Homeroom with Sal & US Sec. of Education, Dr. Miguel Cardona - Thursday, April 29

Hi everyone, Sal Khan here from Khan Academy. Welcome to the Homeroom live stream. We're very excited to have a conversation with U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona today. But before we jump into that conversation, I will remind you a few of my typical reminders.

First of all, Khan Academy is a not-for-profit organization. We can only exist through donations from folks like yourself. So if you're in a position to do so, please go to khanacademy.org/donate. I also want to make a special shout-out to several organizations that have stepped up, especially during the pandemic. Many of y'all know that our traffic tripled a year ago when we went to the pandemic. A lot of folks have been leaning on us. Our server costs went up, and so special thanks to Bank of America, AT&T, google.org, Novartis, Fastly, General Motors, and many other supporters of Khan Academy for stepping up and making sure that we're in a position to support millions, tens of millions of learners around the world. So thank you for that.

I also want to remind folks that there is a version of this live stream in podcast form wherever you get your podcasts: Homeroom with Sal, the podcast. So please check that out. So with that, I am very excited to introduce Dr. Miguel Cardona, U.S. Secretary of Education. Secretary Cardona, thank you for joining us.

Secretary Cardona: Hey, happy to be here in Homeroom! Happy to be here.

Sal Khan: So maybe a great place for folks to start. I think people know Secretary of Education, federal government, it's the most senior education leader in the country. But from your vantage point, what do you see as the role, the job, the potential of U.S. Secretary of Education?

Secretary Cardona: You know, supporting kids, supporting students from pre-K to higher education really, it's really making sure. I'd like to think this role really needs to be the greatest child advocate in the country to make sure that our education program is meeting the needs of all of our students, the diverse needs of our students, and making sure that we're letting education be that great equalizer that it was for me.

Sal Khan: And how do you view that? Do you view it as advocacy? What are the levers at your disposal? The U.S. famously has a very federated system in education— a lot of the resources are happening at the state and the local government. Where does your role fit in in the whole ecosystem?

Secretary Cardona: Sure. So, you know, working with states, working with local districts to help support them right now as we recover from this pandemic, funding is...there's more funding coming from the federal government. But, you know, making sure that we're using this position to support, to elevate best practices, to use the position as a bully pulpit around those things that we know work for kids and those things that we should be doing in education. But also a policy level too, making sure that we're advocating and also protecting the rights of students who deserve a free and appropriate public education throughout our country.

Sal Khan: I definitely want to get into some of those policy questions, and I think it's an exciting time to be in education generally. I'm imagining a very exciting time to be Secretary of Education. There's so much to do. There's never been more energy, I think, behind education, potentially more funding behind education, is what we're starting to see. But before we jump into that, I want to remind everyone you can ask your questions on YouTube and Facebook. I'll try to surface as many of the questions as we can to Secretary Cardona. But I'd like to know a little bit about your life journey. I don't think a lot of kids wake up in the morning when they're, you know, seven years old and say, “I will be U.S. Secretary of Education in 2021.” So what was that pathway? What got you here?

Secretary Cardona: Listen, I grew up, my parents came from Puerto Rico when they were in their teens. And, you know, my grandparents moved to for a better life. You know, my grandfather cut sugar cane in Puerto Rico, and you know the money was paying a little bit better in Hartford, Connecticut where he cut tobacco. So he settled in Meriden. He left a beautiful paradise island over there, palm trees and beaches, to go live on the fourth floor of apartment projects in a place where he didn't know the language, didn't know the culture, but he did that so that he could provide for his family. My parents were born, they lived in that same community. Early on, Sal, I was modeled service to community, right? And the schools gave me so much, so I ended up becoming an educator. But service to the community was really what I wanted to do for my life, and it just took me from a classroom teacher, fourth-grade teacher, to Secretary of Education. But at the end of the day, it's still service.

Sal Khan: And did you fill in the blanks a little bit? Because you said, you know, service, classroom teacher, Secretary of Education. But how does that happen? What did you—did you go into administration? What was that journey like?

