Joe Rogan Experience #762 - Robin Black

[Music]

Em live my man. I wish people who weren't watching on YouTube could just see the majesty that is the jacket that Robin Black is wearing right now. How would you describe that?

Uh, it's just a gin jacket, man. It's a colorful gin jacket. I like colorful stuff.

It's definitely... but it's not just colorful; it's like you're trying to blend in in a rave.

Well, it could be. It does have some camouflaging effect.

Yeah, if you were hunting in a rave, that's what you would wear.

Exactly. It's like a... I don't know what you'd be hunting.

Yeah, I guess ecstasy.

Uh, it's like a light blue with like purple.

Yeah, some sort of decorations. Camouflage is a weird thing. Like, when you see guys walking down the street with camouflage, and it's like... what if they really were camouflage? Like, you just see a head floating down the street.

Well, one day they're going to have that. Have you ever seen that Japanese invention they came up with? They have this, um, like a cloak that you can wear, and it essentially takes an image of what's behind you and projects it on the front.

So, invisibility?

Yeah, it's kind of crude right now, but what it is, is like the guy standing... like you could see it right here. Look at this.

That is ridiculous, isn't that nuts?

That is wild.

So, this guy... so what we're looking at is a guy holding a ball, and the ball does it. And so the ball somehow or another he's holding it in front of his face, and it doesn't show him. When it's in front of him, it shows what's behind him.

Crazy. I don't know how that one's working.

Yeah, I don't know. So here's the... this is the cloak. I've seen the cloak before, but you know, you can still see the cloak.

Well, that's the thing with that kind of technology: once it starts, then you're on your way. Like, then whether it's in one year or three years or twelve years, you're going to be invisible.

Yeah, we're in such a strange time because these emerging things are just starting to come out where people go, "Ooh! Oh! Whoa!" You know, like Magic Leap. Have you seen that Magic Leap technology?

I just read, tweeted a new version of it today that somebody sent me. It's like, "God damn it! It just keeps getting so better!"

Was it Magic Leap, or was it the Microsoft one? Which one's a... one’s a Google one and one’s a Microsoft?

Magic Leap is a Microsoft one.

Which one did I tweet today? I'm looking right now. Uh, but they've... um, Hollow Lens. Microsoft is Hollow Lens.

That's Microsoft. They've got these new goggles that you're going to be able to wear, and it's going to be like Minority Report. Like, the world is going to be your desktop. You're going to be able to spin things in the air, stop them, expand them, contract them.

I mean, you knew that was coming. Like, as soon as you see it on a movie, you know that's going to happen. The one thing right now is like we are in probably the fastest time of change ever.

Yeah, you know what I mean? It's like if you have an idea, that idea can be done. It's just a series of steps that have to do it.

Yeah, I mean, I think if you go back just a few... is this it right here, Jamie?

Yeah, just a picture. Just pictures of them using it.

Like, how crazy that's going to be. Man, you're going to be able to, like, see movies play out in your living room right in front of you. Video games. Uh, you know, if you were doing a demonstration for like a company or something like that and you want to show them a project you're working on or maybe some architecture you're trying to construct... insane.

Yeah, crazy times. And you know, the first thing people are going to start doing is, "How do we connect this to sex?"

Oh yeah, right away. That's where the money is.

That's what somebody's thinking of that right now.

Yeah, people are going to be able to [ __ ] right in your living room, right?

You're going to be able to... that's what the new porn's going to be!

The thing is, I can [ __ ] in my living room.

Yes, right! You can do it yourself. I could, yeah. Do it yourself world. We need to get back to that!

People get back to doing things actually, not just watching them.

Yeah, that is a weird thing. I mean, as much as you know, you make comedy and fighting and podcasts and stuff, it's still strange that people watch stuff all the time. Don't you find?

People would love to be entertained!

Yeah, I do! You know?

Yeah! Yeah, we like... we like to just have other people do the [ __ ] just sit back and watch.

Yeah, but do you find... this is something I always kind of wonder about you: how you can possibly consume so many interesting and unrelated topics and develop expertise in so many unrelated things while being a content maker? Like, you're making stuff that people consume. How can you possibly be mastering all these things at once?

I don't really have any... I'm not... I've mastered anything, you know? I'm pretty good at comedy, I throw some good kicks, I know Jiu-Jitsu pretty well. I'm not a master at any of those things.

Yeah, but I mean, you're bow hunting. You're, you know, there's so many different things.

You know, like, I literally do fighting stuff all day every day, and when I get a break, I hang out with my wife. Sometimes I'll take a day off, and that's it. I don't know about other stuff.

It fascinates me how you can possibly know about so many things that seem unconnected.

I assume that it's probably some... something wrong with my brain, you know? I assume that it's like an extreme form of ADD, but I need a bunch of different things going on in my mind, in my life. I just... if I don't have a bunch of different things going on, I don't feel stimulated enough.

I'm almost the opposite. It's like I literally specialize so deeply in something. Once I know something about it, I need to know way more about it, and when I know stuff about that, that opens up a ton of new questions. And that's why it's the same kind of area of stuff that I am obsessively researching and studying.

I do that too, but I just do it with a bunch of different things. That's what I mean. That's what I'm getting at.

I listen to archery podcasts where they're just talking about very specific ways to hold a bow, and fix your sight, and make sure you use your release properly. I'll listen to those [ __ ] things for hours and hours and hours obsessively.

Yeah, on top of practicing! I just get obsessed with things. But I used to worry about it when I was younger. I used to be like, "What the [ __ ] is wrong with me? I can't just concentrate on one thing. I always have all this other [ __ ] going on in my life."

But then I realized, like, well, that's just me! If I just enjoy, just do those things, then it doesn't concern me. Then I'm just appreciative that I have so many interests.

Did you ever read some piece... somebody wrote something about, "I hate Joe Rogan," or "Why I hate Joe Rogan," and then he went on this path and he discovered that he actually hated that you were your authentic self?

Have you ever read this?

Somebody wrote this thing, and as he learned more about what it was to be authentically him, he realized his hatred for this famous person was that he was looking at him and he hated that that guy was actually him.

Well it's easy to hate somebody that's like in the microscope all the time because you'll find all these flaws. Like if you follow someone every day, day in, day out, and expect perfection or enlightenment, you're going to be massively disappointed.

The kind of exposure that you get when you're doing a podcast, like when you're talking to someone for hours and hours and hours, you know, I've done 700... what is this? 762?

762.

The shortest one is an hour; most of them are three hours. That's 2,100... almost 2,500 hours, somewhere around that.

You know, who give or take? But it's... um, there... yeah! You're going to get annoyed at me; I get annoyed at me.

But his point wasn't that; it was that you are authentically Joe Rogan. Like, whatever it is you do. You ended up being... I mean, you're sitting here in a place that you built to do the thing that you want to do exactly the way you want to do it.

You're as authentically a human being as a person can be.

I guess so! You know, like when you're talking about accepting why you go and do things the way that you do them. That’s why you do because you're like, " [ __ ] being some other thing! I'm going to be this thing!"

