Apple CEO Tim Cook on what it takes to run the world's largest company | Dua Lipa: At Your Service

[Music] Tim, thank you! It's so great to be here. It's so great to have you here, honestly. It's amazing to have you here at home on my sofa, and I love it. It's beautiful. Thank you.

I—I have to say, like, before this interview, I went on the internet to see what Apple is worth, and it's astonishing. It's the biggest company in the world with a valuation of around three trillion dollars, and I guess that's just such like a—it's an incredible figure, just in itself. And I guess it's more than entire countries, to kind of put it into perspective. It's about the same as the GDP of the UK or France.

And I understand that you're only doing one interview while you're here in the UK, and I just feel so, so lucky and honored that you chose me and Service 95 to talk to, and I'm just so delighted to have you here. I'm so glad you would spend time with me.

What? I'm serious! Of course, serious! No, this is—this is really exciting because I'm really looking forward to just digging into, like, some of the issues that you're looking into now and in the future and as well as, like, what you've learned about tech, and life, and leadership in your 25 years at Apple. Like, it's incredible! Should we just get started?

Absolutely! Absolutely! Raring to jump down.

So, it's not every day that I have, like, the CEO of the world's biggest company in my living room, so I should probably take a little bit of advantage of that and get some tips to help with my own work-life balance. And I was wondering, like, what is the day-to-day running of a company like Apple? And take me a little bit through your day—like a day in the life of Tim Cook, from the moment you wake up to the very end of the day.

I get up really early. I'm an early bird, like at 4:00—4:00 to 5:00. Wow! And I spend my first hour doing email, and I'm pretty religious about doing this. I read emails from a lot of customers and employees, and the customers are telling me things that they love about us or things that they want changed about us.

Employees are giving me ideas, but it's a way to stay grounded in terms of what the community is feeling, and I love it. That's just amazing. And then after—so you do emails, and then you go into the office, and it's just more kind of—well, before I go into the office, I go work out.

Okay! And so, emails, working out—working out. I spend an hour in the gym, usually doing strength training. Okay! And I've got somebody to really push me to do things I don't want to do, and I do no work during that period of time at all. I never check my phone.

Okay. I'm just totally focused on working out, and after doing that, after showering, etc., I go into the office, and I start working with people I love. And it's an incredible feeling to work with people that bring out the best in you, and that fundamentally we all believe that 1 plus 1 equals three, you know?

That your idea plus my idea is better than the individual ideas of their own. I love that, and so things like that go on all day long. And I'll divide the day in terms of spending time with product teams or spending time with marketing teams or spending time with the executive team, and we're either handling issues of the day or hopefully our balance is more on working on future stuff and thinking about what's next.

It's just amazing! I mean, I want to go back to the start a little bit. Um, because you grew up in a blue-collar family. I did—in small-town Alabama. And now you're heading the world's most valuable company. I mean, it's a pretty incredible journey that you've been on. Um, can you tell me a little bit about your upbringing and, like, how it set you up on this road?

It was really a—uh—a jagged journey. My childhood—I come from a very modest background. My mother worked in a pharmacy as a clerk, and my father worked in a shipyard. Very blue-collar family. Lots of love, little money. That was sort of the childhood.

And they really taught me the value of hard work and instilled in me at an extremely young age that working could bring you great purpose and be a key part of your life. I started actually with a paper route when I was 13—throwing, tossing papers. And I would get up in the middle of the night to throw everybody's paper so that when they got up in the morning, they would have their newspaper.

And I then took various jobs from there, whether it was flipping hamburgers at the local Tasty Freeze and doing anything I could to make some amount of money because I really wanted to go to college. And, you know, my father being in the shipbuilding business, was subject to layoffs.

In that business, it was a very cyclical kind of business, right? And so we would go through tougher times during the layoff periods, and I always wanted something better for myself—more of a job that was regular and that you could depend on an income stream with. And so I wanted to go to college and better myself. I wound up at Auburn, which is a public university in Alabama, and I loved it.

Yeah, I loved it! The uni experience was—the university experience was unbelievable. I went a little wild. Yeah, of course! And, uh, you have to—you have to! College! You have to! And the world just opened for me.

I was always curious, but you get even more curious in college because you can take so many different courses and challenge yourself in intellectual different ways, and it was wonderful. And then after that, I started my career at, uh, first at IBM, and then went to, uh, graduate school at Duke, and then eventually made my way to Apple.

