Homeroom with Sal & John B. King Jr. - Tuesday, August 25

Hi everyone! Welcome to the Homeroom live stream. Very excited about the conversation we're about to have. But before we jump into that, I'll make a couple of my standard announcements.

First of all, just a reminder that Khan Academy is a not-for-profit organization. We can only exist through philanthropic donations from folks like yourself. So, if you're in a position to do so, please think about going to khanacademy.org/donate.

I also want to give a special shout-out to several organizations who've really stepped up when they realized that Khan Academy was running at a deficit even before the COVID crisis. And during the crisis, as you can imagine, our traffic is almost 300% of normal, our registrations are 10x of normal. We're trying to accelerate a bunch of content and programs. So special thanks to Bank of America, Google.org, AT&T, Fastly, Novartis, and the Amgen Foundation, and many other supporters who have allowed Khan Academy to be in a position to serve a lot of folks in this time of need and beyond.

I also want to make sure everyone knows if you want to listen to these conversations maybe in the car or some other place, you can get them on "Homeroom with Sal," the podcast. And you can find it in any place where you can find podcasts.

So, with that, I'm really excited to introduce our guest, John King. John, great to have you!

John King: Glad to be here! Thanks for inviting me. It's a real honor.

Sal: John is—sir, you've served as Secretary of Education under President Obama. You're the President and CEO of the Education Trust. There's so much I want to talk to you about, but before just everyone kind of really understands the work that you do now, what does the Education Trust do? What is your focus?

John King: Sure! We're an education civil rights organization, so we work to ensure equitable access to educational opportunity, particularly for low-income students and students of color.

Sal: I want to encourage everyone given that now what you know about John, put your questions on YouTube and Facebook. We have team members who will surface them to myself and John over the course of this conversation.

So, John, maybe a good place to start given both your work in the Obama administration and the work that you do now—how are you viewing the crisis? I'd argue we're facing an education crisis right now around the school closures. How do you think it's going to play out? What do you think we should be doing?

John King: Yeah, well, we're in a disastrous situation because the country is in a disastrous situation. The federal government really failed to manage the pandemic based on the science. We still don't have a coherent national strategy around rapid results testing, around contact tracing, around effective quarantine, around mask wearing, and other public health guidelines. So, in the absence of a coherent national strategy, we're left in a situation where schools are bearing the brunt of the consequences.

Superintendents and school boards are in an impossible situation of trying to figure out how to serve kids in a context where there's tremendous community spread of COVID-19. The reality is many places will have to be distance or best hybrid, and we're doing that in a context where we still have this huge digital divide. I mean, I don't have to tell you, the Pew study shows 79% of white families have reliable internet access, 66% of Black families, 61% of Latino families. The schoolhouse door is literally barred for students because they don't have the internet.

We have gaps in access to devices, we have gaps in access to professional development and support for teachers around doing distance learning well. Well-resourced districts have a ton of support; under-resourced districts, disproportionately serving low-income students and students of color, don't have those supports for teachers. And we see those consequences playing out.

You know, the last thing I mentioned is there's a real socio-emotional toll to school closure. School is the place where kids and adults build critically important relationships. I was a kid. My life was saved by my relationships at school. My mom passed when I was eight, my dad when I was twelve. The thing that saved me was the reliability, the consistency of school.

So my heart breaks for kids who this spring were isolated in homes where there was abuse or domestic violence or just the trauma of COVID-19, health issues, or COVID-19 economic issues. And now we go into a new school year where we're going to see those same socio-emotional challenges. So we're in a tough spot as an education sector.

Sal: If you were sitting in your old job as Secretary of Education right now — and obviously what you just described is absolutely true — ideally, we would have really solid contact tracing and testing, etc. But given where we are now, what would you be doing as Secretary of Education? Some would argue that there's only so many levers at the federal level from an education point of view, but what levers are there?

John King: Yeah, well really three things. One is the Secretary in the Education Department should be fighting for resources for schools. If the federal government doesn't step forward with significant stimulus dollars, school districts are going to end up making layoffs at this critical time.

If there aren't stimulus dollars, we can't address the digital divide issues. There's a proposal in Congress for four billion dollars to expand the E-rate program so that schools can help families get access to the internet; we should do that. We need Congress to step up in that way, and we need the Secretary of Education to be fighting for resources for schools and for our most vulnerable kids.

That's one. Two, we need to lift up best practices. What are great examples of people doing distance and hybrid learning well? What does that look like? You know, the Secretary has an incredible bully pulpit and could be sharing those models from around the country, could be lifting up districts like the Phoenix Union School District in Arizona that has an "Every Student, Every Day" campaign where an adult from the school district is in touch with every kid every day just to make sure they're checking on them, seeing if they need food or a Wi-Fi hotspot or help with math.

