Fundraising Panel at Female Founders Conference 2014

Okay everyone, we're going to now have a slightly different format for the next, uh, 30 minutes. We're going to have a discussion amongst these four YC female founders about their fundraising experiences. Um, so hopefully there will be lots of interesting stories for you all to listen to.

Just a quick show of hands first: how many of you have been involved in the fundraising for your companies? Oh, lots of you. Okay, so you will probably identify with a lot of what's going on, and for the others who are going to be starting to fundraise, well, to be forewarned is to be forearmed.

Okay, so first of all, I'll introduce myself and then ask each one of these, uh, lovely ladies to introduce themselves as well. So I am Kirsty Nathu. Um, I'm a partner at YC and I'm also the COO there, so I look after all the finance side of things. Um, and work with all the companies to help them get to the point where they can then start fundraising from other investors.

So take it away.

Hi, my name is Jamie Wong. I am the founder and CEO of Viable. Uh, we were YC summer 2012. Um, we are a marketplace for travel experiences. After we raised a little bit of money before YC, um, got the YC funding, and then after demo day raised, uh, 1.7, so a total of $2.1 million, um, in Angel and small VCs.

Hi, I'm Danielle Moral. I'm the CEO and co-founder of Mattermark, was in Jamie's batch actually as a completely different company called Refle. We raised about a million dollars then, and then when we relaunched the company as something new, raised another 500,000. We're building tools to let people source deals. So if you think about, um, a sale that you want to close or an investment you want to make, or a company you want to partner with, or maybe buy, right now the way people do that is they use Google in a spreadsheet. So we want to organize the world's business information so people can do those deals much more efficiently.

My name is Anne Johnson. I am the founder and CEO of Inana. We are a stealth big data company. Um, we raised an angel round and a series A, and we were in Y Combinator last winter.

And I'm Michelle Crosby. I'm the CEO and founder of Weor, and we are transforming divorce through a high-tech and high-touch approach. Seventy-six percent of divorces are filed by females, so I've left a stack of cards out there for this side of the [laughter] room, and we were part of the winter batch last year at YC, and we raised an angel VC round of about $2 million in about two weeks.

Okay, so let's get straight into it. So what did you learn during the fundraising process that you really wish you'd known at the start instead of the end?

So let's start with Danielle.

So I think PG actually told me all these really smart things and I didn't really listen at first. Um, and so it was funny because one of the things that I relearned, I would say, was, um, you know, they said don't worry about taking money from these big VC firms when you're starting out. Go find angel investors, people who have their own wealth or they've had their own experiences, and let them be the first to invest in you. If you go and you try to reach out to VCs right away, it's probably going to be a waste of your time because you're just so small and that's not really what they focus on.

And so I was so enamored by finally being a founder, getting to talk to all these people, that I was like, whatever, I'm going to go be different, and I'm going to just raise from them anyway. And so, um, it turned out that it was a huge waste of time. I mean, long-term it was great because we had these relationships, but that's not the point. The point is all that time that I spent talking to them I could have spent talking to customers.

It kind of came back around in a funny way though. Um, so I finally realized this wasn't working and I wasn't raising. And, um, an associate from a really large firm, I'd actually never heard of, reached out. So, I was like, and he didn't say he wanted to talk about the company, he said he wanted just moved here and could we help him like get to know people.

And I hadn't moved here from somewhere else, so I have a lot of empathy for that, so I went out to lunch with him. And he was like, yeah, you know, this firm, it's Nea, it's Shield Tile. He ended up investing. So, I just say it, I was like, no, you're not, you don't work for one of the biggest VC firms, you're a total liar. I was just like, whatever, like I don't believe you.

And he was like, okay, and so we like had lunch and then a couple weeks later he emailed me, and I'd looked them up at this point and realized that it was pretty stupid, um, which is very funny.

And, um, he was like, can we come to the house? We want to invest. And I was like, you know, PG said not to talk to these people, I keep breaking this rule, and it's not working, so maybe I'll just say no.

