A Discussion With Sal About Systemic Racism

Hi everyone, uh, Sal Khan here from Khan Academy. Welcome to our daily live stream. Uh, for those of y'all who are wondering what this is, you know, this is something we started several months ago as a way to keep us all connected during times of social distancing and just have interesting guests and have interesting conversations and take your questions.

Uh, today, like always, I'll be taking your questions on Facebook or on YouTube, and we have team members who can uh, surface what y'all are asking. Uh, we've done we're going into a last minute change to today's uh, live stream because of all that's going on in the world. We originally had uh, one of our great team members, Marta, who's our VP of Engineering, scheduled to join, but given what's going on in the world, um, you know, I thought it'd be better to save Marta for a day where, um, you know, there isn't all of this going on.

And, you know, I just want to uh, give my two cents here for whatever it's worth. You know, a lot of times I'm very careful about uh, saying you know, Khan Academy and we. It's true we are not a political organization. We, as an organization, are not left, we are not right, we are just trying to empower as many people in the world uh, to have access to an education.

And I think every now and then there's an issue that comes up that frankly transcends politics. Uh, and I think that what's going on right now with obviously what happened to George Floyd, but obviously that's just one in a string of many incidents where you re there is really only one side to this and that there's just some basic uh, human dignity that isn't being given to folks.

And, you know, sometimes you can rationalize that, well, you know, the whole world there's going to be things that happen that are unfortunate. But, you know, for every one of these things that captures folks' attention, that gets, you know, captured on someone's cell phone, you've got to imagine that there's another 100 or another thousand that don't get the attention and don't get captured.

And for every time something horrible like this happens, that someone gets killed or severely injured, you have to imagine that there's another thousand times that it doesn't quite go that far, but someone is humiliated or someone is unjustly imprisoned or just treated in an inhumane way.

Uh, and this is a real thing, this isn't just something that happens on the news. I remember when I was in uh, business school. This was back in 2003. One of my classmates, uh, Matt Turner, I know he's written about this, so he probably wouldn't mind me mentioning his name, who's African-American. He was a section president, he was an Air Force captain, he had gone with me to MIT.

He was clearly at Harvard business school and he was visiting some friends in Dallas. And while he was visiting, he was just walking on the street and all of a sudden a police helicopter and cops, policemen started showing up with, you know, guns out. And he was arrested for, for an hour and frankly humiliated.

And it turns out that the crime that he was a suspect for uh, was committed by four white men several miles away. And that was the first time that it was an aha in my mind that this is not something that is just an abstract thing that happens in random parts of the, you know, places that are disconnected. They can happen to your friends, they can happen to your family, they can happen to people you care about.

And if it happens to someone like Matt, who is, you know, by any measure as in as, as you know, kind of living, uh, he's kind of the aspirational life, uh, that we, you know, he, he's or, or what we should aspire to, I should say.

Um, and and has, you know, served for our military, uh, you know, doing everything right on the cr. If he gets humiliated like that, you can imagine, uh, what happens to folks who have less of a voice, less of a platform, less representation. So this is a really huge thing.

You know, all of us at Khan Academy, we pride ourselves on that. We want to help level the playing field. We want to make sure that everyone can empower, can, can tap into their potential. But if you don't have basic human dignity, if you have to worry about your own safety just because of the color of your skin, because of the way you might look, I think, you know, that just hampers your ability to have an openness to anything else, to being able to engage in your education or your career or whatever else.

So anyway, you know, I wish there were things that I knew of, uh, that that I could take more action other than just speaking out about it that this transcends politics. The only thing that I can right now imagine that is going to make a difference is for there to be real accountability.

I think, um, you know, it's hard for for anyone to imagine a situation where where this shouldn't be held accountable. And you know, the whole theory of justice is you might not capture every crime or you're not be able to hold everyone accountable, but if there's at least examples where people who clearly did wrong are held accountable, it can help create pause and keep others from doing things in the future.

And obviously it shouldn't just be about the people who directly committed it, it should be the people who are also kind of let some of this stuff uh, go by for many, many years. Um, so anyway, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to pretend that I'm, um, you know, a major actor in this.

But I did just want to say that this is something that has, you know, unfortunately seems like we hear stories about this every three, four, five, six months, um, and they're disappointing. Uh, but they just keep building on each other and uh, they're, they're very, very unfortunate and um, you know, just breaks your heart to see it.

And it breaks your heart to think about how many other situations there might be like this in the US and frankly around the world where, you know, there's people in groups who for whatever reason don't have as much voice. And you know, people who have more power sometimes abuse that power.