Secretary Cardona: I went to a technical high school because, you know, we had a big family in Meriden, and my eldest cousin went to a technical high school. So all the little cousins followed, you know, like little ducks crossing the road. It was a great experience. I learned automotive technology for four years, and I had a teacher that said, “You know, Miguel, you should consider teaching.” So I wanted to go become an art teacher. I went to college thinking I was going to become an art teacher. I love the arts. And again, teaching is an extension of service, right? So I went into college, but I gravitated toward elementary education. I became a fourth-grade teacher. I loved that role. I never wanted to leave the classroom, but I got asked and pushed into administration by the superintendent at the time. Then I became an elementary school principal for ten years. Loved that role, really engaged with families. I served students with disabilities. I served students that were learning English as a second language. We had children with developmental delays. We had children with multiple handicaps. It was a really wonderful learning experience for me. I became an assistant superintendent in that district. I did a little work teaching at the college level, and then the governor of Connecticut called for me to serve as commissioner of education. I enjoyed that role. I'm really passionate about addressing inequities in education. Then the pandemic hit. We worked really hard to try to safely reopen schools in Connecticut, and that work, and you know that passion got me a call from the president of the United States. So now I'm fortunate to be serving as Secretary of Education.

Sal Khan: You know, I definitely want to get into what you hope to do in this role now and some of the policy questions. But I want to double-click again on this. You know, just talking to you, I can sense some of your energy and the passion for what you do, so it's not surprising. But what do you think it was? What do you think it was about that teacher that said that maybe you should become a teacher? What did they see in you? And then what do you think other folks have seen in you or you saw in yourself that allowed you to go on this very, very impressive journey?

Secretary Cardona: You know what's special about me? That there's nothing special about me. I represent every student in the classroom that, you know, just wants to do well and wants to serve. And I had a teacher who realized that I was using my artwork to communicate my values. So there was a mural that I did, Sal. Back then, you know, it was like late 80s, early 90s, and I did a mural that said, “There's only one race: the human race.” I had in that mural all these different characters from different backgrounds and different cultural traditions, different dress. The teacher said, “You know, why don't you make that a mural in the cafeteria?” So she saw that I was using my art to communicate my values, and you know, so she gave me that opportunity. That really made me feel like, "Wow, I could do this," and it's important to name those folks by name. So Linda Ransom was that teacher who saw that in me and said, “Why don't you consider a career in education?” And that's what did it. So it was really a teacher seeing something in me that I can communicate through the arts, and that's all it took. I was hooked after that.

Sal Khan: No, I'm so glad you highlighted it in that way because it's very easy to say, “What does the governor see in you?” or “What did a school leader see in you?” But you're so right. It's those teachers early on in your life that, when you might—I know for me— and you're right, it's important to name them. Octavio Hernandez, my algebra teacher, and he was our mentor for the math club. I was a little bit of a math nerd. Alright, Dr. Santania, who was a professor at UNO, and I didn't have a computer at home, and he let me use his computers while I was doing some dual enrollment things in high school. So you're absolutely right. It's those teachers that make all the difference in the world.

You know, and all sorts of questions are coming in. So I want to make sure I have time to get to all these questions. But I do want to—now that you are in this role and it's still the first few months of your tenure here—what are your hopes and fears? What are you hoping, and if we look back on this in ten years, that, like, yes we were able to do X, Y, and Z. And what are your fears on top of that?

Secretary Cardona: You know, 59 days to be exact. But we hit the ground running, and we're going to continue running. I know that there's a finite window to serve as Secretary of Education, and there's such need. Since we've been collecting data, there have been gaps in outcomes for students, and you know we have to make sure that we're going to address that. I don't think there's ever been a time in the history of our education system where we've been as close to a reset button as we are now. So yes, you know the pandemic really did a number on our country. And, you know, it’s going to take time to reel in from that. But I want to seize this opportunity to rethink some of those things that we've been doing that are maybe not best for kids or maybe really just reimagine how we can reopen our doors, not only physically and make sure the lights are on, but just rethink how we're educating our students and how we're partnering with families and how we're listening to students in this process of reopening and recovering.