Well, that's just... I think having this kind of a life is super lucky.

And if I didn't live it that way, I wouldn't be taking advantage of this huge opportunity that very few people get. Most people have to work.

Yeah! They have an actual [ __ ] job that they don't really necessarily like that much, and somehow or another I figured out a way... I mean, I worked when I was younger, for sure, and I figured out how to get to this spot by sort of moving away from things that I didn't want to do.

But now that I get to a point where everything I do, whether it's this... I was looking forward to this! I'm like, "I'm going to get to hang with my friend Robert! We're going to have some fun, talk some MMA, and life, and all kinds of [ __ ]!”

And that's the same thing I feel like when I go do standup. Same thing I feel like when I'm practicing archery or I'm working out. Those, these are things I enjoy doing!

So, and that's why I do what I do. And I really believe people can do that. I think you just have to start, first of all, by figuring out what it is you want to do.

Yeah! 'Cause if you don't know that, then you're just going to start wandering.

But the thing is, if you push somebody, they all know... most people really know what it is that they love.

I find that young people a lot of times don't. Like a lot of young folks when I talk to them and they just don't have a path.

These kids are like, "God, I just need to find something to do! I'm thinking about doing this!" Or maybe I'll join the military to get some guidance and some discipline or maybe I'll do that or they just... it's hard to tell because like what's cool for you? You know, Jamie might not like what... Jamie might like!

I might not like Jamie, who was trying to find Kanye West shoes.

All that I don't like that he probably thinks this jacket is stupid! [laughter]

He was up all night trying to get Kanye West shoes!

You know, it's true! Yeah! It's for everybody. Everybody's different, you know?

I think you got to figure out what it is you like doing because the path of going to do that is the whole point.

It's not... people often be like, "Well I want to get this kind of job," or "I want to buy this kind of house!", and it's not... it's not supposed to be that way, in my opinion.

You're supposed to start on a path, and on that path traveling along it, you're having adventures, you're stumbling onto new things.

And the challenge of it being really hard to achieve is part of what gets you up every day!

Yeah! And it's also fun! Like watching things improve; watching yourself get better at things, and analyzing things and figuring out what the holes, the flaws, where the errors are in your little system that you've created. Those moments are [ __ ] awesome! They're really fun.

Yeah! It's just, you know what really frustrates me? Really frustrates me when talking about these things, sometimes I'll get messages from people and they'll say, "Well, that's easy for you to say because, you know, you've got lucky and you found it." But like, you know, a lot of people can't do that! A lot of people have a response and they'll come up with all these reasons why they can't instead of saying, "Well, my situation is particularly difficult, but there's a workaround, and I'm going to find it."

Yeah, it might take me a year, it might take me a decade! I'm going to find it!

If wherever it is you're ending up is somewhere in the future, you don't know what that is!

And now it's like, "Well, I would like to do that thing I've got to do", but I have all these responsibilities.

Okay, our new job! Figure out how to take care of those responsibilities. That's step one!

Do you know Maslow's hierarchy of needs?

Yes!

That idea that first we have to like... you got to eat, you got to stay dry, and you got to drink water.

Once we've kind of accomplished that kind of stuff, that's out of the way. Then we start to go a little further.

How do we become safer? Once that happens, you climb up to the point that you're actually eating, sleeping, having sex; you have a place to live, you have a job, and now you're trying to learn more things.

And it's just a natural kind of transition to get smarter and move but it's easy to say that the hard part I think is starting going that way!

Yeah! You know, the hard part is going, "Okay this isn't working! Well, what if I got some exercise? Like maybe that would help?"

Like for some people, that path isn't what job do I got to start tomorrow? That path is like, "Well, I'm unhealthy!"

Or I don't think... my thought processes aren’t thing that lead me this way, so you got to start way low on that thing and start getting that [ __ ] together.

Eat good, get sleep and exercise! That's... everybody should have to do those things! Like our society should be shaped in a way that you have to do those things. Because if you aren't doing those things, you're right there, you're starting from a place where you're just not performing as well as you could.

It's so hard to tell people that, though. They don't want to hear it! They just love that food porn! They just love shoving donuts in their face!

Oh yeah! Pasta and just [ __ ] sugar... [ __ ]!

But there's a lot of things that are terrible for you that are great. Heroin's...

I've only been in Woodland Hills three times; this is the second time I've been on your show. The other time was the time I was on heroin for four days!

That's the only other time I was in... four days.

For four days in Woodland Hills? I was 20 years old.

Damn!

Yeah, it was weird shooting up.

Yeah, yeah, it was very strange! [ __ ] that's a commitment!

Yeah, it didn't start that way. Like literally, all things Mo... nobody grows up and says, "I'm going to do really stupid things." I was like 20 and I lived in Winnipeg, Manitoba, and I was really into music.

And I came down here for... I was a hairdresser at the time, and this jacket would work perfectly so... in your hair.

Yeah, my hair! Exactly!

So, I was down doing some like... I would do platform work where I would like demonstrate how to do stuff for other hairdressers and people.

And I went to, uh, uh... not the Viper Room, one of those clubs, and this pretty woman comes up to me and says, "Are you a musician?"

And I'm like, "Yeah!" But I'm kind of about to say, "But I live in Canada!" and that, you know, and she goes, "Well my husband's putting together a band and you got to meet him. His name's Andy McCoy!"

And Andy McCoy wouldn't mean much to a lot of people, but to somebody who was really into like Mötley Crüe and stuff like that, he was in a band called Hanoi Rocks that kind of started that movement.

I'm like, "Whoa [ __ ]! I'm going to be famous! Like, I'm going to be rich and famous!" Not knowing that although Metal Edge told me that this guy was a big deal, he was just a musician.

But to a 20-year-old from Winnipeg, it's like, "Oh my God, I’m going to be in a huge [ __ ] band!"

So I go and I meet him. We go to his house in Woodland Hills, and actually I've been here four times. There was that time that I flew home to Winnipeg and they flew me back down 'cause they were going to get me singing in their band.

I'm like 20 years old. This guy's like famous to me! Right?

So I get down there, and that [ __ ] is not all that organized. You know what I mean?

Something's not making a lot of sense, and then around day two I figured out, "Okay, it's because everyone's on heroin."

And it started, we had smoked some pot, which in Winnipeg and Manitoba we called that "dope."

You want to smoke some dope?

It's like, sure!

It was like... so he goes, "You do dope?"

I'm like, "Yeah, I just smoked it with you like 20 minutes ago!"

He goes, "No! Like..." and then before I knew it, he had injected me with heroin!

Like a conversation sort of happened! I was trying to be not super uncool, but like not saying yes! I want to do heroin!

And then four days went by. Like literally just shooting up for four days!

And then I just about missed my plane home. So I had a girl, and a home, and a job and all those kinds of things.

And I'm kind of looking at like the plane ticket, and I know it’s like, "Okay, if I get a cab in the next two hours I'll get the plane. I'll get home or whatever."

And he's like, "Well just... you know," and you're not even thinking. It's like you're barely even there.