It's an incredible journey! It's like I—hearing you speak, like, I remember also when I was really young. I think I always wanted to have a job. It was, again, like when I was 13. I was in school, and I think my first job I had gone to a pharmacy nearby, and a woman was selling, like, I guess it was like the Swedish equivalent to like Avon or something at the time.

And I was like, let me take this catalog and sell products in my school. So that was kind of like my first job. Um, and then it progressed from there. But very early on, I had like a dream that I always wanted to do music and that I wanted to be on stage, and I wanted to perform.

And I think I was probably, like, 10 where I was like, I really want to do this, but I never really knew that it was even possible. What was your dream? Like, was being the head of Apple something that you would have ever envisioned?

It's not something I envisioned for myself, to be totally honest with you. I was in high school. I wanted to be a musician, and I learned how—or kind of learned how to play the trombone. I was never any good at it really, but I wanted to be in a jazz band, and I was in a marching band for a while, and it kind of hit me that I was never going to be great at it.

Okay, that this was just not my calling, and—but I loved math and sciences, so I decided to study engineering in college, and that's where I got my start—was engineering. And I was first focused on robotics and in the manufacturing lines and learning how to manufacture products.

Okay, and this was really cool to me because I love creating things. It's so nice to just get to know you a bit more because I think it's fair to say that, you know, we know less about you than the more, let's say, extroverted leaders of other big tech companies.

What kind of leader do you try to be?

I try to be a really good one. I try to be one that really deeply believes in collaboration, because I do deeply believe that our ideas—bouncing ideas off of one another—that this creates a bigger idea than either one of us could generate on our own. And that when you can do this with larger groups of people—not totally large, but, you know, several people—that these ideas can be exponential in size and magnitude.

And it's unbelievable what you can create with them, whether it's creating products or creating marketing or whatever you're working on together. I really deeply believe this, and so, my leadership style is to try to get everyone to work together in that kind of way.

Yeah, the art of collaboration I think is special! Like, when minds come together and create something really unique. Um, there's a mythology around your predecessor and the founder of Apple, Steve Jobs. He was a great visionary leader. Yes!

And I watched the film called "Jobs" like a few years ago now, and he is a fascinating subject. But at the same time, when you joined Apple in 1998, the company was almost bankrupt. That's right!

And today, as I said earlier, it's worth about $3 trillion, and around 90% of that came under your tenure. Um, do you ever think that you don't get enough credit?

No, I don't look at it like that at all, to be honest. Steve was the original, and I think only Steve could have created Apple, and we owe him a debt of gratitude.

And there's no doubt in my mind that if he were still alive today, the company would be doing outstanding, and he would still be CEO. And so I don't think of it as a credit deal, and plus I get to work with people that I love and that are unbelievable at doing what they do, and so we share the credit from the company.

I love that! I think you're an incredible leader, and I think in more ways than one. Um, when you publicly came out in 2014, you were the only openly gay CEO in the Fortune 500. And today, nearly 10 years later, that number has increased to four, right?

So that's only four openly gay CEOs across 500 companies. Um, first of all, what the hell? Like, I feel like we've moved on further than this. Why do you think we're still not seeing equal representation at, like, the top levels of business?

I think there's still a glass ceiling, and not in every company. We've shattered the glass ceiling in Apple, and people that came before me—I stood on their shoulders, and we took it further and further. But I think in a large number of companies, there's still a glass ceiling. It's bizarre that it's like that.

My own deep belief is that everybody should be treated with dignity and respect, and if you start from that angle, a lot of other problems kind of go away and never create themselves. But I do think there's still a ceiling—not only for LGBTQ but for women and for people of color.

And we have more work to do, definitely. The society definitely has more work to do in many countries in the world and most countries in the world.

Yeah, I am quite interested in, like, the racial diversity in business as well. Yes, I checked earlier, and it's also—it's like currently eight Black CEOs in the Fortune 500, and I imagine that it must be quite important to you because you grew up during the Civil Rights era in the US in the Deep South.

Like, do you have any recollections from that time that continue to influence your approach to equality today?

Oh, yes! I remember when Dr. King was assassinated, and this was an extremely sad time because he was such a statue that you felt like he was taking the world in the direction it should go, and it wasn't so clear who else was going to follow him.

The same year that he was assassinated, Bobby Kennedy was assassinated, and this was in '68, and I was eight years old at the time. And this was just—the combination of these two assassinations really weighed heavily on me as a very, very young person knowing that these two were pushing the human race where it needed to go.