Sal Khan: Are there certain areas that you are particularly excited about? You're right, you know, with a pandemic in education. You know, I've been in this game for a little while as well, and I've never seen so much energy behind education because it's a bit of a reboot, reset, because of the pandemic. But where do you see as the opportunities, and where do you see the risks right now?

Secretary Cardona: Sure, tremendous opportunities. You know, I'm talking to an innovative genius here, right? I remember hearing your name in a cafeteria at Hanover school over 10, 12 years ago, where a teacher said, “Hey, check out these videos,” and look at it now. Khan Academy is a topic at the dinner table in most houses where I've been an educator. So how do we allow innovation to really drive where we're going? How do we kind of, you know, revisit those things that are sacred cows that maybe are not in the best interest of students?

When we’re looking at time in seats, how we utilize technology, how we use blended learning—you know, blended learning is something that happened overnight and we're just getting better. How we’re closing the digital divide to make sure we have greater access to learning so that I'm not limited to the experiences that I have in my community or in my schoolhouse, you know? Those are some areas of innovation.

We can have students connecting with students across the country, just like I'm connecting with you. Some of the fears—some of the fears—so while we're pleased to see that about 80 percent of the pre-K-8 schools have some form of in-person learning at this point, we know that the data is disproportionate by race. We know that Black and Brown students and Asian students are less likely to go into school, even if that option is there. So what we've seen happen in this past year is a gross exacerbation of opportunities and outcomes for our students based on not only race but also where they live, right? So rural communities have been impacted significantly based on the fact that the internet connection maybe isn't as strong. So we have a lot of work to do there, and my fear is that we don't maintain the level of urgency that we need to really reshape where we're going. That would be my greatest fear—that our urgency dissipates over time.

Sal Khan: Yeah, no, completely understand that last notion. You know, there's a group of, just through the work we do at Khan Academy, of superintendents and state commissioners—your old job—that we've connected with. I even get them together on a Zoom every other Friday now to discuss some of these topics, and they're all feeling exactly what you're feeling. This is an unusual moment. The pandemic has been incredibly hard, especially on some of the communities that frankly were already in need of some extra support because of various contexts pre-pandemic. And now there's a unique opportunity to hopefully solve the problems that the pandemic introduced, but also move ahead, and there's incredible, you know, federal dollars coming our way. There's the third round of stimulus that had a lot of dollars that are coming from the federal government, and I know y’all are proposing more that I want to talk about. Where do you see—have you seen examples? Are there things in the back of y’all’s mind that you see like, “You know, that's going to be a really good use of these funds”? I think it averages $800 or $900 per student in America, and in certain areas it might be as much as $2,000 or $3,000, so it's significant resources for the next three years.

Secretary Cardona: You know, I have to start with the social-emotional well-being of students. What I'm finding is that, you know, we are still in the middle of a pandemic. We can't think that just because the lights are on and the hallways are clean and the doorknobs have been wiped down that we can go back to business as usual. Many of our students have experienced a lot of loss, whether it's loss of loved ones or loss of jobs or their parents being underemployed now or having to change and not seeing loved ones for a long period of time. So we have to make sure that when we reopen schools, we're ready and prepared to meet our students where they are and provide them that support that they need to be emotionally safe so that bandwidth for learning can grow.

So that's one of the areas where I see that's working. Another area that I'm noticing with the help is that in those places where there's intentional collaboration, right? So in collaboration that's deeper than it was prior to the pandemic—those are the places that are reopening quicker and more safely and allowing for innovation to take root earlier.

So it's really some of those underlying things like that social-emotional well-being of our students and our educators, but also making sure that we reorganize so that we're more responsive to the needs of the community. That's how we're going to get students back in, and that's how we're going to get families to re-engage. So, funds for educators to help lower class sizes, especially for those students that were hit hardest by the pandemic and maybe haven't been in a schoolhouse for over a year. More social workers, more school counselors, better tools for teachers, better training for teachers. You know, we keep asking teachers to do more and more and more. We need to make sure we embed professional learning opportunities in a creative way too. It can't be just packing more into those three PD days that they get. So we really need to rethink those things.