And somewhere along the line, I was just like, "Don't worry about it! Just [ __ ] it! Don't have to go get on the plane!"

I probably got $100 to my name, and if I didn't get on that plane, I'd have no job, no girl, I'd be a heroin addict with no money in Woodland Hills with a guy who doesn't have his [ __ ] together.

I think in the years since, he's got his [ __ ] together. I haven't seen him since then, and I made myself go.

And I was sick for two or three days, and I realized like literally that second in time, if I don’t convince myself to get on that plane, my whole life is [ __ ] ruined.

Whoa!

Yeah, like I just so vividly remember talking... trying to talk myself into just [ __ ] it! Stay here! Don't worry about it!

And then I would think to myself, "Well what are you going to do when are you going to get home? Don't [ __ ] worry about it, man!"

And I just forced my... and I was literally convincing myself: "Don't bother! Don't worry! It's not a big deal!"

But it was obviously a big deal!

And I got home. I was sick for two days, and I've never taken an opiate or any kind of painkiller ever again.

So you were sick like hungover?

Yeah! A violent form of it!

Like did... was it withdrawals?

Probably, right? Probably! What do you have to talk to, you know? I, in the course of playing in music, I've met lots of people who have opiate problems, and they would say, "A man, four days, it's nothing."

But to a person who was a normal person, and then all of a sudden they were doing drugs for four days, it probably was, yeah, violent withdrawals.

It was very sick! And I knew that day, it's like, I'm just never going to take any kind of narcotic or painkiller like that ever again.

Wow! So that was the second last time I was in Woodland Hills!

Well, the idea that you could just become that person like that, you just meet the wrong person and "Hey man, you want to do some dope?"

Oh yeah!

And there's lots of those little moments in everybody's life.

You know? And big ones. That's a big one!

But you don't know where, when they are, or where they are, or how they start! You're just suddenly... you know what I mean?

Many of us, as we get older, we start to get a little smarter! You recognize big risks earlier on down the road as you get older. Life experience helps you with that [ __ ]!

But yeah, I was thinking that on the way here today! I was like, "Oh yeah, but I..." I mean, that's 25, 26 years ago.

So did you ever talk to that guy again?

We were in touch about maybe still putting this band together, and then he was clearly, you know, had addiction issues.

I followed him a little bit after he, um... he had a reality show. He's from Finland, and he's a pretty big rocker in Finland.

And he and his wife, who was there at the time, that was the woman that I met, they had a reality show, you know, kind of like what Ozzy did, but with them.

And yeah, so crazy!

Yeah, Finland!

Yeah, how many people are in Finland?

Probably about half as many as Canada would be, my guess. Which about 30 million, so... 15 or 20 million maybe?

And this guy's just a big rock star over there?

I think so! I mean, it's the whole music world is such a different life to me now!

Like I've been so deeply embedded in fighting for the last decade, like I don't know about much else!

Like he could be the president of Finland right now for all I know! I just don't consume a lot of other things!

You know what's shocking to me? I have a lot of friends now that are musicians that are doing really well and not making much money!

Yeah, it's [ __ ] eerie!

It's eerie when you find out that these guys who you think would be ballers are like kind of struggling!

Yeah, that business is crazy dead!

It's not just... but the touring is what I don't understand. It's like how come they're not making all this money from touring? But I guess it's like a comic has a much lower overhead.

Comics just... we don't need anything! Just turn the microphone on, we're good! They need support! They have all these other people that are there.

You know, they have people that carry their stuff, re-sound people, lights.

Yeah, they have other people in the band, obviously! So, um, when we went and saw you at C there, that was awesome too, by the way!

That was fun! The C theater at MGM doing that again next month!

Yeah, [ __ ] is the [ __ ] uh... with...

So something like that, do you have anybody else? Like is there is there a sound guy? Is it the house guy?

Like do you...

They have a house guy!

Yeah! They just have to turn the mic on!

That's amazing, man!

Yeah, well it's just so low maintenance, being a comedian. You just have to, you know, sell tickets and you get there and you say hi and you just go do your act!

Except for the 30 years of developing your act, building it and having, you know, the insight to understanding how people laugh and all that kind of stuff, yeah you're sort of developing your ability to make an act.

But the act itself is like... it lives for about two years and it dies. Then you have to let it go!

Wow!

And then you move on to the next two hours!

And in those two years, I'm going to pull this back to fighting because everything gets pulled back to fighting!

I've been trying to just go... you don't have to talk about fighting all the time! I've been telling myself that outside of work! Regularly, actively trying to find other things to know about or learn about!

But, uh, you build like structures around something, right?

So Johnny Hendricks goes to fight Stephen Thompson. His whole world has been built, like that act, for years. He built that thing, and structures were built around how to perform that act that way.

And then all of a sudden, it's just dated!

It's just not going to work in this setting!

You know?

Yeah, it's completely dated! When you're dealing with... there's two things that Wonderboy did in that fight, um... that you just didn't see up until he came around.

And, uh, one big one was the front leg attacks. His front leg sidekick and front leg roundhouse kick to the face. You see he hit Johnny with a front leg kick to the body. You can see it really shook Johnny!

And then immediately afterwards he goes high and hits him with a front leg roundhouse kick right in the chin.

And he's like, "What in the [ __ ]!" Like this guy can do some [ __ ] with his feet!

That I'm just not geared up for!

I'm not... it doesn't... he didn't have the timing for it!

Johnny was in a gym boxing with boxers!

Yeah, lots and lots of boxers!

His hands are great, he's got it together moving around. Long as gu stand in front of him, and it's like that literally what Stephen Thompson did!

And what you're the really exciting thing you’re seeing right now is this weird moment where it’s like you’re a great wrestler. So what I need to do, I got to go learn to wrestle!

You don't have to [ __ ] learn to wrestle! We're going to do that anyways! We got to learn to make it not about wrestling!

We got to make it...

So, I mean, MMA developed by finding the answer to the thing! And somewhere all of us, every coach, every one of us, uh, five years ago, seven years ago, we were like, "Well, that's it! It's boxing, wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, this cage work, this is how fighting is done!"

That's it! We're [ __ ] way wrong!

So when that... when we think that, we start building a structure, gym environment, curriculums, how we train, and that thing gets more ingrained and complicated.

And you go to the gym, you work these four or five things, and some guy over here is working other stuff, and our whole gym is like that, and all our training partners are like that, and we’re working the mixed martial arts curriculum, but some other guy isn't.

And when he develops that thing, we’re not prepared for it! We're just not prepared for it!

Yeah!

Yeah, sport karate, that sport karate blitz!

That's something that Thompson can do, but also he came from a kickboxing background, so he's got that sport karate ability to LEAP in, sort of like Raymond Daniels who fights in Glory.

He's got that leap-in attack ability that's very difficult to deal with if you don't have that kind of footwork.

And then on top of that, he can string together beautiful hand combinations!

So he'll slide in, blitz you with four or five beautiful hand combinations and then slide away!

And then kick you in the stomach as he's sliding away!

And you're like, "Jesus Christ!" Like you can see the bewildered look on Johnny's face in that fight.