And it was a very, very sad time.

I guess we can't really talk about Apple without talking about the iPhone. Um, and my first iPhone, I think, was like a hand-me-down from my dad.

Oh really? Yeah, and then I got my first one, like, on contract. I think it was like the iPhone 6 or something that I got, and I was so excited when I got it.

And today, it's like an extension of my body, you know? I even have like the little dip in my finger from how much I use it. But I'm quite mindful, you know, when I use my phone. Like I—I use my phone because I work on it all the time, but I try and be mindful and pick up a book rather than use my phone, especially like when I'm traveling or flying or whatever.

But regardless of that, I'm on my phone a lot. I guess I just kind of want your honest take on, like, do you think there's excessive phone usage, especially in young people? And if so, what can be done about it?

I think there is excessive use of the smartphone, including the iPhone, and that's the reason we came up with screen time. Honestly, we wanted—we felt like one of the most important things we could do was surface the amount you're spending, sort of similar to what we do on the ‘w,’ which promotes your ability to move more, burn more calories, stand more, and—but on the phone, we're looking at that from the opposite point of view and saying, do you really want to spend five hours a day on your phone, or whatever the number might be?

Yeah, and also telling you what you're doing on it, where you're spending your time. We also did things like surfacing how many notifications you get because sometimes it's not the amount of time, but it's the interruptions, right?

And that—what you mean? Like throughout the day that keep kind of checking it? It's like a—

That's right! Yeah, and I noticed when I remember when I started using the tool before it was released, the "aha" moment for me was how many notifications I was getting in a day. I was embarrassed by the number I was getting in a day, and I quickly went and looked to see who's sending me all of these, and I started cutting out different notifications from different groups that I felt like, you know, at the end of the day, I can catch up on this.

At the end of the day, exactly! I don't need to know at the moment when something is happening.

Yeah, and so I think screen time is important. And of course, for kids, if you're a parent, then setting some parameters around where they're spending time, what apps they're using—all of this becomes really important.

Yeah, and we make tools for all of these things.

Yeah, it's interesting. I made like a little change on my phone where, like, if I get a notification, my text—the text that I get doesn't come through. It just says "notification."

Right!

And I think that helps because immediately when you see the message, it's hard to ignore, right? So when you just see that it says "notification," you're like, all right, I'll leave it for a second and I'll check it when I can, essentially.

That's right! So I think those parameters are good, especially for young children or teenagers who just, like—but I think it's good. I've always said, if you're looking at your phone more than you're looking in someone's eyes, you're doing the wrong thing, right? You're doing the wrong thing, and so you need to course-correct.

Yeah, I think that's really important. I think that's really important for sure!

This year, I feel like more than ever, we've—I don't know. Every time we turn on the news, there's kind of another climate disaster. Yes!

And I think we're all collectively really worried about the climate crisis in our respective industries, and I think everyone's trying to figure out what the right thing to do is and how we can combat everything that's happening.

Um, and I was just wondering, like, what is Apple's climate strategy, and what do you think are the hardest problems to solve?

It's a great question. We started running the company on 100% renewable energy several years ago, and we realized this is not sufficient—that we had to go focus on our supply chain, which is largely outside of our company, right?

And the energy that it takes to recharge our products at customer homes and offices, and so we set an objective to take all of that cycle—the whole product cycle to carbon neutral by 2030, where all of our products are carbon neutral.

This is 20 years before the Paris Accord. Sorry—carbon neutral is kind of like offsetting, right?

Well, carbon neutral is a combination of driving the carbon away totally, and then whatever the residual amount is left to offset that by planting forest or grasslands that pulls carbon from the atmosphere.

Okay! So if this is a really good question—so if you look at the Apple Watch, certain models of the Apple Watch that we just shipped a week ago?

Yeah!

They're carbon neutral now, and this happened seven years earlier than we had initially thought we could do it. Okay!

And the way that we got there was it has a high degree of recycled material in it, and so we were in a position where we could stop pulling certain products from the earth, which creates carbon emissions.

We have numerous solar farms and wind farms on the renewable side, yeah, and then on the transportation, we shrunk our packaging significantly so that we could ship more products, and we took them out of the air and put them on the sea, which is a much lower carbon emission way of—transport.