So, I no, like that's, I just one-word email, it's like, we'll come to the house, like it'll be 20 minutes, like we'll make a decision in 24 hours. And I'm like, you come to the house? No, no, no. And then eventually I capitulated and they came to the house and they actually did invest. But, um, it was a lot of time spent, and ultimately we work with VCs now, but early on the investors that helped us the most were definitely the angels, so big lesson learned there.

Um, and the dance was funny, but at the same time, I probably could have been talking to customers.

Uh, to her point, the reason, uh, why it sucks when you waste time doing something, uh, that doesn't work out is because, uh, when it's just a few founders, uh, you can't work on your product while you're fundraising. And it just like stops and you go out and you talk to all the, you talk, you go out and talk to all the VCs and you're like telling them how awesome your product is and how fast you can move, and you're not actually doing anything, and it, um, feels bad.

Um, but the thing that I found, found, uh, that I did wrong at first was, uh, we're a big data startup and there's a lot of big data startups. And so, uh, we were kind of, we had such this broad vision and everyone seemed like a competitor and, uh, we're like, okay, well we won't talk to any VCs who are, you know, invested in any of these competitors, we won't talk to any firms that are invested in these competitors, and, uh, so we went, we talked to people who weren't invested in big data, and those people didn't care about big data.

Uh, they, um, they didn't know anything about it, they had no way of validating if what we were doing was interesting. Um, they, you know, they just, they didn't have money set aside. They're just like, yeah, you know, it wasn't working, and so we're like, okay, let's change strategy and we started talking to people who were the biggest investors in big data, and it was like, it was amazing. Those people, you know, they knew the landscape, they understood what we were doing and why it was cool and why it was different.

Uh, they were able to call references on us, uh, of people who actually knew what they were talking about and, um, their contacts were the same as ours and it was just, it was wonderful, it worked out much better, we got a lot more excitement.

Um, so, uh, I'm a very open person and so when I meet VCs my first instinct is to tell them everything about my company, and I think that was one of my, uh, my reasons for not wanting to talk to people who are invested in competitors because I can't, uh, I can't keep secrets very well.

And, um, and, but what I found was that investors actually really like it when you ask questions and, uh, and they don't actually want to sit there and listen to you blabber on. And, uh, they're very proud of, uh, what they believe makes them differentiated as a VC. They all, uh, you know, they all have different specialties, and they all have different points of view and investing philosophies.

And we were at Y Combinator and one of the cool things, uh, that you get to do at Y Combinator is they set up, um, meetings with you, uh, with, uh, investors, and SV Angel was in the office that day, and, um, we were talking to the representative from SV Angel, and he had just gone and gotten a piece of pizza, and he was expecting to sit and eat his lunch quietly while he heard us talk about ourselves.

And, um, I didn't do that. I asked him, I'm like, so you know, tell me about SV Angel, tell me about, you know, what you guys are doing and why you invest in these companies, and, you know, and what we get, uh, if we, you know, choose you as an angel investor. What can you give back to the company other than just money?

And he kept eating the piece of pizza but he talked while he did it. And so now he is forever like the pizza guy because he's actually really good at talking with his mouth full. And so he, um, so we got lots of, uh, he just told us all about about SV Angel. In the end, we didn't have very much time to talk about our company, but I got an email from him the next day saying he wanted to invest, and, uh, and he actually called out the fact he's like you guys are the only ones who asked us a whole bunch of questions, we were really impressed, clearly you know what you're talking about.

Um, and, and the thing, and the also thing about, uh, competitive, uh, being concerned about competition is that they don't care as much about you as you care about them. Like they've got, you know, their business plan and they're going through with it and like, and you know hearing what some like unfunded startup is saying, uh, they just, they really just don't care.

