...

Iron Contra, he wasn't able to really keep his finger on what was going on.

Was delegated, and I don't think he had direct knowledge of it.

You know, once he said, “Okay, I like these guys.”

And then AIDS was another thing that I think he really... you can fault him with.

He made the wrong decision on AIDS.

He really portrayed it from the start as that a punishment from God on for the sin of being gay because it was really recognized as a gay disease or if you're a drug addict.

And, you know, I... he was... in that case, I think he was out of touch and missed the boat, you know, on that.

But, you know, it's... he's still a man of principles, but, you know, sometimes people have their faults. Nothing... there is no perfect...

Well, it's worse than that in some ways.

There's no perfect crime.

Well, also sometimes... I learned this from reading Nietzsche.

It was the first time I'd really thought about it that it isn't exactly obvious that someone's faults are clearly distinguishable from their virtues.

I mean, you look at Trump, for example, right?

He's got that bully aspect, and he's really good at it.

Like he's like the world's best 13-year-old bully.

He can nail you with a nickname, and he'll use what you said, and then you turn around and make a nickname of it.

He'll make fun of handicap people.

He, you know, it's like there's... somebody there...

There have been so many times where I just want to say, "Please be... why do you have to go there?"

Part of that, I can't help but think that part of that is also what makes him intimidating to people, like the dictator of North Korea.

Exactly.

You know, and it's so... like how do you see?

If he was agreeable like Jimmy Carter...

Jimmy Carter was a very nice man by all appearances and by all reputation, but he's not the sort of person that like a real psychopathic leader is going to take seriously.

Whereas Trump... like, and maybe this is also why he could deal with the mafia types in the construction industry.

It's like you have to have a touch of... it's like Harry Potter.

You have to have a touch of the devil inside you in order to understand what the devil's like.

Even our allies take care of their self-interest first, you know?

And if that doesn't happen to coincide with us, they're still going to look after themselves first.

And then you have Saddam Hussein, you know, the Ayatollah, you have, you know, Putin, you have the Chinese.

They are... these people, they're smart.

These are really smart people, and they know realpolitik.

And they are ruthless when it comes to their agendas, and they've been going on a lot longer than one president.

These guys are in there for life, and they've... you take a little Kim over there in North Korea, this is like the third generation since, you know, of the grandfather, the father, and the son.

And you know, they're moving on these things.

It's not just talk from them.

Yeah, you have to take them...

Yeah, well, and you need... it looks to me like you need someone with a certain degree of... far as it's like let's all be so understanding and everything.

They love that.

Yeah, yeah.

They love that stuff.

Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.

Well, this is the problem with a kind of a naive agreeableness is that trying to get along with people works really well unless you're dealing with a shark, in which case it doesn't work at all.

All you're doing is laying yourself open to be ripped to shreds.

Yeah, and this... the way it's always been.

And you're going to make things worse, yeah, by... if you're trying to avoid war, you're going to create one.

Yeah.

Because there's just going to be this red line that they, you know, they come closer and closer to if you keep them over there.

I say don’t cross that.

Yeah, yeah.

But you keep them... if you know, if you don't back up what you say, then they'll take advantage of it.

Yeah, well, I think it's a remarkably... well, I think Trump accomplished two things that were truly remarkable and I think very much underappreciated.

Isis?

Yes, okay.

We could throw Isis in there.

I was thinking... I was thinking no wars and the Abraham Accords.

Because the Abraham Accords... he should have got a... all this stuff that's happening right now would not be happening if the Abraham Accords hadn't been signed.

Yeah.

Because, I mean, that's in a way, that goes way beyond what Carter did, although what Carter did was incredible.

But it was like a real true continuation of that of Saudi Arabia because they were devoted to wiping Israel off the map up until this point.

Yeah, yeah.

So, let me ask you this a little bit.

What was the second thing?

Oh, no wars in Abraham Accords is what I was thinking was his fundamental achievements.

Like those are both major achievements of peace.

Yeah.

Which is not necess... it's certainly not what anybody would have predicted at the onset of Trump's presidency.

Everybody thought that Reagan was going to be a warer. He was called that throughout his presidency, no matter what.

You know, especially when he was like saying no to these Soviets, you know?

It's like, "Oh, don't they going to have a war." But that's really what kept us out of war.