But those states that are using the funds to provide social-emotional support, good after-school programming that are hands-on, good summer learning opportunities for students to get out into the community and do camp-like activities and learn with their hands and discovery learning—those are the places that are finding the most success with reopening. But those are the ones that are really utilizing their funds to address the needs of the students.

Sal Khan: You know, I love that answer because I think in education, because the things we measure are often things like test scores in reading or math, we can become very obsessed with test scores. And it is, at least in my opinion, important to measure these things to understand where you are. But when we face a situation like this, it's very tempting to immediately get into how do we get back, fill in the gaps, fill in the academic gaps. But to your point—and I've seen this as a father, and we've seen this in the work at Khan Academy—if you don't have, if the kids aren't in the right place from a social-emotional point of view, if there isn't the right collaboration amongst the adults, there's not the right training amongst the adults, it doesn't matter what tools you provide. It doesn't matter what curricula you provide; you're not going to get the same outcomes. And the other way around, if you do have good social-emotional, if you do have good collaboration, it also does not matter what kind of curricula you have. You'll probably have good outcomes. So I think that's a very powerful notion.

Secretary Cardona: Absolutely! We have to start with where the students are, where their children are. You know, someone once told me when I was student teaching—she was a teacher for students with disabilities—she said, “Miguel, don't forget you teach children, not curriculum. You teach kids, not curriculum.” And that stuck with me. We need to start with where the students are, and right now they need to feel a safe school environment. They need to have the relationships—the R before the reading, writing, arithmetic. I think it can be done together, but we cannot skip past that social-emotional well-being of our students, but also our staff.

Sal Khan: That makes a ton of sense. And then, you know, one extra layer, as you know, for Khan Academy to do its work, there needs to be some level of connectivity. Devices, obviously it's not just Khan Academy. It opens up a whole new world. There's another not-for-profit effort spawned in reaction to the pandemic around free tutoring called schoolhouse.world. Once again, kids are not going to access things like this unless they have access. How are you thinking about the digital divide? I know the American Rescue Package had several billions of dollars for it. How confident are you that we're gonna crack that nut?

Secretary Cardona: I'm very confident! Listen, the digital divide should be a thing that's in our rearview mirror soon. Yes, it's going to take bold actions, but the bold funding is there, and the direction is there. And the guidance is that we have a president that gets it. So let's go! Let's close the digital divide. We all know the laptop is the new pencil, so let's move forward and let's open the doors for students. That's a basic level of equity that we need to provide. I know states and communities are thinking about it. That thinking has been accelerated with the pandemic. The tools are there, the resources are there. Let’s just get it done, and let's talk about quality instruction, recognizing that that's a tool to get to good educational opportunities.

So I really feel strongly. In Connecticut, one of the things we did is we prioritized, with the governor's leadership and the State Department of Education's leadership, we prioritized closing that digital divide because we know that, you know, it's not only about getting the computer up and the internet access; it's also about getting quality content on the other side of that screen. That's critically important. That's how gaps are exacerbated when we don't have quality content. So the first step is getting a device, good connectivity, and then quality content. Those three things are important.

Sal Khan: It makes a ton of sense. And I want to get to everyone's questions, but I have so many myself, so I'm going to indulge myself. You know, I’ve actually never seen any administration—and I think the pandemic is part of it—but I've never seen anyone with as bold, tangible plans around education as we're starting to see on the American Families Plan. And I’m reading this: you know, $200 billion for free universal preschool, $109 billion for free community college, $80 billion for Pell Grants. And that's not the complete list, but that's a lot of dollars. You know, $200 billion for free universal preschool for three and four-year-olds. I think there's about 10 or 11 million three and four-year-olds in the country. That comes out to, if I'm doing the math right, something like $20,000 per student to give them that pre-K. And as a father of young children, I appreciate more than anyone how much that creates an advantage or support for kids. We've invested in it at Khan Academy Kids. But how hopeful are you that these things are going to pass? And then how do you see them getting implemented? Because there are obviously a lot of preschools, but we don't have a public preschool infrastructure. How do you see that money flowing down?