And then the third piece is guidance around navigating some of these public health considerations. You know, what should school districts be thinking about in terms of rates of community spread, and when should they make decisions about opening or closing? What should they do when there's a case within a school building? How many cases should they see before they make the decision to close? School districts need guidance on these things. We have 13,000 school districts each making these decisions on their own with very little help from the federal government.

Sal: Taking those one by one, you know your first point about the funding situation—or at least trying to close the digital divide and giving access—feels like something that's beyond politics. It feels like it's a no-brainer. We're putting a trillion dollars into each of these rounds of stimulus. Is there a counter-argument, or are people just reticent to? I mean, it seems like a small percentage— not even a percentage— of the amount of stimulus to get everyone access.

John King: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think as always happens when there's an economic crisis, there are people who make, well, if you'll forgive the social studies teacher reference, there are people who make the Hoover argument. You know, we have to do less; we can't help people.

I think that's exactly wrong. This is an FDR moment. We should think about internet access the way we thought about electricity in the New Deal. We had the Tennessee Valley Authority; we had this massive national commitment to make sure people had electricity because you needed to operate in the 20th-century economy.

Well, now we need the internet to operate in the 21st-century economy. It's how kids go to school, but it's also how higher ed students go to college. It's how folks can get access to benefits; it's how you look for a job today. We really could be doing more on this front, but again, there are folks who want to say, well, because of the financial crisis from COVID, we have just to give up on our aspirations.

Sal: It makes a ton of sense. I mean, the part that makes tons of sense is that we shouldn't be giving up. On your second point about guidance, I mean, that is something that I feel as well— that if people just had some direction on what solid distance learning can look like or what hybrid learning looks like, that in and of itself...

And you know, we're trying to do what we can, given what limited voice we have. You know, that example you mentioned in Phoenix is fascinating. I'm actually surprised I hadn't heard of that yet. What other best practices for any educators out there listening or any parents who are maybe in a position to help influence what their schools are doing? What best practices have you been seeing that you think need more amplification?

John King: Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm so grateful for what you're doing and what your team is doing to try to make resources available. That's critical. Some things we're seeing, you know, Baltimore City, for example, is doing this project where in some schools they're having their strongest teacher deliver the sort of full class lesson while the other teachers play more of a tutoring and support role for students.

I think there's an opportunity here for creative staffing where people can play different roles, and you sort of leverage people's talents. We ought to be doing more of that in this moment. There are school districts that are being very intentional about the supports kids need to do asynchronous work well.

And you know this from your work: there are a set of skills around setting goals, managing your time, asking for help and feedback when you need it, acting on that feedback when you get it. Those kinds of independent learning skills are not necessarily something that every classroom has cultivated pre-COVID, and so an intentionality around teaching those student agency skills is really important.

That's something a network of schools called Leap is working on in Chicago, for example. There's the opportunity to sort of emphasize relational work, and this is a real challenge, but kids need relationships with peers.

And so you've been thinking about something small like how do we use breakout rooms in Zoom so that kids are working on projects together? How do we make this an opportunity for connectedness rather than isolation for students? Some school districts are doing a better job trying to think about how do we create projects that kids are working on and keep them engaged.

It is not enough to just say we're going to do exactly what we used to do; just do it on Zoom. That is not an effective strategy for distance learning. You've got to say, how do we use these new technology tools to make learning engaging and to help support students in their social development as well as their academic development?

Sal: Couldn't agree more. A lot of what we talk about is, you know, ironically, distance learning is, for a lot of kids, their main connection to socialization right now. So it's not just about the academic standards. We've got to make some way for kids to get connected.

I have a really fascinating question from YouTube. Susanna Garcia Dominguez is saying, in light of the pandemic, what rules need to be rewritten? Is there a moment here where maybe there are some constraints, maybe some rules or regulations that exist for good reason, but maybe are slowing down a rapid response that we could loosen temporarily?

John King: Yeah, I mean, look, we certainly, I think, need to think flexibly about school schedules to make hybrid work, to make distance work, to create opportunities for students to have a healthy relationship to technology. You know, we can't expect a first grader to be in front of Zoom for eight hours, right?

So we're going to have to think differently about the schedule. We're going to have to think differently about how we engage parents. Parents are going to have to have a much larger role in a distance learning context, and so it's not— we're not going to be able to get by with just the twice-a-year parent-teacher night. We're going to need regular communication with families so that they understand how to support their kids' learning.