Yeah, definitely.

Definitely, definitely.

Yeah, well, the '80s were... they were an intense time.

I mean, people were more terrified of nuclear war in the '80s than we're terrified now of climate change.

Good reason.

I mean, there were at least two incidents where it was like this close.

I know, I know.

I mean, they were seconds away from pushing the button.

It turned out to be a flock of geese or you take the Korean airliner, you know, that shot down.

Those are scary.

Absolutely, absolutely.

They absolutely are.

So what's it been like?

What's been the consequences of your political engagement?

Maybe your political stance in relationship to your career in Hollywood?

I am who I am, and yet, like I said, you know, I'm an independent.

I really truly am an independent, you know?

I voted for Obama once. I voted for Clinton once, you know?

I voted for Ross Perot once. I voted right, you know?

So it's... why would we were doing Reagan? You know, that was... we were doing it in 2020, and that was, you know, during COVID and stuff.

And they tried to cancel me twice.

Tell me about that.

Once was over... I was doing a podcast around that time, you know, and I forgot what outlet I was having an interview with.

It's right when COVID started happening, and Trump was, you know, in those meetings, you know, on television every day, you know, giving updates about what was happening.

Remember those times?

And, uh, they asked me, like, "What do you... How do you think Trump is handling, you know, the crisis?"

I said, "Well, you know, at least he's there every day. He's, you know, comes out and he's there every day. May not, you know, be making... saying the right things or this or that, but, you know, he's there every day. And that's reassuring, you know, to see your leaders out there that they're doing something about it."

And... and over that, you know, they were trying to like... they blew that up into... that was one time.

And then while we were doing the film, there was this false story that came out.

This was... was that I had taken like $400,000 from the CDC through Trump to do a commercial for the vaccine or something like that, which was totally false.

False narrative.

And how... you know, my son was calling me up about like, "Hey, man, you're going to get canceled over this."

I was like, "People..." You know, it was like... and, uh, so, you know, but I didn't get canceled.

But, well, it was untrue to begin with, so...

Do you have any idea why you didn't get canceled?

Like did you do something right?

Or do you... like people get canceled, so why didn't it happen to you?

When, because storms kind of... I don't know.

Hmm.

I don't know. It's a... it's a... I went on Instagram immediately and, you know, exposed it.

Yeah.

And, you know, but, right? So there was smoke but no fire, so that's helpful.

Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's... I like... I'm really on neither side, left and right.

I come from a time when you had conservative Democrats and liberal Republicans, and their agendas were not so far apart, really.

And now it's become this deep wide valley, and...

Well, it's... they're about 50/50, so it's hard to get anything done.

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Yeah, it's a weird thing, you know, from... I've spent a fair bit of time in Washington and a lot of time talking to Democrats and Republicans.

And, um, I've had more success talking to Republicans, frankly.

It's been easier for me to talk to them, and I don't think it's because I'm particularly... it's certainly not initially conservative in my orientation.

Although I think I've become more conservative in some ways.

The Democrats, their fundamental sin, as far as I can tell, is that they can't draw a boundary at all between the mainstream Democrats, which are the majority, and the minority of radicals who are controlling...

Absolutely.

Well, and these are exactly the same people, as far as I'm concerned, that Reagan was facing off against in the 1950s in Hollywood.

It's exactly the same thing.

And like I’ve asked 50 Democrats that I've talked to, "When does the left go too far?"

And I've never got a straight answer from any of them.

And that's the God's honest truth.

Right? It's like, well, obviously the left can go too far, right?

I mean, remember the Soviet Union? Remember Mao, China?

It's like they went too far.

When I asked RFK that, he said...

I don't want to have a divisive campaign, really brilliant man.

But you asked him what?

Well, I asked him when the left goes too far, and he said, "I don't want to run that kind of divisive campaign."

It's like, well, you know, the radicals are pulling your party to the left too, in a major way.

And maybe it's time to draw some boundaries.

Like for me, I'm not a fan at all of the equity move, the idea of equality of outcome.

That's like... that's a catastrophic idea.

It eliminates individual difference.

And why would you do that, especially if you're interested in diversity?

It's like, it can't be equality of outcome if you want people to be different.

Like those things don't go together, and you're going to compare people on absolutely every dimension, and you're going to insist on equality.