Yeah!

And he's a brilliant fighter!

He was the champ champ! He's a tough guy!

But Johnny's got that style where he'll stand, like Johnny and Robbie, they stood in front of each other and you're just not going to find that with Wonderboy.

He's just not there!

That's what this guy's trying to... that's the game he's going to try to...

This guy... he's holding up a plastic cell!

Is it a plastic cell? Plastic cell?

Look, they sent us a Conor McGregor doll!

It's... yeah, he's all stumpy and like angry!

The same guys who sent the Biggie doll, they sent us a Conor McGregor, and Jam's got a Tupac over there!

There's a Bruce Lee for Joey Diaz!

That's cool!

But uh... that’s... he'll... the move!

But what he can do with his feet is not nearly at the level that Stephen Thompson is.

Stephen Thompson's doing some [ __ ] with his feet!

The way he's throwing kicks, they're deadly!

I mean, he's one of the best kickboxers that America’s really ever produced!

That's amazing! 57 and 0 as a kickboxer!

Yeah! And then if you... so then you go and train with Weidman, right?

And Weidman roughs you up!

And Weidman, his work ethic and the whole thing rubs off on you!

And you just start getting familiar with it! And it is!

Yeah, I can defend takedowns! But more importantly, we ain't [ __ ] wrestling.

We're not going to wrestle!

And it seems... him, Cruz... Cruz is a [ __ ] absolute genius!

All these guys, even Demetrius and Matt Hume, they play this game.

So we’re sitting here like, “Can we... we can't wrestle from here, right?”

So for you to get to me, you have to travel through space! As you move forward two feet, I move back two feet!

You move that way two feet, and you play this game where we keep the space forever!

And I just keep that space! As long as you want me, I’m making that space!

And when the space is there, either you're going to get so lulled into it that I can dart in!

And Wonderboy’s weapons are his kicks!

But some guys will do with their hands and dart in and hit you!

Or you start chasing me, you chase me! I intercept you and [ __ ] you up!

And it's just so logical! And you're looking at it now, and just the way that the karate guys had to go learn to wrestle... or did they?

They had to learn to not wrestle to make it not about wrestling as much as possible!

The Johnny Hendrick, the Matt Hughes style of fighter, they got to figure this out!

They have to figure it out!

Well, you know what happened was he learned how to get comfortable standing up where he didn't worry about being taken down all the time!

And then you got to see what he’s really capable of with his striking!

Because you look at his earlier fights, he was a little more tight because he was worried about being taken down.

So all that takedown defense... I mean, he always had the great footwork! But now he also has a solution if you do grab him!

So when guys grab him, he's not out of water! He knows what to do!

He can break free again!

And it is way harder to take someone down when they're not trying to wrestle with you!

If someone's trying to be aggressive and attack, you can counter and you can take advantage of openings that they leave!

But when someone is just being defensive... like if Jiu-Jitsu... if you roll with someone, it’s very hard to tap someone who's just being defensive!

They're not trying to attack!

It's when they open up and they go after you! That's when you can get them!

That's when they leave openings!

And it's the same... I think the same thing with wrestling!

These guys, like Mirko CroCop was a great example!

When he first started fighting in Pride, he took... you know, just like a year or so...

And all of a sudden, he had takedown defense figured out!

And everybody was [ __ ] because then you got to stand with this guy!

And he was one of the best examples of a high-level kickboxer that entered into MMA!

Because he was always a one-shot explosive striker!

Whereas a guy like Ernesto Hoost was a combination fighter!

A guy who threw beautiful, technically perfect combinations, but never really like... like blitzed in and exploded!

And it seems like the blitz is a big part of MMA fighting!

It's not... I mean, the technical striking for sure is important, but I think you gotta be able to make that mark quickly, especially with those little gloves!

Yeah!

And the footwork, if it gets me over, gets you over here, that I have to take one step to center back into you, then you blitz me there!

That's what Dominick’s doing for the last number of years!

And then he gets so good at that thing, you can't quite figure out how to even... like the Anthony Johnson is so good at staying in balance to hit you wherever you are!

He's in balance to hit you 'cause Henry Hoof looked at him and was like, "What's the key to this guy?"

Just put him in a place where he can always hit!

Like put him in a place where he can deliver with power!

He's really good at that! Small little steps, you know?

But Dominick could dance all around him!

Dominick Cruz could move it so that he has to step back to hit him!

That's when he’ll get in!

Then he gets so good at that one thing that he just starts camouflaging with other things!

Now you don't know when it's coming!

Now maybe you hesitate!

"Oh, when you hesitate, he has an option!"

When you chase, he has more options!

You think it's better to stay still, so you do! Then you get beat up!

So then you think, "I better get after them!"

And then when you do, you get intercepted!

And that whole thing must become so frustrating!

You know, so mentally frustrating!

And then you're like, "I got to take this guy down!"

And in some case, that’s what they’re waiting for you! You know, to hit you on the way in!

It's just that game is so... it feels like the big difference now!

If you can't do that... if I can't do that and you can...

Yeah, what the [ __ ] am I going to do? I have to fight panic!

That was Ali in his youth! You know, when Ali was young, before they took away his title and he was kicked out of boxing for three years, and then he came back, he was much more flat-footed.

But in the early days when you would watch Ali fight guys, he would be able to move away from them and then slide back in and hit them!

And they really didn't have a solution to that!

And when you don't have a solution to that, that means you're getting hit and you're not being able to hit the other guy!

And just think of that! You can ready yourself for that! You're prepared, you know it's a challenge.

But you've been working on answers!

Like I thought for sure Dwayne Ludwig with TJ, they would have worked on situational things!

And maybe they did! It's like, "When he's here, we're either going to option A or B! We know these are some of his choices!"

Big broad strokes answers!

And they worked sometimes!

I mean, we look back in that fight; I thought Dominic won!

But TJ had the moments where he had the biggest shots or the cleanest shots!

There was only half a dozen of them in 25 minutes, but you saw that was the answer!

But it must be incredibly frustrating to be in there!

You're mentally prepared for it!

You got the answers, and as the minutes are clicking away, you're like, "Oh [ __ ], it's true! Someone lied to me!"

That feeling must be the worst!

When you're there, you're like, "Oh [ __ ], they lied to me!"

What do you mean by they lied?

That there was this... I mean Anthony Johnson!

So Phil Davis is like... I'm a huge fan of Phil Davis!

I love Phil Davis!

Was fighting Anthony Johnson!

And he went for that first takedown!

And you go back and you look... the look on his face when he fails that takedown is like, "This is not what I was told it was going to be!"

And maybe somebody lied to me!

It sounds like a funny way to say it, right?

But this is not how it was supposed to go!

He... holy [ __ ]!

Anthony Johnson! Someone said he was going to be able to take him down!

I can't!

And that look on his face, like that changes everything!

The whole fight now, from this moment, that this big dude stopped my takedown, shook it off, and kind of looked at me!

Now the whole fight is nothing like I had laid it out.

Yeah, I think when you watch the TJ fight, like the big moments that TJ had, I think what Dwayne was trying to get him to do more was not load up!