And like, um, if you think even, you know, I believe that our idea was like the best and if they just heard my idea that they would all of a sudden, you know, pivot into my idea, but it's not actually true. And, uh, and so, you know, in the second or third meeting with the VC when you do have to really open up, um, it's not, it's not as dangerous as you might think.

So on foreshadowing a lot of what's already been said, I think one of the surprising factors was you get so excited and so focused to just start talking about your company that you forget to build rapport with people and forget that you actually are going to be building a long-time relationship with these investors.

So by the time I got into it and started recognizing the patterns and, um, even my, I needed the confidence, and so what I did was come up with a three-part structure and I divided, no matter how long the investors would give me to talk to them, every meeting went into three parts. The first part was a bromance.

Um, 99% of the investors you meet with will be male, learn something about them, get them talking about themselves because you want to like them at the end of the day. Um, and that really helps get the conversation going back and forth. It takes the pressure off, it gives you a little time to catch your breath, take the nerves off.

The second part was moving into your pitch, now's your chance. Um, the one fun fact I did know is that every two minutes our brains automatically turn off, so you have to do something to re-engage them. So try and build in those highlights every two minutes, um, otherwise you get that glazed over effect and challenge them, ask them a question, did you, and they'll start re-engaging.

Um, and the last section was the close. Don't ever leave a meeting without a next step. You're already holding a lot of nervous energy, so when you're fundraising, always close it with something. Um, you know, how do you see fitting in with our company? If they don't have an answer, you know, that's probably an indirect no.

Um, if they have an answer and they want to think about it put a hard stop on it, you know, okay, I'll hold the spot for you till Tuesday, that way you have a, um, next step for yourself. Um, so the most surprising thing for me, I think, was we raised money right after Y Combinator, right after demo day, so we sort of had this externally imposed structure and timeline.

Um, I wasn't going to come here and pitch and then not talk to investors or do IC and not talk to investors, that was ridiculous. So I kind of had to, um, had I waited till I felt ready to fundraise or ready to meet with investors, I still would not be funded today.

Um, because you never feel ready, you never want to, it's, I mean, kind of a shitty experience because it's exhausting. Um, you're always repeating the same story over and over, you have to keep track of a million things in spreadsheets, you're away from product, you're away from customers.

Um, I don't really think it's fun, uh, or enjoyable or something you would seek out, it's really a means to an end. So, um, realizing I wasn't the only one who felt that way and seeing friends go out for series A, B, C, all the way through, you know, talking with banks and IPO, um, no one ever really feels ready or legitimized yet, it's a complete cart-before-the-horse situation, and I think it's inherently so.

That's why you need money, that's why you're taking the step of fundraising, um, and so just embracing that and not waiting for that feeling of like this is it, I feel totally ready, today is the day I want to go out and fundraise, you're just not going to have that feeling.

And really realizing no, today is the day I'm going to go out and take one for the team for my company so that we can grow this and, um, build out this vision. So realizing that a little bit after the fact I think was really empowering and kind of gave me a structure to use moving forward when I don't have YC telling me you better raise money right now.

Great! So, following on from that, I guess what did you find, um, you know, what did you find the most difficult about the fundraising process and also what did you find easy about the process?

So let's start with Anne.

I didn't find anything easy. Um, but weirdly enough the hardest part for us, we used the strategy of, um, setting a date for, uh, to take term sheets. And, um, so the trick about setting a date is you have to get a whole bunch of people at their peak excitement right at that date.

And so, uh, so we did groundwork for a couple weeks and then two weeks we spent, you know, on Sand Hill Road and driving back and forth, uh, taking meetings with everyone, um, trying to keep everyone excited. Um, and in the end there were people we wanted to talk to that we didn't get a chance to talk to, it was triage at the end.

We're like okay these people seem excited, let's like keep these people excited, and, uh, and it worked out well for us, um, but it was definitely a juggling act. And now as, um, I consider raising as I'm considering raising again, um, it's the same thing over and over again: don't get them too excited until I'm ready for them to be excited.