Yeah! And this got us to reduce the carbon footprint by almost 80%. These combination of tasks—

And then the last 20%, we offset with high-quality offsets, like planting forest and grasslands.

And, um, you know, sometimes all the terminology can be a little bit confusing.

It can! For me too, to try and, like, understand.

But, okay, so we have carbon neutral and net zero, and that's kind of like carbon neutral, that's right. But it includes also, like, greenhouse gases, am I right in thinking that?

Most people that say carbon neutral mean that the carbon has been driven to the lowest amount currently possible, and then the balance has been offset.

Okay. Some people use it in a different terminology; that's how we use it.

Okay, and that's different to zero emissions entirely?

Like, is zero emissions where we're trying to get to?

Yes! Like, I presume that's the goal for the planet.

Like, how do—how do we do that when I think of zero emissions? I think of no offsets.

Okay. When I think of net zero, I think of offsets included.

Okay! But is there a way to get to—or are we just too late in it? Like, is there a way to get to zero emissions?

I think over the long arc of time, yes. I think we have to believe that that's possible. I think in the short term, you need some level of offsets to get to carbon neutral.

Okay!

Um, I also want to talk about, because you had just mentioned the recyclable product. That's right!

And I was—while I was researching for this interview, like, I came across some, like, I guess, distressing articles about, like, young kids mining cobalt in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

And I guess it's a complicated issue for, like, all tech companies, but I guess what I was wondering is, my new iPhone 15—like, can you guarantee that the cobalt that's in that phone has not been mined, like, using child labor in the DRC?

Yes, we can because we do two things. Well, first of all, I should back up and say our objective over time is to take nothing from the earth to make our products.

Okay! This is a big idea of not having to mine anything, is to use all recycled material, and today we're using 100% recycled cobalt in the watch and 100% recycled gold, tin, tungsten, and other rare materials in the water. So we're really proud of those.

Yeah! But for those products that we still do mine for some of our other products, we have an intense level of tracing in our supply chain all the way back to the mine and the smelter to make sure that the labor used is not child labor.

Okay! And I think we do a really good job of that.

Okay, amazing! So this is good. This is like looking forward into the future with all the new products, which is great!

And, um, while I was transferring my old phone into my new phone, it also said that there's a service for me to be able to recycle my old phone.

That's right!

Yeah, this is a great point to make because what we try to do is—we know people want to upgrade and get new phones.

And so if you have a phone that's working, we'll clean it up and resell that to someone else who wants to buy a used phone.

Okay! If you have a phone that's not working, we will disassemble that product robotically and recycle the materials, and it will become part of the recycled content of the new phone.

Okay! And so there's a closed-loop process there that we've worked on significantly to make sure that we're reusing all of the old phones.

Okay! And this is like a service that I can go to the Apple Store, let's say, send in my phone, and can I—and we'll give you money for it too?

Okay! So I could get a discount on my—you can get a discount on the new phone! That's right!

It acts as a kind of subsidy.

Something that I've been quite, like, obsessed with, I guess, in the tech sphere, right, um, is AI. Yes!

And some days, I feel like I've got a really good grasp on, like, the potential of AI, and other days, I just haven't got a clue at all.

Um, I just feel like it's so complex, but I think most experts can agree that, like, AI is something that's going to completely change our world, um, and it's kind of almost like the—in like the invention of the internet.

And I guess you would seem in better position than most to speculate, like, how that world is going to look like. And I was just wondering what your thoughts are on that.

I think the first thing to know is that if you're an Apple customer today, AI is in all of the products that we produce in a very significant way. We don't label it as such.

If you're composing a message or an email on the phone, you'll see predictive typing. It tries to predict your next word so you can quickly choose the word—that's AI!

And so AI is sort of everywhere today. What has gathered people's imagination, I think, more recently is generative AI and the use of large language models.

And I think this is an area that can also be life-changing. And it can be life-changing in a good way because it can do things like—in the future, I don't mean necessarily today, it can help diagnose a problem that you're having from a health point of view.

There's many, many things that—there's a limitless kind of number of things that AI can do.

Unfortunately, it can also do not good things, right? And I know that those are things that I'm, like, more worried about because it seems like there's so many great things AI can do, but then I think it also, like, poses profound risks and like a threat to humanity, and I'm like, tell me AI is going to destroy the world, you know?

Yeah, what is needed with AI, with this new form of AI—generative AI—is some rules of the road, some regulation around this.