We're going to need to maybe start to think about a more competency-based model, where when students are ready to move on to the next level of work, we allow that to happen. I think about Northern Virginia Community College in Virginia, which this summer offered every high school junior and senior in their region the opportunity to take a college course for credit.

You know, senior year is not always well used in every high school, and so let's get students into college courses. Let's accelerate their progress where we can. And then, as I mentioned, some flexibility around staffing roles— thinking differently about how we use teachers' time. If someone's an amazing presenter of lessons, that's great, but maybe someone else is better at the one-on-one small group support for students, and let's deploy people a little bit differently. That's going to require creative scheduling and creative staff management.

Sal: I love those ideas. And you know what? One of the things that we've actually worked with Long Beach School District in Southern California—it’s this project, it's actually outside of Khan Academy called schoolhouse.world—where there's one version in the school district where any teacher can work, do group tutoring sessions or group classes with any student in the whole district.

So it seems to rhyme a little bit with what you described, but I really like what you talked about, which is a division of labor a little bit, where yeah, there's the lecture—get the best lecturer to do it—but then get all the other teachers to do the more important work of that human-to-human connection, that tutoring, that unblocking.

I'm curious, you know, I think we've been talking about ideals, which it sounds like we're very aligned on. How do you think it is going to play out over the coming year? You know, what could be the damage? What's going to need to happen, let's say, nine months from now, a year from now, when things get to a little bit more normal?

John King: Yeah, well, we're certainly going to need to make up ground. I mean, the reality is, you know this, because of the digital divide, we have school districts where a quarter of their kids didn't participate at all last spring, didn't log in. That's a disaster. McKinsey did a study recently suggesting that the average learning loss or unfinished learning would be seven months, nine months for Latino students, ten months for African-American students.

So we're going to have ground that we need to make up. That means when we get back to bricks and mortar, and hopefully move past COVID, we're going to need to think about extending the school day, extending the school year. We're going to need to think about high-dosage tutoring, which has a very strong evidence base.

There's a proposal in Congress from Senator Coons to double the AmeriCorps program so that we can match, let's say, recent college grads with students to do intensive tutoring. I think that that makes a ton of sense and is very smart. The UK and the Netherlands are also thinking about a national tutoring core kind of effort.

So we'll need that academic support; we'll also need to address some of the social-emotional impact. I think we're going to need more investment in school counselors, school social workers, mental health services for kids and for families. We've done polling at the Education Trust showing just very, very high stress levels among parents, particularly low-income parents, particularly parents of students with disabilities who are sometimes struggling to provide the supports their kids need at home.

So we're going to need to kind of make up for lost time, and some of the harm that's come from this COVID crisis.

Sal: Do you think that's doable? Let's say we were to shift from a Hoover mindset to this FDR mind that you've been talking about. Is that doable at the federal level, or does it have to happen at the state or local level?

John King: Well, we certainly need federal investment. You know, we think it's going to take at least $175 billion just to prevent cuts in school districts. But then on top of that, we need investment in this tutoring effort, extended learning time, social-emotional supports. But then we need leadership at the state level, the local level, and the school building level for folks to say it's not just enough to go back to business as usual.

We've got to make up for the impact of COVID on kids, and we've got to acknowledge that we had disparities—big disparities, big inequities—particularly around race and income before COVID. So going back to normal is not good enough. We actually need to define a more equitable, more just future, and that will require leadership at every level.

Sal: Do you think there could be any silver linings here? That because of the crisis, certain elements are getting accelerated. I mean, you talked about some good ideas that sound like good ideas in any context. You think those things will last? Do you think we'll come out of this better in some ways with the right leadership?

John King: I think that's possible. You know, some things I hope will stick. One is I think people have seen that technology can create access to opportunity that kids couldn't access before.

So, you know, we have high schools where there are very few AP classes, for example, but we know colleges look for those AP courses. We know they are often giving kids an opportunity to get college credits that make college more affordable. But now, if you're in a high-needs rural community, you didn't have AP classes in your school, but now you see through technology you can actually have a distance learning AP experience.

Hopefully, we will close the advanced coursework divide between some of our schools coming out of this. I think parents and teachers have had to collaborate in ways that I hope will stick. The parents have gotten a window into their kids' learning experience and teachers have gone into a habit of more communication with parents, at least in some districts. Hopefully, that continues.

And then I mentioned this issue of student agency. Students can do really cool stuff when given the freedom and opportunity to do it. So, as folks have had to move from maybe a teacher-centric model to a model that blends the synchronous and asynchronous, they've gotten to see that, oh, well, I can ask students to do this research project on how other countries are grappling with COVID, and kids do this amazing work.