And, uh, yeah, and then do it on the one day.

Michelle, let’s see.

I think the hardest part was the time commitment. We've already referenced it, um, and that's why I recommend just keeping that time period short. If you're fundraising, focus on fundraising and get it over with quickly, um, because you do have companies to build.

Um, and the other hardest part is not everyone's going to get what you do, so you do get a lot of rejection. Um, we always tried to reframe that, and every time you always get good questions as you go through, um, but those early nos, I mean, hit those early nos early and get them out of the way.

Um, because you don't want someone sitting on the fence, that's, um, becomes a big investor, you want them really believing in what you do. Um, and that also leads to what becomes easier is the more you get out there and talk to people, the more you quickly learn, you know, who to spend time with and who to move quickly past.

Jamie?

Um, I think the hardest part was realizing it’s a lot more work than it maybe seems from the outside or, um, it's kind of like when you're cleaning out your closet or trying to pack up to move and you feel like okay, I'm going to need maybe 20 boxes and it turns out you really need like 200 ‘cause there's so much more crap than you ever thought you owned.

And fundraising is a little bit like that where you think, okay, it'll be about this amount of time, um, it's going to take, you know, me away for this long, it's going to take this much effort, it's going to take this many hours and meetings, and it's always just a lot more because someone's lawyer's out of town or there's one little thing to pick or there's just always things.

And I think, um, that part was challenging just juggling all of that while you're stepping away from your product and customers, so hard.

Um, and just embracing full-on, okay, I'm committed, like this is just what I'm doing right now, I kind of gotta roll with it until it's wrapped up. Um, and I don't think anything was easy, no.

Yeah, I would add that I feel like I think Diane mentioned earlier that you don't actually know, you know, exactly what you're doing and it's kind of evolving as you're discovering things about your business and about your customers.

So you're going into this office, I've always had a huge problem with the deck, I, because to them, it's just a deck and their job stays relatively the same every day. But like my job is changing and I still don't actually, I'm having this identity crisis, basically early on when we were reforming what we were doing.

So I think that one of the hard things is that in that meeting, it's almost like you're having a therapy session a little bit. They're giving you feedback and you're finding out things about what doesn't make sense or how you're not communicating the idea.

And on the inside you're thinking, if I could just like turn myself inside out and show these people what I can see in the future, then like of course they would invest. Kind of to your point, but you can't do that and so this deck is this, it's supposed to be this embodiment of this idea that you're so passionate about.

So I think when the meetings don't go well, um, it's really painful not just because you're not getting the money, although that's frustrating, but also because you're seriously feeling like, like how come you can't see this? Like how come you can't see me?

And I, and I think that I'm saying you can't see me because it's early on very much connected to who you are, it's not separate. So I felt like that was hard and then you can't necessarily bring that back and be like hey co-founders, like come give me hugs for a while til I feel better, they have stuff to do so you're kind of just like holding on to that on your own until you finish the process.

And so I think, um, and I don't think people talk about that so I think it's a little hard. I did discover like further down the path that, oh, I could talk to other founders who've already raised and they'll actually know what that's about, but I didn't get that at first so, um, that was really hard until I started to realize that was normal to not actually know exactly what we were.

Okay, so we're all women here. Um, big question: do you think that you were treated differently for being a female founder by the investors, either positively or negatively?

So Michelle, let's start.

Well, I did not, there's slight differences. So most of the investors we met with, um, were male. Um, I remember meeting with one female VC, and I thought it was the coolest thing because she got a text and it was her nanny, and she, you know, that hadn't happened, you didn't see the human side of a lot of the investors.

Um, so I found the female VCs and Angels a little bit, um, easier to relate to. Um, and you know fundraising, I always say ambition's gender neutral. We went after it hard, we achieved all of our metrics that we were after, so it always surprised me when the press would say female founder questions.