And I think most—or many governments around the world are now focused on this and focused on how to do it and we're trying to help with that, and we're one of the first ones that say this is needed—that some regulation is needed.

Uh, for us, we're very thoughtful and deliberate about how we approach these things. And so we think deeply about how people will use our products, and if they can be used for nefarious reasons, we don't go down those paths.

So I guess I'm wondering, like, are our governments actually able to regulate AI, or have we kind of gone past that point?

It's a really good question. I think most governments are a little behind the curve today. I think that's a sort of a fair assessment to make. But I think they're quickly catching up.

I think the, um, the US, the UK, the EU, and several countries in Asia are quickly coming up to speed, and I do think there will be some AI regulation in the next 12 to 18 months.

Okay! And so I'm pretty confident that will happen!

Yeah, because I think it could be a bit catastrophic if it goes rogue and there's no control.

Yeah, we need it controlling!

Yeah, we absolutely need it.

Yeah, it's a real, like, sign of the times, I guess, the way that things are just completely rapidly changing.

And, um, with all the new products as well, I mean, when you think about it, like, the smartphone has entirely changed the world, and I guess the—the—you know, obviously the internet, and now AI is going to completely change the world.

Like, what product or technology do you think is going to have a similar transformative impact, like, in the future? And do you think it's going to be an Apple invention?

You know, we just launched in June the Vision Pro. You can be sitting here in your living room, and you can have your virtual world overlying your physical world.

And all of a sudden, you and I might be having this conversation, and we may want to reference something, and you could kind of pull it up in space, and we could chat about it.

That's fascinating! But you use your hands. It's not like you—

You use your hands and your eyes.

Oh! You use your eyes as well?

In your eyes! And so if you just look at something on Vision Pro, uh, you can select it with your eyes.

And so that's fascinating! And it—it’s so wild because it's—people pick it up like this, you know, just—they can't believe how easy to use it is!

But we spent years in researching and developing this product to make it so simple to use that it works like your mind works. If you look at something, you kind of expect it to do something, and it does!

Yeah, that's fascinating! I mean, how far do you think we are from, like, tech actually becoming part of, um, part of our bodies? Like, do you think—

Well, in some ways, we're there because the watch becomes a part of your body in a way, right? And it's measuring all of these things that you're doing—your movement, your stand, your exercise, your heart.

Uh, it's looking for things like diseases and so forth, like IB that you may have, and alerting you before the symptoms would ever alert you.

And, and so I think wearable tech has become an extension of your body now. And as you mentioned earlier, the iPhone, in a lot of ways, has become an extension of—it's a complete extension of my body!

So that's why I'm like—I guess we're probably not so far away of, um, just it being a part of us. But I always wonder, like, do you think this is going to improve the human condition?

I think it must. Technology doesn't want to be good or bad. It's in the hands of the creator of whether it is. And you can bet that we're being very thoughtful and very deliberate on things that we develop, so our technology is for good—and that it's really enriching people's lives, uh, not distracting.

Yeah, amazing! Really, really cool. I mean, I imagine there's so many people who are listening to this interview who would love to work in the tech industry, and I was wondering, like, what tips have you got?

And do you have to be able to code? Or if I had an English degree, like, would I be able to, like, work at Apple?

Like, what are some tips?

We hire people from all walks of life, and people that have college degrees, people that don't, people that code, people that don't.

I do recommend coding for everyone to learn because I think it's a form of expressing yourself, and it's a global language, and it's the only global language that we all share—is coding.

And so I recommend it, but we hire people that don't know how to code, and we hire a lot of people that don't code on a daily basis that do other things.

I think one of the characteristics that I look for in people are collaboration that we talked about earlier. Can they really collaborate? Do they deeply believe that 1 plus 1 equals three? Important!

Yeah!

I think curiosity is a trait that I love about people—about people that ask questions, that are so curious about how things work, how people think—all of the "whys" and "how's" questions.

I love people that are creative because we're looking for people that can see around the corner—as ultimately we want to create products that people can't live without, but they didn't know they needed.

Right? And you kind of want to get ahead of the curve!

And kind of, that's right! That’s right! So all of these traits go into, I think, making a great team player.

I—I can only imagine that you've done pretty well financially at Apple. Yes!

And that you've said that you intend to give away, like, a majority of your wealth. That's right!

I guess Bill Gates has made a similar pledge, and his big vision was, like, to end poverty and disease. And what's the big global challenge that you feel like you want to solve, and how do you plan to do it?