You're going to wind up handcuffing and, you know, basically coddling people where they can't get ahead, because, you know, life's tough for everybody.

Yeah, around here.

And I definitely, totally believe in a safety net for socially.

You know, that wasn't originally part of the Constitution, what it was... what the government is supposed to provide.

But you know, I definitely do believe in that.

But, uh, you... there's some government-sponsored programs... you go back, like, Social Security, these things that were meant to help people, you go back to the 19th century, and there was like nothing.

Yeah, you know, you had... like this is where all this stuff started, where you had the Vanderbilts, and the Morgans and the Rockefellers, and everything, and there was the Carnegie.

There was just no checks and balances on wealth.

They were... Carnegie rivaled the government himself.

I mean, if you put them all together, they had more cash than the government did.

And there was no checks and balances on that.

A lot of people wound up then with, you know, up here and then down here.

And so I think, you know, some of the things that came in to being, you know, social networks, and the Democrats can't take credit for all of them.

No, no.

You know, Teddy Roosevelt was very, you know, progressive; he was Republican.

And, um, Lincoln, of course, and, you know, things.

And, but, uh, at the same time you go... you can go too far.

And what is the point?

In the end, it seems to me when it goes too far, it's when it's not about what they're talking about, it's about power.

Yeah, yeah.

It's totally just about power.

I don't care if you...

Don't care what you're tearing down.

If you look at the political spectrum like a distribution between left and right, as you get farther out on the fringes, you get out of the political... I think entirely.

You get into the domain of people who are using the political for nothing but power, and they are very... they're exactly the psychopaths that we were talking about.

The Marxist agenda, you know, create chaos and move into that.

People used to, yeah.

And it's all about compassion, but actually what it's about is power.

Yeah, yeah.

Compassion disguised.

The Democratic... The Republicans have done it as well.

Get... no, I wasn't really very proud of the Republican Party back in the 90s.

In a sense, they played kind of the personal... they liked the way they were with Clinton.

And that it was... like they weren't working together like they could have been working together.

And it, it seemed like to me like a power move on the Republican Party back in the 1990s.

You know, you go into the 80s and into the 90s.

So I just did a... last year I did a seminar on Exodus, on the story of Moses.

Moses is the archetypal leader, and his fundamental temptation and flaw is power, right?

So it’s always the case that in the political realm, the temptation is to default to power and to corrupt enterprise.

Like with Clinton, you know, he did something which is not a crime, but because he lied about it, this then they go into like the Republicans, Pease, and they impeached him, you know, impeached him.

And that was, you know, a play for power.

You know, they failed ultimately.

And then, you know, times were so good.

And Clinton also was very good about, you know, two years into his presidency, he was like a duck.

He wasn't... he wasn't going to make it for the second election because times were bad.

And, yeah, that turned... he was so pragmatic and so smart that he basically absconded the Republican agenda, popped it down, and went State of the Union speech, said, "The era of welfare in this country is over."

You know, and... well, that's how he won the second election, and he was... he was a very pragmatic person.

Let me return to Hollywood if you don't mind.

It seemed to me that Hollywood took a walloping blow with COVID and then the strike.

And like one of the things I've noticed about myself is I used to go to movies all the time.

I... to theaters. I loved going to movies and I've gone to very few movies since COVID.

It's kind of like I don't know if I got out of the habit.

It's something like that.

Partly I used to know where to get reliable reviews for upcoming movies.

Like I was in the stream, I knew what was coming out of Hollywood.

I made plans to go see the movies, right?

That all disappeared.

And now I don't know how to get back to that, but I think...

And you're wondering if it's because of my age?

Must be.

Yeah.

Well, that could be too, although, see, I don't know.

Or is it just that way?

Well, yeah, I...

Well, I also don't know that.

And, of course, the media landscape is fragmented too, and so it's hard to figure out what sources you can rely on, the way they advertise movies is nowhere near what it used to be.

Used to be just like an ad in the newspaper.

Yeah.

And that was enough.

Yeah.

And then it became like TV, and audiences could smell a movie.

Yeah, right.

It was like so surprising.

It was just like... I remember for me personally, Breaking Away when that came out, it was... there was no advertising or anything like that, and we were driving to the theater, you know, to go... to go for the... you like the opening of it.