Um, so it took me a while to find my rhythm with answering those questions. Um, I had, um, the blessing and surprise of discovering I was pregnant shortly after closing our round, so I didn't really, um, notice the difference, the gender difference until after um, I was visibly pregnant and an investor said, um, oh, if I would have known you were going to get pregnant, I wouldn't have invested in you.

And I remember at that point going, hmm, what do you do in this particular moment? And, and I just remember asking him, so if you do get find yourself in that situation, ask the question back, you know, and say well, what do you mean by that? Or just pause it back and throw that, you just feel like you take a punch and it takes you off guard.

So remember to throw it back in a neutral way, what do you mean by that? Why do you say that? And then he all of a sudden went, oh, that was kind of an, an awful thing to say. Um, so he instantly turned bright red and I was no longer the one, you know, holding the weight of that ridiculous statement.

Um, so that was, that's my little bit of advice or experience out there.

Jamie, how about you?

Um, yes, I, yes. Um, well, you know, I have to say, um, I've had the fortune, as anyone who's gone out fundraising, to meet with many, many more people in the process than you end up working with, um, on your team as investors, and, um, so it's a little bit self-selecting because yes, those who treat you differently.

Um, for example, walking in to a pitch and being like, wow, I thought you were going to be a man. Um, or, Jamie, it's tough when your Jamie guy's name.

Um, actually my mother named me that on purpose because she never wanted me to not get the interview, so um, she felt like I deserve to have a chance to at least get in the door and then it's up to me to prove myself.

Um, so I've kind of seen that, um, come back in some of these situations. Not that I wouldn't have necessarily gotten in the door, but at least, um, the gender stereotype doesn't, um, get activated until the moment I do, at which point, um, I have been, um, told I one time I came in, sat down, was told, um, I'm incredibly good-looking as the first thing, um, as I was trying to prepare and open up my deck.

Um, so that was awkward in one of those moments. I didn't say, what do you mean by that? Although I probably should have, I just kind of shrunk in my chair and was like, maybe I shouldn't have put on makeup today. Um, and you know, we laugh, but I think everyone has some kind of version of a similar type of experience and some kind of scenario.

Um, I've, uh, been, I've been padded on the behind by a VC, um, and these things have happened, but I, and, and I'm surfacing them here. I don't think, um, I know for a fact I'm not the only person who experienced these things but I want to contextualize this: those were the extreme outlier situations and I have 15 amazing, amazing investors, two of whom are women, the rest of whom are men. Gender was never an issue.

Um, not at all for any of them, and I say that with a lot of confidence. It never came up. I never felt those awkward feelings, and I'm quite familiar with them. Um, and it just was all about the traction we had, the fact that we were profitable when we raised, uh, that went like this, um, their belief in me and my vision in the conversation we had about the market and where this can go, and that's all it was ever about.

So, um, yeah, of course, I think those, um, I have been treated differently for being a woman, um, and other people saying things like why would anyone invest in a female-founded company? Everyone knows women can't execute.

Um, and so that's, that's an easy one to counter. I mean you just execute, so go for it. So I'm married to my co-founder, so that adds a little bit.

Um, I mean, I guess it could go both ways, right? Like a guy can walk in and be married to their co-founder, but I think that it's because there's another thing going on. So I'm married to my co-founder. Co-founder is the CTO, and I code too.

So I feel like one of the big things is I'm immediately stereotyped as like the um, like the girl Friday, like just get everything else done so that, you know, he can code person. And I think that that definitely came up. No one says anything super explicit, but there is this sense of like a technical question comes up and I would go pitch by myself because I just didn't, I was like, I want to make it very, very clear that I'm the CEO here.

Um, and, uh, for a while I just kind of noticed, oh, they didn't really ask me any tough technical questions about the business. And the business has a pretty major technical component.

So eventually, just kind of flipped it around and started to just, um, start the conversation with that stuff, which I think is helpful. But I would definitely get a lot of questions like, you know, you and your husband, how long have you been married?