Secretary Cardona: Right. So, you know, first and foremost, those are technical strategies that are being recommended by a president who gets what we need to do, who gets that education is the foundation of this country—that education is the best economic driver not only for our country but for these individuals. We know that students are more likely to graduate if they have pre-K experiences and more likely to take higher-level courses, honors courses. We know that college graduates, community college graduates, boost their earning potential by 21%. Everyone wins here! So we have a president that gets it, the funds are aimed at providing additional four years of school for the students to give them a leg up. As he said last night, we are competing with the world, and he gets that we have to be bold to invest in our students.

I mean, where better can we invest, right, in our children across the country to make sure that they have the opportunity to succeed in life and that our country can continue to grow? I am confident that there's going to be support behind this, and I do believe that you're right—the implementation matters. But educators have shown this past year that they could rise to the challenge and that they're prepared to put the students first when making decisions. We need to act with the same level of urgency that our president has towards supporting children, and we're gonna get it done. We're gonna get it done!

Sal Khan: Yeah, no, absolutely. It's very inspiring. I have a bunch of questions coming in. These are actually from two colleagues of mine. One is Nick Breen on Facebook, who says, “Will the two years of free community college aspect of the plan be available to all fields of study?” And Kristyn Deterbo, who's actually Khan Academy's chief learning officer, is asking, “We continue to see students entering community colleges without the reading, writing, and math skills they need to be successful. Often these students get stuck in developmental math programs. How do we support these?” So I kind of view those as, you know, two sides of the same coin.

Secretary Cardona: Fantastic questions! And I think, you know, they do connect, right? So we know that our students that when they go to college and they're still not reading at grade level that there's work that has to be done at the K-12 level. So I'm really hopeful that the Rescue Plan and the CARES plan really—and then the budget that the president is putting forward—supports strong K-12, pre-K-12 learning and high standards for all students across the country so we don't have that issue. The community college connection to the high schools—we have to make sure that those programs, while the details of what programs would be accepted under that...what I want to see, Sal, is a better connection between our middle school, high school, and two-year colleges so that we provide students with viable pathways into the workforce in careers that exist now, careers that will exist five years from now. So that these students can take advantage of those two years and really go into the workforce or continue to a four-year program and continue to get their education.

Those connections between the community college and our middle and high schools is one of the goals for me. There has to be clearer through lines so more students take advantage of it, and they lead to careers that these students want to do that are needed now.

Sal Khan: I couldn't agree more. You know, one of the questions that I always wonder—and this goes off for Christian's question—is you know the stats right now: 65-70% of all kids who show up at community college, they don't even place into college algebra. They place into remedial math, which is essentially pre-algebra, sixth or seventh-grade mathematics. And we also know that college algebra, one, when you don't place into it, is a huge signal that you're not going to graduate and you're going to have debt. And that college algebra itself is a huge gating factor for a lot of kids, even though it really should have been taught in ninth or tenth grade. Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 are essentially college algebra. I'm fascinated, and I'd love your advice at Khan Academy and this free tutoring platform, schoolhouse.world. We're creating how it can help teachers and students get maybe ways we could partner with universities to get college algebra credit before they even leave high school, so college algebra should just be off the table, so it shouldn't be a gating factor anymore.

Secretary Cardona: You know, one of the things we learn in this pandemic is we have to think outside the box. So we need to really make sure that we're providing opportunities for students to learn these things, and it doesn't have to be during the regular school day. We could be creative. But I want to take it back a little bit further. They're not accessing those classes or not passing those classes in eighth or ninth grade because maybe in third grade they were at a first-grade reading level, and maybe in first grade they were still learning their letters. So this universal pre-K and early childhood focus that the president is providing here will help alleviate some of those issues as well.

So yes, we have to get creative for those students that are underserved and that we haven't gotten to that point where they're passing those courses. But when we have a strong foundation in early childhood education, it's less likely that that pattern is going to continue. So I'm really pleased with that focus from President Biden, and I know that if implemented well, those issues are going to start going away because we're going to better prepare our students early, and the gaps that we see when our three, four, and five-year-olds come in are going to be diminished when we have strong programs at the early childhood level.