You know, on that Friday, yeah, and there's a line around the block.

Like, well, people are in the movie.

It's... well, that's the thing is that these things are very fragile, you know?

Is that we never know what makes a whole enterprise work.

And if people are movie fans, they're in the movie culture, they track it.

And if you break that, it's like that's gone.

Yeah.

Well, okay, so you... that's gone.

You don't see Roger Ebert on television anymore.

There was a whole culture that went with it that everybody watched when the movies were coming up and, like, you know, laying them out there, what they're about and all that.

And, you know, and you knew months in advance, really.

You know, great debates on what they were about and...

So how do you view the current reality and the potential future of the film industry?

Are there still stars?

That's the thing. Who was the last movie star?

Well, from what I've been able to understand, the only star truly standing today, or Cruz, that's going too far back.

Leonardo... Leo?

I mean last movie stars are still out there.

They do occur, yeah, they're out there.

But they also... my sense, too, is that, and I don't really know what to make of this, that they are the last of a dying breed.

Well, you know, the new is like... it's gone from... it's gone to social media.

Yeah, that's where the new movie stars are.

I mean, Justin Bieber, the first star to be created on YouTube.

Yeah, you know, not the... nowhere near the traditional way.

Yeah, of doing it.

And that actors now are the same way.

They have their Instagram page, they, you know, self-advertising.

But it used to be back then, movie stars, like in the, you know, growing up and really until the '80s, '90s, true movie stars, you wouldn't do a talk show on TV.

You would avoid TV like the plague.

Jack Nicholson, you would never see him on a talk show.

He'd do one interview in a prestigious magazine, whether it be Time, Playboy, right?

Whatever it was.

Right?

That's part of that protection of exclusivity.

And you would... you know, some guy would spend a couple of days with him or something, but you really wouldn't... there was a mystery to him.

Yeah, yeah.

So that when you went to the theater, Lally, what makes a movie star, as you go to the theater, they are a mystery.

You don't know too much really about their life, so you imprint your own life on them.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. That's what happens.

Yeah, you know, you see them for something inside you.

Yeah, and that's what makes a movie star.

Well, you actually don't want to know much about the personal life of an actor, and now it's like, well, it got to be that you just do everything about everybody.

Yeah.

And that brings them down to earth, and that's not good if you're a star.

Well, it doesn't create mystery.

Yeah, right.

Put it that way.

I wonder, too, how much of it is the fact that like when you and I grew up, being on television was like that was a remarkable and unlikely occurrence to be personally on television.

Even to know someone who was on television, the bandwidth was so narrow.

And then the movies were above that.

It was easier to be on TV than on the movies, but now everyone is on TV all the time.

Yeah, right.

And so that... that's another borderline between the public and the actor that's disappeared.

It's like everybody is videoed from the time they're young; there's no going back and... this way the world has...

And, you know, good things come out of it.

Good things. What do you see that's good coming out of it?

Well, for one thing, there's this... there's really a broad communication in the Z guys.

People have taken over their own stories.

Yeah.

And, like, you could be like me and choose not to participate very much, you know?

I mean, I have an Instagram page, I have a Facebook page, and I kind of... but I, you know, I didn't grow up with it, so it seems like a real chore to me.

Yeah.

And, right, it's not your culture.

Yeah, I like face-to-face communication.

And, and I like this... this, you know, this is great because it's... it's, uh, it's a real... I feel like I'm... this, that is one good thing about today as opposed to then is that you could do an interview like with a magazine and, you know, somebody was about to do a job on you.

Absolutely.

Because they kind of feel like they build you up, you know?

You have this fall, and then you have the comeback, the thing.

But like with this, it's unfettered.

Yeah.

And I get to represent myself.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, you... YouTube's great for that, and podcasts are great for that, and they really reward unfettered communication.

Like the people I've talked to, anybody I've talked to on my YouTube channel, who politicize or is false, they get slaughtered.

Yeah, like if they say it comes out very quickly, find out who people are.

Yeah, you can't hide so much.

Yeah, well, that's... Joe Rogan told me.

He said, you know, you can tell if there's anything to anyone after about 20 minutes.

Yeah.

Because you can... well, people who are hollow, they're exhausted.

Especially in a podcast like Rogan's, which is three hours long.