And I guess I don't know if that's about being a woman or just being a married co-founder honestly, but it always kind of felt like, um, when that stuff came up, some people would just ask it and it was like, okay, that question's over, needed to cover that. And then other people really wanted to dwell on it and the people who dwelled on it just kind of felt like that was not probably how it would have been if the roles were reversed.

Um, I've definitely not had the experiences you've had. The one I hate though is when they talk about your market being mommy bloggers. Like that comes up. I swear it's just, it just, please, if that comes up, just tell them like that's not my market. In fact, I don't have kids and I don't think mommy bloggers is a good market for this or whatever.

Like I found that so, uh, I was like, is that the one female market that you know? So that came up a bit, and I actually just kind of put those people on a list of like doesn't know what they're talking about, not going to work with them, and that was fine, but that came up from time to time.

Um, I have no interesting stories like that thankfully. Um, I raised with my husband, uh, Paul Graham's advice is to have the hacker do the pitch, and my husband, uh, and I have a third co-founder. Um, my husband was the hacker and he did the pitch.

Um, that was for this, the angel in the series A. As we're going into our B, uh, it would seem ridiculous to have him do the pitch now. Um, I'm, you know, I'm the CEO and I, and I've built this company, and um, we did have one time when Mark Andreessen asked us, uh, the three of us were sitting there. He said so how did you choose me to be the CEO? And, uh, the boys looked at each other and they looked at me, they're like, it was obvious.

Um, yeah, but, but you know, I haven't had any bad experiences. My, uh, my lead investor of my A, uh, told me that he actually, he, you know, he's, he references checked out, he was very impressed by our technology and very impressed by my semi-husband.

And, um, he said but he made the investment because of me, which, um, you know, gave me great confidence coming into this because everyone had heard of Bobby Johnson, Bobby Johnson, all heard of him. Uh, no one had heard of me, but, uh, but the man who made the big investment in us was, he did it, you know, part because he thought I could lead the company.

Did you, um, did you go to all pitches, all three of you, or did some of the ones… would be a subset, no? Uh, that let them go out on their own? No, no, no. I never let them out on their own.

Okay, so apart from that piece of advice to not let them go off on their own, what one piece of advice, if the people in the audience only remember one thing, what one piece of advice would you give to them about fundraising?

Jamie?

Get in, get out. Um, I used to be a big video game player when I was a kid, um, and I, you know, to get to the next level like Super Mario, um, you know, you'd always have to kill that monster and there's like fire around you and like you're about to die, and you try to save everything up but you have to get to the next level.

You're not there to just hang out and you just, you know, it's not supposed to be fun, but you need to pass on, that’s kind of what fundraising I feel is like. So really, really, and that was advice PG gave us. Um, and he gave me, he said he sat me down, uh, right after demo day and said, Jamie, um, I want to have a talk with you, do this quickly and wrap it up because, um, your team doesn't look like Larry and Sergey and so you don't exactly pattern match, just go in and do this. And I was like, okay.

Um, yeah, I think I think we just closed 2 million, um, in the past week, so okay, good, good, good, he was, he was very relieved.

Um, but you know, stack up those meetings, you might not sleep for a couple weeks but, you know, do 10 meetings in a day. It not only helps with urgency in closing out but you can get back to work, so get in, get out.

Did you do any scheduling in terms of some days with San Francisco, some days were down Sand Hill Road?

Yeah, so, um, you know, of course demo day helped and press were getting, um, around there. But I also just, you know, made sure to pile up all the leads around the same time and would just say, um, you know, right like these few days I'm going to be down the peninsula, these few days are in San Francisco.

I'd be running around, I mean if I overpacked my schedule, it was okay because I'd run late to another meeting and that investor there and I'm so sorry, you know, 15 pitches today and everyone wants in, so you know, I'm just, I'm sorry it's just crazy, and then, I mean, they kind of love that.