Well, now let me shift my class so there's more student agency, more opportunity for students to define their learning goals and work with their peers to produce collaborative projects. So I think we could see some positive benefits, but first we need the kind of leadership to step up and get the resources and deal with the immediate crisis.

Sal: This is super helpful. You know, in the time we have left, we have a lot of young people who watch this, and I think it's always interesting when we get high-profile guests like yourself to just understand your journey. I mean, you started off—you actually mentioned a few things that I did not know—that it sounds like you got, you know, the early stages of your life with your parents passing away. Sounds like a pretty hard start.

I'd love to know kind of your arc. Like, you know, how did you go from there? What was the context like to eventually becoming Secretary of Education?

John King: Yeah, yeah! Well, you know, school, as I said, really saved my life. Both my parents were teachers in the New York City public schools. My mom passed when I was eight, October, fourth grade. I lived with my dad. My dad was quite sick with undiagnosed Alzheimer’s, so home was scary and lonely and unstable. But school was amazing.

I had an amazing teacher in fourth to sixth grade who did all these creative projects. We did productions of "A Midsummer Night's Dream," Shakespeare in elementary school. We went to the museum and the ballet, and he just exposed us to this whole world beyond Canarsie, Brooklyn, and that made a huge difference for me because I could be a kid in this classroom when I couldn't at home.

My dad passed when I was twelve. I moved around different schools, different family members, but it's always teachers who gave me a sense of hope and purpose. But like many young people who've experienced trauma, by the time I was in high school, I was getting in a lot of trouble, and I actually got kicked out of high school. The first U.S. Secretary of Education had been kicked out of high school.

But I was very fortunate that there were teachers and a school counselor and some family members who saw more hope and potential in me than I could see in myself. They gave me a second chance and they invested in me and helped me get my life back on track. I ended up having the opportunity to go to Harvard for college, and there I got involved in public service, volunteering, working with young people.

I always encourage high school students, college students to think about service: how can you share the blessings you have with others? So I got involved in tutoring programs, summer camps while in college, and that showed me how fulfilling it could be to try to be the kind of difference in kids' lives that teachers were for me.

Sal: And I'm curious. I mean, something you mentioned, which was fascinating—and as much as you're willing to share—what you got kicked out or almost got kicked out of high school, and then it sounds like a few years later you ended up going to Harvard. I’d love to double-click on that. I mean, as much as you're going to share, where were you? What were you—where was your mind, or if you're willing to share why you might have gotten kicked out? And then how was that turned around? Because I think so many kids are on that journey.

John King: Sure! Well, you know, I was very angry as a teenager—angry at adults. I mean, it may be irrational, but I was angry at my parents, angry at the things I went through as a kid, angry at adults in my family who I felt like didn't step in. I think now, in retrospect, I realized I didn't really know the scope of what it was like at home, and it was just my dad and me.

I remember my dad was quite sick. Our house was crazy. I had to figure out how to get food in our house, how to keep our household going. I thought someone should have stepped in, and they didn't. And so I was very angry about that—I was angry about just rules. I didn't want—I’ve been on my own since I was eight. I didn't want anyone telling me what to do.

So when I got kicked out, I thought my life was over. I thought, well, now I won't be able to go to college, I won't be able to do anything. But I'd always done well academically. I mean, the irony was I'd always been really passionate about learning. And so really, a school counselor convinced me... you know, you got to make the case that you have learned from the choices you've made, you've learned from these experiences, and you're ready to make your life different.

And so, I actually had to write two college essays: the regular essay and then there's a special essay you write if you've been kicked out of high school, and you have to explain what happened and what its impact was on you. And I was very lucky that, you know, college admissions officers were willing to take a chance on me and were willing to see that I had learned from the mistakes I'd made and wanted to be different and contribute in a different way.

Sal: Wow. And so, I mean, that's a fascinating story. I think it'll be inspiring for a lot of kids. You know, I was the lead singer of a heavy metal band, so I understand a little bit of that teenage anger. But you are even tougher circumstances. But it was, as you—I interrupted you—you were going, you know, upon graduation, how did you go from there to, you know, a career in education and eventually Secretary of Education?

John King: Yeah, yeah! So it really was, you know, the public service experience. As an undergrad at Harvard, I spent a lot of time in Boston in public housing developments where I ran after school and summer programs, and I just got passionate about helping young people, just like you, right? Just like your story.