And that he was really trying to knock Dominick out!

I mean that's really what he wanted to do!

I think maybe if he just concentrated more on the leg kicks...

I mean, he had that one leg where it turned out that Dominick had had like a serious injury with his foot, like plantar fasciitis that had torn!

Yeah!

Have you... what is it like?

Oh God! So I actually had it after a fight.

My last fight was my best performance ever, and it went great!

And that fight training going up to it, the guy was a very good striker compared to me.

And he thought I was going to take him down, that he assumed, we knew that he knew that was what I was going to do!

Only that wasn't what I was going to do!

I was going to put him against the cage and hold him there and beat him up until he got tired and I could find a way.

But we were not planning to take him down, we were planning to put him against the cage!

But all that leverage, like all that driving off the foot against the cage hurt my foot!

And then my wife and I went on vacation right after, and we walked non-stop the first day that we were there, just non-stop.

And the next day, the fasciitis happened, and it feels literally like... like you can't even put weight on your foot!

Like it's so inflamed and you don't know what it is!

Like did you damage it? Is it just hurt?

And it hurt for months and months and months and months after!

And just yoga actually helped it!

Really?

Yeah! Strengthening the foot and the ankle!

Yeah, yoga is one of the things that... one of the things that I found when I started getting in was how much my feet hurt!

Yeah, because I was like, "My feet are weak, I guess?"

Yeah, yeah, 'cause you're big and your feet and ankles are designed to do the stuff that you do to them!

Yeah!

And now you're asking them to do all this other stuff!

I was surprised because I felt like I do so much barefoot!

I lift weights barefoot!

I kick the bag barefoot! Everything's barefoot!

I was like, "This is not going to be hard to just stand on my feet and hold poses!"

But it's pretty hard for like the first couple months I would have like some serious foot pain in certain positions and then now they're stronger!

Yeah! Now it's much better!

But still, that's probably my weakest part is my balance!

Like balancing my foot!

There, I saw when you had Carlos and his movement guy on here, and that was one of the things they talked about!

It's one of the things Ido Portal talks about too!

Is that one of the biggest weaknesses in our whole chain for most of us is our feet and our ankles!

That's Nick Kahn's number one thing! When I said what's the number one thing that you like to work on with fighters, he's like, "Foot strength!"

It's like the number one thing that guys have that they need to improve!

Well mine just fully inflamed for a long time after that fight and just mistreatment, and they were already weak!

What did you do for that?

I literally... I was in Mexico, and I would have to sit against... lean on my wife to get to the bar to drink some tequila, so that it would hurt a little less.

So I could get to the pool where it didn't hurt as much!

'Cause you had water boying you!

So were you like taking painkillers or anti-inflammatories?

No! Painkillers since the last... no opiates!

But like Advil or anything?

Yeah, Advil!

I literally couldn't walk for three days!

Like I'm not joking, I would lean on her to get to the bar to have some tequila!

So what it... it is the fascia at the bottom of the foot that separates... is that what...

Yeah, separates or inflames!

Yeah, we got it! The plantar fascia!

Yeah!

And I guess it affects people in different ways; like if it's over, you know... if it shortens it gets hard, and it shortens that hurts your foot!

In other ways it's just a weird kind of spot!

We're walking on that all day, all the time, climbing and fighting and running and whatever things we do and that thing right there is on the bottom!

I mean you got to figure that's going to take some abuse in your life!

They also say a big issue is shoes!

The way the padding that we have on shoes, the extra... like the runner's padding and that you're really supposed to have like the most minimal amount of protection from the environment as possible!

Just a thin minimalist type of a shoe that that allows us to use our feet!

The thing we got it's just a big lump on it, you know?

So you don't get to use it!

But when... when you trained Taekwondo growing up, like martial arts for kids and teenagers and stuff, man!

It's just going to make everything better!

You know?

Well, definitely flexibility! I'm still really flexible at 48!

And it's... I mean, it's because I never stopped doing it! But it's also because I started doing it before my body grew up, right?

Yeah! You know?

But what they're saying now is that like Navy Seals that are learning, they're going through training and everything with those toe shoes!

Yeah!

They're trying to stop them from wearing those toe shoes 'cause so of the guys, their feet are not strong enough to run and do all these exercises and those things because they're used to wearing like your basic running shoe with a thick heel!

And if you ever... people are listening to this, I think there's a TED talk about it where they went over how someone had created one of those running shoes with the thick heel area, and what it had done is really essentially changed the way people run!

It changed their gait, and it made people run heel first, which is totally unnatural!

You're supposed to run ball of the foot first, and your foot's supposed to absorb the energy!

And when you do that, you know, your foot acts as sort of like a spring, and it slows you down, it decelerates you, and that's how you're supposed to run!

You push off that and you run with that!

If you do that, your foot will be very strong, and you could run long distances, and your foot will stay healthy!

But if you're used to using those running shoes with the big heel, you go heel down first, you don't have that strength in your foot, and you can get really [ __ ] injured if you try to do the same amount of miles and the same intense workout with like a toe or something like that 'cause your feet are just not designed for it yet, or, you know, conditioned for it rather!

The funny thing, like when you know they're telling them not to use these shoes because their feet aren't strong enough, but if they use the shoes their feet will become strong enough!

You know?

But they want them to go through some pretty [ __ ] grueling, rigorous training, you know, workouts!

Um, and we talked about I was hurt; I did yoga, it fixed it!

You did yoga, it hurt, now it's better! Like, you have to go through a certain amount of hurt!

You have to go through a certain amount of, you know, challenge to repair it!

It's... it strikes me so strange when you think about some things that we... that humans do!

Something as small or big as going, "Well, we're going to wear these shoes!" Changes everything!

Not only how we are, our future, the way... like these little things that we do as... as people, you never... you're never able to project the good and the bad outcomes of them in the future!

You just have to deal with them when they happen!

Yeah!

I'm a big fan... when it comes to like minimalist footwear, I'm a big fan of wearing like real... I work out with either barefoot or these... I have these New Balances, they're just like a slipper.

I have... they're black, but they're like this little thin thing.

Well, I wear the toe shoes, but god damn, people give you a hard time with those!

Yeah, me too!

So brutal!

I have those New Balance ones. I do still a lot of powerlifting. I love powerlifting!

I try to do yoga and martial arts and offset, but I love heavy lifting and deadlifts!

You can't use padding, you're going to lose force! You know, you have to use some type!

I use... uh, Nikes usually, or I'll use the New Balance ones, but not Nikes rather Converse Allstar!

Like these things, the Chucks, these are my favorite 'cause they're just flat!

They're flat and they're very thin! And you can kind of feel... they’re real flexible!

You know, like... like if you climb something with these things, they, like, bend and give!

It's not like a rigid thing, you know?

Uh, have you ever done a powerlifting meet?

Yeah, it's super fun, man!

What do you do? Like you go and...

Yeah! You go and compete! You compete in powerlifting!

I won my... uh, I won the Nationals at my age and weight!

I trained at this place...