Um, so um, I think it's different for different stages too, but when it's that awful, uh, first meeting and it's angel investors and, um, it's really about that rapport and them learning about the early stages of the business, um, it's good to just, you can probably get a lot of them in there.

Um, and then having like a forcing function, for me it was going to Burning Man, so I said I'm closing this round, we have demo day, um, and I'm going to Burning Man next week and I'm going to be off the grid for a week and I don't want it hanging over my head, so I told people, um, I'm going to close by then. So they were in or they, they were out.

Um, so we were able to close at that point, which was, um, I think exactly one week after demo day.

That is quite a feat to do that one week after demo day.

Um, so I guess I think Jamie really nailed it about saving time. I think another big thing is there you're going to get a lot of push back to do things like change your deck in some way or come up with a new slide or change your product or a bunch of things and, um, you could just say no to that stuff.

You don't have to do it. You know it's your business, you're still a CEO, don't give up your, you know, the fact that you're running the show when you walk into that office because you want this money so badly.

Um, and I think that that's actually very hard because you feel like these are the people who are deciding whether you live or you die. The odds are you will find someone who wants to work with you if you believe this is awesome and you have a plan.

So on top of just going through it really fast, kind of stick to your plan. You know, you maybe if nothing works out after a hundred meetings, then something's really wrong, but otherwise just stick to your plan and stick to your vision and if they give you lots of feedback like put it on a note card somewhere to look at after you're done fundraising.

But don't go changing everything just because you got a couple of difficult meetings back to back in a 15-meeting day, you might have seven really bad meetings, and so don't make that, uh, the reason that you change everything.

Um, my advice, oh, I have lots of advice, but I'll see if you have time later.

So, um, but my I think my most important advice to people who are actually not, um, founders members of Y Combinator, the cool thing that Y Combinator gives us is somebody to help vouch for us.

Um, if you're not a Y Combinator, it's that's fine, you can totally do it, um but find someone in your field who's, who's respected and, um, and ask them to, you know, really hear your business plan and really hear your technology and if they uh, if they approve, if they like it, they're like, yeah, this is actually kind of cool.

Um, that's a really good place to spend your equity and have that person as your champion because VCs, um, you know, they hear a lot of people, a lot of pitches and they don't have time to go and really look deep into everybody's technology and, and the time-saving thing they use is they look to somebody you know they already have vetted.

And so you can get one of those people to speak for you, it would, it can really change what you're doing, and so that, I mean, that's a cool thing that we have, um, in Paul Graham, um, but it's totally doable for someone else.

I mean, we had to give equity to the program too, so um, so no, this is a good thing, uh, to spend it on, and if have, you know, if you can't even get all of those meetings, you know, if you, if people aren't calling you back or they're not paying attention, uh, spend your time finding a champion who isn't, you know, necessarily a VC but someone who the VCs will listen to.

And my big piece of advice would be selective, be strategic about you ultimately are giving a part of your company. It's a little bit like giving your baby away, um, so be selective with who you ultimately decide to take on.

Um, I think this also brings up confidence. Investors, when you're selling vision, want to see confidence.

Um, and so when you approach it that way every night before we would meet with investors we'd go through, you know, did their, um, did their background principles align with ours?

Um, and ask them, I think I echo what Anne said, be ready, have some good questions for them. They enjoy that, it breeds confidence, and then you also get to make sure you're aligned, um, for moving forward.

Okay, um, I also there's, there's a, I guess an added that people, uh, have quoted to me and it's ask for money and get advice and ask for advice and get money.

And I just, it's, it's proved true so many times for me and I, and it's so much easier to get an A, an appointment with someone to get a meeting with someone if you say, hey, I could use some advice rather than hey, will you give me money?

And, um, I mean, you can and, and then you might actually even get some good advice too, um, which I, it's a great trick.

Okay, well I would love to talk to you all more but unfortunately, we'll be here till midnight if we do, so I'd just like to say thank you very much and for being so candid with your stories as well. I'm sure it's much appreciated. [Applause]