There's something so fulfilling about helping young people learn and feel successful and feel empowered. So I loved that, and so that drew me to teaching. And so, first, I was a high school social studies teacher in the same neighborhood where I'd volunteered as an undergrad in Boston, and then I became a middle school principal.

I loved the work day-to-day with students, but I also wanted to think about how do we move policy so that we create more opportunity for kids, and that's what drew me ultimately to working at the state level and then at the federal level and having the chance to become Secretary.

It was such a privilege to be a part of the Obama administration. President Obama and Mrs. Obama are just so passionate about education and the difference schools can make in kids' lives. Mrs. Obama has this really powerful story as a first-generation college student. She still commits significant time to working on education issues, which is an initiative called Reach Higher that I'm involved in. It's about helping high school students think about their post-secondary plans.

President Obama is still involved in My Brother's Keeper, which is focused on supports for boys and young men of color. So their depth of commitment, it just was a pleasure to work with them and to be a part of the administration. And now, with the Education Trust, I have the opportunity to be an advocate and sort of join arms with other civil rights organizations, with parents, with educators, with students to demand something better.

And you know, we really have these two pandemics now. We've got the pandemic of COVID-19, but we're also having an important national conversation about the pandemic of systemic racism that has been a part of our country from the beginning. And so it's inspiring to be a part of a movement to make real change to make our society more just.

Sal: No, and your life arc is inspiring on a lot of levels. There's a really fascinating question maybe this is a good question to end on is from Facebook. Marcel Davis says, as parents, what should we be asking or demanding of local education leaders? You mentioned they have a lot more agency now. How can they drive what's right for their children?

John King: It's a great question! We have a lot of resources on this question at edtrust.org, but a few quick observations. One is to have a sense of where your kids are—to understand, you know, are they on grade level? Are they behind? Do they need additional support? How are they doing in math and reading and science and social studies?

So an understanding of where your kids are is critical. You should be alongside your child demanding real engagement in learning. It is not enough to just have a kid sit in front of Zoom for hours while folks talk at them. And so you want to be demanding that your kids are really engaged, that they're getting interesting assignments, that they're reading interesting books, that they're having conversations with their teacher and with peers.

They should be having a real learning experience. And we know that distance learning, it's challenging, but it is possible to have that real engagement. And then the third piece is that the socio-emotional dimension and the creative dimension—yes, we've got to focus on kids' academics, but they also need to have relationships with peers and teachers.

That morning meeting in elementary school, where the teacher just checks in with every kid and they get to see their peers, that can, for some kids, be the best part of the day. So we have to make sure those social-emotional supports are in place. We have to make sure there's creative time.

We still need the arts, and we can still do the arts through distance. We can still create opportunities for students to paint, to draw, to make music, to make videos of their own, right? We should be cultivating that creative side, even as we try to grapple with making distance learning work.

So I hope that parents are really pushing their school districts to deliver, especially in communities that have been underserved. We all have a moral responsibility to make sure that every kid gets a high-quality education, regardless of race, regardless of income, regardless of zip code.

Sal: No, couldn't agree more. Well, thank you so much for joining for this conversation. I hope this is the first of many conversations. I hope we can also collaborate on the Ed Trust, Khan Academy side of things, but this is a real honor. Thank you so much!

John King: Thanks for the conversation! Thanks for all you're doing.

Sal: Awesome! Well, thanks everyone for joining us. As you see, another fascinating conversation. The time always goes by much faster than I expected to do when we're enthralled and getting some really interesting wisdom. But with that, I encourage everyone to stay safe.

Reminder as the school year is starting up, go to Khan Academy. We have get-ready-for-grade-level courses, as Secretary King had alluded to. These are ways to identify where your kids are and if they're ready for grade level, if they need to fill in some gaps. They can obviously learn at their own pace on Khan Academy.

I also encourage folks to go to schoolhouse.world, which is the side project that I'm doing with a ton of volunteers. Ironically, you know, we heard Secretary King talk about how important tutoring can be. Ironically, on schoolhouse.world, we have a lot of really great tutors who are waiting to tutor you or your children or someone else's children, I guess, as well.

So go there—there's a lot of capacity for what I think could be really compelling experiences for a lot of young people, where not only will you get more support above and beyond what you already get from Khan Academy, but you can also get some interaction with folks really around the world, which I think is pretty cool in a safe environment.

So thanks everyone for joining, and I'll see you, I believe, in a day or two, where we're going to do an ask me anything. Oh, sorry, no, this is Wednesday. Tomorrow, we're going to have Representative Karen Bass. Super exciting! So please join us for that tomorrow.

See everyone later!