How much do you lift, and how much do you lift?

Uh... I would weigh about 155, and I'll deadlift maybe like 360!

Jeez... that's a lot of weight!

And then my bench is maybe 230, 240, which doesn't sound like a lot of weight to people who go to the gym and just throw it around, but for 155, that's a lot of weight!

But a powerlifting, um, like a regulation, uh, bench press, you bring it down, it's got to stop all movement!

And you wait for the command to push! So it's... it's how long do you wait till all movement has stopped?

Might be 1 second, could be two, could be three, they say go, they say press!

So you can't bounce it off your chest! Stop all movement and press from that spot!

But I train in this place, I love it! I just... I love it!

Um, and in Toronto my wife comes now too, and I brought her at first because she always wanted me to cancel because I was in the morning.

She’s like, “Why don't we just go get for breakfast?"

Or "Oh, why do you have to go to the gym tomorrow?"

So then I just started one of those...

Yeah! Well, not... she's cool, man! Like she's a temptress!

She's super cool, but I was just like, she's, you know, she's always like, "Oh, just skip one!"

So I started, got her going. Now she loves it too!

But tons of women powerlift now!

Yeah, yeah!

And it shouldn't be the only thing that you do because weightlifting... you mentioned you lifted weights all your life!

And all of a sudden you did yoga and it added so much!

But if you're lifting weights, and doing movement and doing yoga and doing flexibility stuff... but that's hard to do!

That goes right back to what we said! You got to work out, you got to eat good, and you got to sleep or else you won't have a good life!

Well how do I have... most people don't have the time to do all the different things you would need to do!

That's why one of the most frustrating things about people that get into Jiu-Jitsu is they just do Jiu-Jitsu, and I'm always like, "Man, you really should lift some weights!"

Especially if you're getting older! Like it's one of the most important things to preserve the joints!

Like keeping muscle tissue strong and healthy, and making sure that you've got good muscle density that protect those joints!

'Cause you know you’re engaging in a form of combat on a regular basis, and you’re doing no strengthening other than that combat!

So we... people, when you go to the gym, you see the way the guys in there standing around, they're moving and stuff!

The jiu-jitsu guys are sitting around, chatting, right?

So that mood makes you feel like it’s not combat!

And then you do Jiu-Jitsu and it’s [ __ ] fighting!

You know?

It’s physically fighting!

Your joints are fighting!

And I think the mood of it makes it feel like, "Ah, you know, it's a bit of a stoner sport in some ways, guys just chill out and they're wearing the pajamas hanging out!"

But it's fighting!

Yeah! If you're getting caught in things, you know, just trying to fight out of them or trying to not tap, you put tremendous amount of pressure on your joints!

Tremendous amount of pressure on your neck, on your back!

There's always a lot of pressure on your back to try to get out of situations!

You're contorting yourself often, you know?

And you really need to be strong in those areas!

And flexible, flexible is a big one! It's very important!

I took... first time I met Eddie, I took his seminar.

And Eddie's got a room full of people, and I think he... I maybe had heard him say this before in a video or something.

And people are stretching, and he says, "So you got to... you got to work on that!"

And somebody said, "Well this is as flexible as I am!"

And he's like, "That is a very North American line of thinking! No other place where people go, 'This is as flexible as I am!’"

They'd say, "This is as flexible as I am right now! If I work at it, I will become more flexible like everything in life!"

But for some reason we have these limiting beliefs!

You know, it's like, "Do you know how to play piano?"

"No!"

"No! But you could learn how to play piano if it was important to you!

Yeah! And then in six weeks you’d be a better piano player than you are today!

And in three years you'd be a way better piano player!

That's true of every single thing in life!

And one of the reasons, you know, I learn stuff from studying Fighters, like I learn stuff about life, lots of stuff!

But one of those big ones is that growth mindset!

The idea that if we put in time on anything, it'll get better and the work itself is the point!

That thing for some, if a kid has that, their whole life is better!

If any, and we can have it at 40 or 50 or 60! The idea that whatever I am is not what I am!

It's what I am today, but I can improve those things!

I love that!

That's a great attitude! That's a great way to say it! Whatever I am is what I am today!

Yeah! It's like... I mean, P.E.. I talk about this guy. I like this little thing!

This thing's pretty cool!

I talk about that guy a lot, um, and people... we were talking about people hating sometimes!

People that they see on TV; some people hate this guy, of course they hate Conor!

He talks a lot of [ __ ]!

He's super successful!

Yeah, for sure!

Exactly! Exactly!

That's... you put it perfectly!

But the thing that guy has is that insane growth mindset.

Like, to him, anything is possible!

I believe anything is possible!

But if you win the 155 belt, okay, you go fight for... fight Robbie.

Okay, if you won that, what are you going to fight Rockhold? And then, you know, Jon Jones!

There are limits!

You know what I mean?

There are [ __ ] limits!

But he actually believes there are none!

And that belief, he's better at everything than he was yesterday!

You wait till Rockhold kicks him, you realize there are limits!

There's gotta be a point!

But that belief, that there is no point, that belief that there is no limit whatsoever is incredibly powerful when it's put together with a drive, with a work ethic!

That is a powerful thing!

Well, it's interesting too because with Fighters, when they're in camp most of the time, you're preparing for a specific opponent. You're not really picking up new skills!

The way they really pick up skills is by training and taking chances and going outside their comfort zone!

Which is really not something you want to do while you're conditioning yourself for a fight!

So a lot of times when guys are going back to back to back and they're fighting a lot, they're not really improving much!

What they're doing is just... they're improving their ability to compete because they're getting more comfortable because they're competing a lot!

They're getting relaxed, they're in great shape, and they're getting used to the feeling of being in competition!

But man, there's not a lot of time to take some time to just go over new stuff, to learn new things, to add new weapons!

Well, when I talked to him, and his coach, Kavanagh, who I only spoke to briefly, I actually tried to contact him to ask him if I could pick his mind a bit before doing this breakdown!

I took it as a big compliment that he’s like, “No! No, I’ll maybe chat with you after! Like that, if he gave me something I might pass it on!” I took it as a compliment!

Um, and I do a podcast, The Mentality of Combat Sports, and I do it with my very good friend David Mullins.

Is it on iTunes?

Uh, no it is or will be. We're not super on top of that!

How long have you been doing it?

We've been doing it for a year!

What the [ __ ]? On iTunes?

It's on like YouTube.

Like... it's on YouTube!

Yeah, but either has been on iTunes for a few months, or it’s in the process, we got a guy who does that!

Uh, but, uh, so... and I've been doing it with him.

And he is part of the SBG team. He's the... the straight blast gym, the combat... the sports psychology coach of the team!

Oh!

And when I ask him about... very good friends!

Um, but when I ask him about Conor, he says, “Conor is his own coach!”

But I know at the same time when you work with the coach, he's his own mental coach, he's on his own journey!

And not that he doesn't want information from David, but he wants it from 50 sources.

He's consuming like, uh, philosophy and ideas of how to improve and ideas of what it is to be your authentic self.

Peak performance, all that kind of stuff!