It's like there better be some depth to you to get through that conversation in an interesting manner for three bloody hours.

They're kind of like... you know, let's see what happens like 30 years from now.

But, you know, some of this stuff is going to come back to haunt people, you know?

I mean, some of the things that I did and thought or whatever, you know, back in my teens and 20s, man, I'm so glad it's not on you, that's for sure.

Man, I feel exactly the same way.

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TRAM.com/Jordan or enter code Jordan at checkout. You know, I remember most of my adolescence and my adolescent friends as really a nonstop parade of stupid decisions.

They should be able to make those stupid decisions in private.

Right, that's for sure, man.

The last thing I would have wanted was video records of that, right?

For it to be distributed around the school, I can't imagine what that would be like.

Terrible.

Terrible, yeah, and you can't just move away from it because it's...

Well, that's right.

That's right.

Well, one of the wonderful things about human memory is that we forget.

Yeah, right?

The remembering, that's not a miracle.

Like things happened, and so now, you know, it's like, well, can you forget?

Can you put it behind you?

Well, not if it's permanently recorded.

Yeah, yeah.

No, that's just not good.

Tell me what you're working on now and what you have in the future.

Maybe what you're excited about on the film front.

Um, well, I've started a production company with my wife and a business partner to make films that I really believe in and that we all believe in, you know, as a company.

And, you know, kind of based on certain movies in my career.

Like, you know, like to me, like Breaking Away, The Right Stuff, The Rookie, The Parent Trap, you know, it's a brand basically that I want to do.

And part of that, I get with... I have a thing now, Diamond Back, which is a film I hopefully we're going to be shooting this year.

That very much like a movie from the '70s that I really believe in.

What's the plot of Diamond?

It's... it's... uh... you see like Thunderbolt and Lightfoot.

It's a really great, uh, S-pack and Pa movie.

It's like that I see, and it's modern at the same time.

It takes place in the 60s, true story, this kid who was in the Marines, you know, stationed in Quantico.

Gets out of the Marines. His wife died while he was in the Marines.

They wouldn't let him go home, you know, she tried to... cancer and he just... you know, he's young and he's just like...

It's sort of like, you know, Oswald.

You know, he got out. He was a Marine, he got out.

And, you know, uh, these guys, they get out of the military, and they just kind of like ramble around.

They're kind of... uh, they don't have a path.

He wanted to rob a bank, really smart kid.

Wound up robbing a bank, robbed two banks in the same day, same town.

Well, for a penny, for a pound.

Went to, you know, and when he was being sentenced, he got caught.

It was like in the desert. It was one of these chases through the desert, which is like a modern Western.

Just so fantastic.

And, um, he told the judge when he was sentenced that just give me 20 years because it doesn't matter because I'm going to be getting out.

And then he did.

Then he got caught again.

Then he broke out again, and he eventually got... and there was this one cop that was chasing him and, uh, who became like a father-son thing.

And, uh, he got involved with this... with this case.

They wound up on like the third time, um, they shot each other in the desert, and, uh...

Right, so you got a '60s adventure.

You got a Western thing going on.

It's the anti-hero. It's an anti-hero, you know, the rebel hero turned anti-hero role.

That is very reminiscent of the movie movies of the '70s.

Are you good at evaluating scripts?

Yeah, I've read enough of them. I know by page... page 30 will really tell you.

I mean, I might be 15, I'll go, "Where is this?"

But page 30, if it hadn't happened yet, it's... it ain't going to happen.

And that's how I choose movies.

I read a script and I am an audience member with a first-time experience.

Can you imagine the story?

Yeah, I can.

Yeah, and it's funny how like every movie I've ever done, it's the script.

Yeah.

In that descriptive part, uh-huh, but, um, um, you can certainly elevate it from there.

But basically, it's the story. That's what really gets me is the story.

How many movies have you done?

I think we're getting up towards... I know it's at least 120, but it might be 150.

I don't... wow, wow, yeah.

And what percentage of those do you think are good?

Well, I wasn't exactly... or live up to what I thought they would be.

Yeah, that you’re particularly pleased about in retrospect?

Oh, I, yeah, probably, I'd say maybe 20%.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, maybe then there's, you know, there's those ones that are just really close to me.