You know, because of my background, equality is a big one. And I do deeply believe that everyone should be treated with dignity and respect around the world, and so I'll steer a lot of my resources accordingly.

I also want to make sure that people that were in a similar—or are in a similar position to where I was, where you're from a family without significant means, that you can go to school.

Because I believe that education is the great equalizer of people, and so I'll steer some of my money to scholarship funds as well to make sure that kids in those areas can do well and have the opportunity that I had.

Franklin, I'm imagining like a young Tim Cook growing up in Robertsdale, Alabama. Like, are you satisfied with where you are right now?

I'm incredibly humbled for where I am. I feel privileged, and I want to give back. I want to help other people achieve the same dream that I've achieved.

I—I didn't have a dream to be CEO of Apple; it was beyond what I would have ever dreamed for myself.

And uh, but it happened, and I want to make sure it can happen for other people as well.

I love that! I mean, you've been at Apple for 25 years! Yes!

Like, do you plan to be there for the next, I don't know, three, four, five years? You planning on staying till 2050 and seeing the environmental—?

2050 might be a stretch, you know!

Like, I don't know how long I'll be there. I love it there, and I can't envision my life without being there.

Yeah, and so I'll be there for a while.

Okay, okay, cool! So there's no succession plan that you've got?

Well, we now—we're a company that believes in working on succession plans, and so we have very detailed succession plans.

Okay!

And because something that's unpredictable can always happen—I can step off the wrong curb tomorrow, and hopefully that doesn't happen!

Does it happen?

I pray that it doesn't!

But no, are you able to say who's in line for succession?

Oh, I can't say that, but I would say my job is to prepare several people for the ability to succeed, and I really want the person to come from within Apple—the next CEO.

And so that's my role is to make sure that there's several for the board to pick from.

Okay, amazing! Um, well that's really—that was amazing. That was great!

I love talking to you about just all things—life, leadership, tech. Um, and I actually love to end my conversations with a list.

Okay!

And I read about your love of, um, national parks, and I understand that you're a very keen hiker. Yes!

So I was wondering what five national parks to visit in the US.

Oh, it’s a tough list because there's so many great ones, but I would say YED, which is sort of my local national park in a way—it's so beautiful!

Uh, the Grand Canyon—beautiful!

Uh, Grand Teton—Glacier!

Okay! And Zion!

Okay!

So there are a few I haven't been to, and they're all so special, and when you're out in them, it reminds you of how small all of us are relative to the grandeur of nature.

And it's sort of a palette cleanser for the mind—being out there and hiking and sweating.

And it's—for me, it's just—it's incredibly meditative, and I love it!

Yeah, that sounds special! I got to do more hiking and exploring and being a bit more outdoorsy, I think.

Oh! I would highly recommend it!

And in Europe, this summer, I went to the Dolomites.

Oh, yeah!

And the Dolomites were— I—it was just jaw-dropping! I just—I was so excited about being there, and the hiking and the Via Ferratas are incredible to do.

I would highly recommend it! I'm going to go back!

So cool!

Yeah!

Um, and then my—my next and last list is—we recently started a Service 95 book club, right?

And I love to ask my guests about their reading pile, right?

Um, can you share five books that have shaped you?

Yes! Uh, as a young student—"To Kill a Mockingbird."

And I think it's not just for young students, but for all of us still.

Um, "Shoe Dog."

Oh, yeah!

Which was Phil Knight's book, and it's kind of meant to be a business book, but it's a book on life.

I really like that book! It's really great!

Yeah!

Um, "When Breath Becomes Air" was phenomenal.

Um, Malala's book—I Am Malala.

Uh, I love Malala's story and her passion around young girls' education, and we work with her, and the work that she does is incredible.

And then I love reading biographies of Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy and some of the great people that were pushing forward on civil rights.

Amazing!

Yeah!

Tim, thank you so much for your time and your generosity! This has just been such a fascinating and illuminating conversation, and yeah, I think it's going to be amazing for all the listeners. I think they're going to have a lot to take away from this!

So, yeah, thank you for having—

Thank you so much for coming and being here in London and spending some time with me today.

Thank you for having me! It means the world to me, and thanks for having me in your beautiful home!

Oh, anytime! Maybe we can—we can do this again sometime.

Absolutely! I'll look forward to it!

Perfect! Thank you so much!

Thank you!