Not constantly consuming it, but... so my... but my insight info that I get from David working with them, he's like they don't train really for an opponent ever!

Really!

The opponent is he's not a person; he is a collection of skills, attributes, and a body type, and that’s it!

And we are training to get better every day!

The goal is to be better, not to train!

And why is that a good thing? Among the millions of reasons!

Jose Aldo's out, Chad Mendes is in!

If you spend all that time trading for Jose Aldo and only Jose Aldo... oh my God!

Chad Mendes is in...

Questions, doubts, concerns... what are we doing?

Game plan!

Instead, he was like, “It doesn't matter who it is!”

Wow!

And they train to get better every single day in everything!

Wow!

That's a great mindset if you can pull it off!
He's pulling it off!

Right now, I wonder how much of what he's doing, what he's able to do is his own unique physical gifts!

The fact that he's been so successful so far with this strategy, and you know, the also the people that he's training with.

He's got like fantastic training partners! Great grappling with Gunnar Nelson, great coaching...

I wonder how... what I wonder if that is the way to do it, because I wonder is there going to come a time where he faces another guy like him?

Like a guy that's on that level, and maybe it's Aldo dos Anjos, maybe it is... you know, um...

I just sent the breakdown in, and uh Craig at the UFC said it's good to go!

So they'll release it when their digital department does stuff!

So it's coming out in the next... your breakdowns are [ __ ] awesome, man!

I really, really love them!

I love doing them!

This one... eight to ten days!

But that's of work on it!

The ideas came over the last years, like just... but, uh, how long is the piece?

It's four minutes!

Let's play it!

Can we play it?

Uh, no we can't play it!

[ __ ]!

I know!

I know we can't [ __ ]!

Uh, it's... I know... I've already done you, but thank you for making that happen!

Oh please! My pleasure!

My pleasure!

Uh, when you recommended my stuff to Dana, I flew down to the office with him and Craig, and Dana and I were literally standing up acting out stuff while we were talking!

It was really, really exciting and cool!

And it is cool to be doing that for the UFC!

Oh, it’s awesome to have you, man!

Yeah, well when you first started doing it, we became friends and I would watch your stuff!

You know, I just immediately was saying, "Like, why this guy should be doing this for the UFC?"

Like, mean, your stuff is awesome!

You put so much thought into it, there’s so much and... and you can get so much out of it as a fan!

As someone who's like, "Look! This fight is goddamn epic! This Conor McGregor, Aldo Dos Anjos fight is an epic super fight!"

It's two champions in their prime. One of them coming off of a stunning 13-second knockout to win the title.

The other one coming off of a brutal beatdown of one of the most popular contenders!

I mean, dos Anjos looks like a goddamn murderer!

And Conor looks like a freak!

He does!

He’s just... these two guys, it's perfect!

It's the perfect fight!

So to get some technical insight and to get a view into what your thoughts are and footwork and movement and what dos Anjos could possibly do to mitigate some of that footwork...

What's going to happen if Conor gets on his back the way Mendes got him on his back?

Because dos Anjos is a lot bigger, a lot stronger and dangerous as [ __ ] with his submissions!

Yeah!

Chad's never really submitted people that Guillotine, but Conor used that threat to get up!

But Chad was... Chad was two weeks in for that fight!

Plus all the media obligations!

There's no way a guy who's got a wrestling-heavy strategy like Chad does, you're not going to be conditioned enough to go five rounds!

If... with two weeks, you had to knock him out!

And so he went in hard and early!

He pushed all his chips in!

Conor's got a chin that's made out of some [ __ ], the same [ __ ] that Wolverine's bones are made out of!

Adamantium!

Oh my God!

I've never seen anybody take a Chad Mendes punch to the face like that!

And, uh... he was getting hit with the right hand quite... he was getting hit with it!

I mean, whether or not... now, I mean, uh, dos Anjos is a southpaw too, so it changes things!

And he has... he knocked out Poirier, who was a southpaw!

And I think Brando is a southpaw too, so he has dealt with him!

But on the other hand, dos Anjos took out Ben Henderson, a southpaw, uh, Pettis switches... uh, Jason High was a southpaw!

Like he’s faced plenty of them!

Beast!

Yeah, it's interesting, but breaking that stuff down... when I looked at it, so my real goal is to make... to try to influence the way people watch fighting and to make them see it the way that I see it!

That's the actual goal!

The goal is that I see this crazy unbelievable stuff happening underneath some of the surfaces!

And I want to entertain people long enough that I can trick them into learning some of it!

And that's the plan!

Trick them into learning!

That's funny!

You just want to entertain them, make sure they're having a good time, and at the end of it, they are walking around going, "Yeah, and by the way, that kick works this way!"

And they do!

And 'cause if you go and you just stand there and you have a diagram... and you know... I think that was... there was always outside of... like people weren’t learning fighting from your commentary, and then there wouldn't be another show!

So then they'd have to come back, and they’d learn during the fights, which is great!

I mean that was... you did more to educate people about fighting than any person ever probably!

I mean, I can't think off the top of my head anybody who has contributed more knowledge of fighting!

And it was done, you're entertaining!

You're having fun!

It's... they love your voice!

So that was the learning!

But then there’s not another fight now for a few weeks.

We should learn some [ __ ] in the meantime!

And we should get you prepped with some knowledge!

Well there's never been a time like this before where you could get so many different breakdowns!

Like the Gracie breakdowns of submissions that Henner and Hiron do!

Lawrence Kenshin stuff!

Jack Slack stuff!

There's so much good stuff!

Who was the guy that Kenny was playing?

Yeah!

I forget his name off the top of my head!

Yeah, that was a weird situation!

Did you talk about that?

Did you talk about that much?

'Cause you were a guy who when that happened in comedy, you were not having that!

No, not really!

Uh... but it wasn't good!

You know, Kenny's take on it is that Kenny... he writes a lot of notes, and he's been writing notes for years and years!

And that's what happened!

He just failed to attribute, which, you know, may be the case!

I don't know!

It's... but I like the fact that we found out though!

Lee Wy... that's right!

Yeah!

He does great stuff!

There's a lot, and when I was started to do analysis, there wasn't a lot!

And I was hoping now... just like when you started doing a podcast!

You had hundreds of people say, "Oh, I started a podcast!"

Yeah!

And just like I get guys emailing me, "Hey, I'm doing analysis!"

And I think, and I wasn't the guy who started it; I can't take any credit for that!

Um, but when people did it excitedly, people were like, "Oh [ __ ]! Fighting is way more interesting than just...!"

I mean, the real thing that kind of would bother me is there wasn't... you know, a fight would happen, and this awesome stuff would happen, and crazy things that had meant something to the next time that you'd fight.

The way they move, all that stuff!

And people would be like, "Alrighty got it! Done at 2 minutes of the fifth... uh, 2 minutes of the third round! What's next for this guy?"

Which is... that's a great conversation!

Or what does this mean for the title rankings?

Or, "You know, who you going to call out?"

It was instantly looking ahead!

Fighting immediately was like, "Well what's the next fight?"