I have different reasons for loving some of the movies that's different from an audience, because it was like... like I watch myself in a film, and I remember it has so much to do with what was going on in my life at the time.

Uh-huh, uh-huh.

You know what I mean?

So in the scientific literature, the best predictor of quality, so let's say the impact of a scientist's work on other scientists, that's a good measure of quality.

The best predictor is quantity, right?

So there's a real tight relationship.

It's very difficult to do anything of note without doing a lot of things, right?

So you're going to...

That's true. If you do a lot of them, taking chances, you know, some of them are more financial, um...

Were reason motivated, yeah.

But, uh, you know, try to do things.

I've never had any kind of strategy in my career except to try to do as many different types of things as possible.

Right.

I typecast myself as a character in a genre and whatever that broadens what you're able to do too.

Well, the thing that's my interest, it's like what makes people tick.

You know, what's this... something, you know the best things...
There’s something that really scares you, because fear is a really great motivator.

Like Reagan, for example, it's a really great motivator.

When does the movie come out?

When does it come out?

August 30th.

Yeah, yeah.

Are you excited about it?

I'm really excited about it.

Yeah, I... you know, it's going to be distributed widely.

We went through a process in the editing of it as well, yeah, that got to a place that I'm really happy with it.

Oh, good.

To tell you the truth.

Yeah, oh good, oh good.

I wonder how much it's changed since the screener I saw last year.

You have the script, you have the movie you shot, then you had the movie you edit.

Yeah, yeah.

No kidding.

That's where it really happens, that's for sure, man.

Yeah, yeah.

Something to be able to edit.

Well, that's where you really get the point of view.

Yeah.

And you point at the story.

Yeah, yeah.

All right, sir.

Is that it?

That's it for this side.

For everybody watching and listening, I'm going to continue this conversation behind the Daily Wire Plus platform for another half an hour, so you could join us there.

Is there anything else you want to?

There was one other thing that I'm working on, which is, uh, the name of the company, our company is Bonny Dale, by the way; that's my mother's maiden name or her middle name.

And, uh, I'm working on Happy Face right now, uh, Paramount that... it's... I'm playing a serial killer.

Oh, yeah?

Happy Face, one from Canada, by the way.

Oh, yeah?

Well, we have the best serial killers.

Yeah, you do.

Yeah, you really do.

He killed, uh, that combination of nice and evil, that's a particularly Canadian thing.

Yeah.

This is... it's really about... he killed like eight women over five years in the '90s, but yet he was a doting father.

And it's really about... his relationship... it's really about her relationship...

What's his name? Do you remember?

Her relationship with her dad.

Jesus.

I won't tell you who it is.

Happy... look up Happy Face Killer.

Oh, yeah?

Yeah, yeah.

So what's it like to inhabit a role like that?

It's so much fun.

You're a bad man.

All right, sir.

Keith Jerson, thank you very much.

So anyways, as I said, everyone, join us on The Daily Wire Plus side.

I think I'll walk through Mr. Quaid's autobiography and find out, you know, what set him on the role to be an actor.

I'd like to find out about also about why that's a family affair, because it is with the Quaids and quite remarkably and successfully.

And so there's an interesting story there.

So if you're inclined to join us on The Daily Wire Plus side, please feel free to do so.

Uh, thank you to the film crew here in Scottsdale for making this possible.

Thank you very much for flying in.

I'm very much looking forward to seeing how the Reagan film does.

Have you run into any distribution problems with it?

Is it going to be widely distrib?

No's resisting that.

No, no, it's... it's going to be widely... it's going to be... I think 3,000 or 3,500 theaters.

Oh, great, great, great.

Great, well, I wish you all the luck with that.

It's not like we shopped it around, you know, all these years.

It was just we kind of waited till we got the film where we wanted, then shopped it.

It seems with all the agitation on campus and all the politics that's in the air and the upcoming election in November that August might be a hot time to release it.

Well, I... one of the things was I didn't want it to come out in an election year, and yeah, definitely didn't.

And then, um, it's coming out now, an election year, and turns out it's perfect time for it too.

Yeah, yeah.

Seems like it might be... seems like it might be.

All right, say hello to Mr. Johnson for me.

We'll do.

All right, all right.

Thank you, everybody, for watching and listening.

And, uh, sayonara.

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