Sal Khan: It's all connected. And I think I could predict what you might say, but what's your view on the student debt crisis? I didn't see that. I mean, it's implicitly addressed in some of the things like free community college and more Pell Grants, but we know it's over a trillion dollars of debt. I have even people in my family who are in their 40s who are still paying off debt or maybe even, in some cases, given up. How can we—what can we do there that can help unlock a lot of folks?

Secretary Cardona: That's a major issue. And you know, it's a two-prong approach. The first prong is making sure we can do what we can to support students that are in debt now, and we're having conversations about what that might look like. But the second step too that I don't think gets discussed as much, but we really need to focus on, is ensuring that it doesn't happen again—that we have public service loan forgiveness that actually works. You know, we've had a system that rejects like 98% of the applicants—that's unacceptable! We have to do borrower defense better. We have to make sure that our colleges are providing a good return on investment for these learners that are coming in, especially these first-gen students.

You know, I read a fact recently that some borrowers are in greater debt 12 years later because they were never able to knock down the principle. So we have to fix that. We have to make sure we have pathways to college that are affordable so more students take advantage of that. So it's a two-prong approach. Yes, we're going to look at potential loan forgiveness conversation and making sure that we're supporting those who are in major debt. But we're also going to make sure that we're stopping the bleeding by promoting good practices that will alleviate some of this debt accumulation that we see in our students.

Sal Khan: And it seems like even our bankruptcy laws are a little bit strange. It's easier to cancel your debt when you max out a credit card or you run a business into the ground than if you're not able to cover all of your student debt. There should be a penalty, which is bankruptcy; your credit score gets...but at least there's a way; that's why bankruptcy exists—to reboot.

Secretary Cardona: Well, folks who are on board that have a student-centered approach to the policies that we're making and ensuring that we're not in this position again in five years—absolutely! I'm looking forward to having more work done on this issue.

Sal Khan: No, I mean, it's very inspiring to hear that. You know, I know we're almost out of time; you're super busy. First of all, let me just say I consider what we're doing at Khan Academy, what we're trying to do at schoolhouse.world, these are in service to hopefully the same mission and vision. So, you know, consider us at your service of how we can move the dial for learners and teachers and parents in America. But I'd love for you to finish up with any messages you have. We have a lot of teachers, a lot of parents, a lot of children watching right now.

Secretary Cardona: Thank you very much, and thanks for the invite. It was nice to be—this is a long homeroom. Usually homeroom is about 10 minutes, so this is nice that we had a 30-minute homeroom. But you know, my message is, first of all, thank you, Sal, for everything that you've done in education and supporting educators, supporting students across the country. Really appreciated. My own children—I have a 14-year-old and a 16-year-old—who benefit from Khan Academy. I just want to say thank you for what you've done. But to the educators and the families, I want to say thank you for what you've done this past year. But we have an opportunity to hit the reset button and really elevate our practices and make sure that we're supporting our educators, supporting our students in different ways so that all students have access to a quality education. You know, and we're going to do it together. One thing that I learned is that intentional collaboration is how we're going to move ahead as a country. So I look forward to working with you, Sal, with the families, with educators, to make sure we can do the very best for all the students across the country. Again, thanks for letting me be on.

Sal Khan: Well, Secretary Cardona, this was a real honor. And I'll say it again, your energy—you're only 59 days in—but your energy and your background and your experience gives me very high hopes for what we're, as a country, going to be able to accomplish together. So thank you so much for your service here.

Secretary Cardona: Alright, take care!

Sal Khan: Well, thanks everyone for joining. Hopefully, you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. As I always say, these conversations go far faster than time flies when you're having fun. I wish we could have spoken for another few hours, but I have hopes that, you know, I've never seen more energy at the federal level behind education. Part of it's from the pandemic; part of it is it feels like just where the headspace is right now. And, you know, I think there's an opportunity that all collectively that we can imagine a really exciting world together. So thanks everyone for joining, and I look forward to seeing you in future Homerooms.