And how's it going to go down?

No amount of like, "What does it mean? What happened?"

I mean, we're taking human beings at the highest level of training and in a global experiment to figure out what is the ultimate way that human beings can do combat.

And we're putting them there at personal risk to themselves for our entertainment! And brilliant [ __ ] happens!

We can't just move on!

We can't just go, "Oh well, you know, Johnny won," or "GSP won," or whatever!

Well what’s his next fight?

We got to honor that fight!

We got to honor the fact that these guys are giving that stuff.

Well, I think we both agree that the fighters of today are the greatest fighters ever!

And the audience is far more knowledgeable today than they've ever been before!

So when we're watching all these breakdowns and all these different technique videos, like you, you have so much more access to mixed martial knowledge!

It's an incredible... like you ever follow any of those BJJ video ones on Instagram?

Like viral BJJ? Holy [ __ ] man, some of those [ __ ] moves like I've never seen!

I've been doing Jiu-Jitsu for 22 years; I never seen some of those moves!

It's incredible!

Some of these guys have like some sick [ __ ] transitions, man!

Amazing stuff!

Yeah, Jiu-Jitsu is a whole other fascinating world of its own right now!

But, uh, yeah, I just love now that it's like, it isn't just the outcome or the storyline around it or the [ __ ] talking, people are interested in the fight!

Like the thing that's happening when these geniuses are actually moving.

That just makes me... I'm glad that's happening!

I'm so glad that's happening!

You know?

And because that happens in other sports too!

Eventually, at first, just got to see home runs, man!

We're just going to sit around until the home runs happen!

Or, like, what if in football, people who love football didn't understand?

They were just bored out of their tree, booing when they ran the football one yard!

And they only cheered when it was like a long bomb!

You know?

That's what happened to some degree in fighting!

Guys would be against the fence or guys would be grappling, and people would be like, "Ah! When is the fighting going to happen?"

We still see that!

Yeah, we do!

We still see that!

I mean, especially when we go to like different markets outside of Vegas, and the audience is not that educated, they start booing when it goes to the ground!

Yeah! Crazy, crazy!

It sucks!

Um, I commentated Taekwondo for the Pan Am games!

Really?

Yeah!

And I I commentated like 8... maybe more like 10 or 12 traditional martial arts in Russia for the World Combat Games!

Wow!

And it's super cool!

And I'm just seeing that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is moving the way that those sports moved in a lot of ways!

Like in Taekwondo, it was awesome commentating that!

And the Mexican team won almost all the medals!

Really?

Yeah!

Because you can punch, as we all know, but we don't do it!

'Cause our coaches... and the way that we've taught and the way we've celebrated the spinning and beautiful techniques, that's what we’re doing!

The space in between you and me: being able to kick each other from here!

The Mexican team entered that space, took it away, and punched you in the body!

And they won!

They were throwing like body punches!

Body punches like W almost style body punches!

But it's like the sport itself kind of agrees to do Taekwondo, and that happens in every sport.

And in Jiu-Jitsu now, I love Jiu-Jitsu, but sport Jiu-Jitsu isn't really fighting anymore!

All this Baran Bolos and all these interesting stuff, they're beautiful, it’s fascinating, it’s an amazing sport, but if we are in an environment where we are going to sort of unconsciously agree that these are the structures and rules we have, the sport changes!

As soon as you remove punching, like a lot of these things, certain defenses to things is punch!

Once we remove that, you get this beautiful, cool sport, but it moves further away from fighting!

The same way every other martial art did!

Well, it can, but it also doesn't have to!

Like one of... one of the things I really love about what John Donahue is doing with Eddie Cummins and Gary Tonin and these assassins that he's got out of Henzo in New York is they're figuring out a way to use these leg lock transitions in a way that it's not dangerous to do.

Like you always... the traditional thought was when a guy goes for a leg and if you do it improperly, it is the truth, you're committing two arms to the leg, and you're not going to be able to defend against punches.

We saw that with Frank Mir versus Ian "The Machine" Freeman.

Remember that fight?

Frank was going for that heel hook, and Ian just kept punching him in the [ __ ] face.

And you know, and he stopped him!

While he wasn't tapping, he just slammed him in the face!

When Alan Belcher, when he was fighting, what's his name...

Harris Paul Harris!

Yeah!

You don't see that anymore!

Um, with the highest level Jiu-Jitsu guys, they’re putting themselves in a position!

First of all, when a guy like Gary Tonin or Eddie Cummins grabs a hold of your leg, you have fractions of a second before your knee explodes!

And so you... the transitions and the technique is so tight, you don't have that space to swing wild punches!

They're not giving it to you!

They are putting you in a very, very dangerous spot immediately!

And it's the technique and the thought process behind it!

And whether it's perfected by Donahue or a bunch of other people, I know Dean Lister was initially a part of that as well!

He taught those guys a lot, and he was one of the early leg lock masters!

But these guys are doing it in a way where these techniques that I might have agreed with you just a few years ago, really aren't for MMA!

Like the 55th apply... M-theology! The whole thing about fighting, like [ __ ] cool about fighting!

You know? Um, but another in a long list of cool things is how the money that exists!

Like when we talk about why the UFC is a great thing, I think the UFC is an awesome thing!

When you monetize something, more study and things happen to it soon as... as soon as you say, "You can become wealthy if you get good at this," gyms and businesses and things can pop up around it!

It speeds the evolution of how things happen!

And because MMA exists as a way to get paid for doing fighting, guys like Donahue will arc back with their study of the martial art back to where they get paid, which is fighting!

Well, it's interesting because you need a guy like a Donahue; you need one of those genius guys to just try to figure out what's the best way to approach this? Where are the problems?

Well, the problems keep happening when you're going into the transition and the guy grabs his leg...

Okay, how do we stop that?

Well, let's look... let's look at it backwards!

Let's attack it from this side!

Now we're going to attack it this way!

Like so many times when, uh, guys would go for an arm from side control, you'd be in side control or you'd be in the mount, you would grab an arm, you’d swing over and you would go and you'd commit to that arm!

And then the legs would fly over for the defense!

Eddie Bravo was one of the first guys to say, "Well, let's not... let's not hook it with the right arm!

Say if you're going for someone's right arm and you’re trying to armbar them, don't hook it with your right arm, hook it with the left and grab their leg with your other arm!

And then commit to it that way!

Because this way, you’ve stopped the defense and you've got a much more secure set of offense!

And the way... one of the reasons why people were going for it in the first place was because of the gi!

Now the gi is a really interesting thing because I think the gi is very good defensively, and I think defensively it's one of the best tools to make sure that you’re using proper technique!

Because you can't just explode out of things!

You have to use the right position!

You have to understand where you're in danger, where you're not in danger!

However, when it comes to attacking, the gi gives you so many more handles and so many more options!

And I think it's false security!

And I think you're way better off not using it to attack!

Yeah, I know!

Yeah, I mean that's a whole other part of the sport too!

It's like you roll with these gi guys, and they're like sneaking this thing, and you're like, "Oh [ __ ]! What is he