And, you know, I want to make it very clear, uh, there's many great wonderful people in law enforcement. I believe that the bulk of people who, who desire to go into law enforcement want to do it because they want to protect society. They want to um, uphold the values that we all believe in.

But there is, I think, more than just a few bad apples in that for sure. In any field, there might be people who get into the wrong for the wrong reason, but they should not be allowed to act on it especially when they have the public's trust, especially when they are armed, especially when they can arrest folks and physically, you know, manipulate of, you know, impact folks.

Um, you have to have just a much, much higher standard of conduct and a much higher standard of of what it means to hold other people accountable and not allow this type of thing to go on. So anyway, I'll get off on my soapbox. This is, uh, bother, you know, I'm fortunate I haven't directly experienced this in my life.

But obviously folks close to me have, and uh, when you see some things like this, it really disturbs you. Um, uh, but but anyway, I'm happy to look at questions, comments, uh, you know, and I, this is really just kind of an open-minded uh, discussion.

I'd love ideas if you know folks, uh, might have. Um, let's see, uh, a few folks are commenting about my haircut. Thank you. Um, I mean, on a, on a lighter, on a lighter note, uh, part of that haircut situation is I was so excited about the SpaceX launch which I guess was a silver lining from from the weekend that my wife wanted to give me a haircut and I was in such a hurry.

I just took the clipper from her and I, I did this. But, um, anyway, thanks for that comment. I have mixed feelings about it, but that was a, that was a highlight of the weekend uh, to see kind of what I think is some of the best of humanity when we work together, the cool things that we could do together.

Um, and I hope that I can um, on the live stream bring some folks from SpaceX at some point or NASA to talk about that. Uh, but you know, it's sad that the same society that can do incredible things like that uh, on the same level we can't give basic human dignity to uh, large chunks of our population.

Um, let's see, others, there's comments. I mean, you know, uh, there's uh, you know, a lot a lot of good questions. And you know, I'll just say it just feels, uh, you know, normally I like answering pretty much any question that that comes.

And some of these are, are very flattering to Khan Academy or to me, uh, but it just feels, you know, a little bit beside the point right now. Um, you know, and look, this, this crisis or whatever we're going through, and obviously it's layered on top of at least one other large crisis, it's not going to end today, it's not going to end tomorrow.

You know, we kind of, but it is this might be the, the thing that finally uh, makes this a major issue that doesn't just get talked about when there's another cell phone footage of, you know, someone being abused or mistreated or in this case, you know, killed, um, for no other reason than being in the wrong place, in the wrong time with the wrong person.

Um, but unfortunately we see a little bit too much about that. Um, well, you know, this is a question from Facebook related to what we're seeing a month, uh, batter Charia. As an educator, where should I start teaching my students about racism? You know, I, I don't, I don't want to pretend like I'm an expert at this, um, so I, I can't really give a lot of advice on it.

I would love advice actually from other folks on um, what, you know, if there's ways that uh, Khan Academy or folks like us could help, we'd love to know. But, you know, I do have a general view that the more exposure you have to folks that are not like yourself and you, the more appreciation that children have or people of all ages have, um, that frankly everyone on the planet is pretty much just, you know, normal people trying to get on with their lives and have basic health, basic safety, basic education, trying to do right by their children.

Um, and you know, I've just, just pretty much described almost everyone. Um, then you know, hopefully we see a world where some of this um, doesn't, doesn't happen as much. Uh, you know, I, I, I'm someone who prides myself in trying, you know, being able to empathize and, and seeing both sides of an issue or all three sides of an issue.

But I, I genuinely have trouble getting in the minds of folks who um, harbor the degree of hate or anger uh, irrational. I mean, with no, um, you know, to, to be able to, to be able to do these types of things, you know, there's, there, there's no, you know, there's, there's been incidents before that have been also atrocious but there's maybe, you know, maybe the, maybe there was fear or maybe there was this or that, but you know, this is a situation where you even if you're grasping for straws, there's no straws to grasp on and all you can talk think of it is it's pure hate, pure anger and it's, it's hard to, uh, it's, it's hard to understand that frankly.

But, but yeah, um, let's see from Facebook, I wish I could be more helpful. Uh, Dina Newman, uh, we talk with our kids about having conversations with people we are uncomfortable with and ask questions and hear stories to change the narratives we already have in our heads. Great! So there you go! Um, to month's this question, Dina has kind of answered it which is, you know, we, we have to be comfortable in our discomfort.

Um, and that might be people that, um, we we've stereotyped in one way or the other and it goes both ways. You know, I think we're in a time where um, clearly a lot of African-American folks or minority folks might get stereotyped and are treated unfairly. And, you know, this is a time where a lot of very good um, people who work in government or law enforcement are, are also, you know, probably themselves shaking their heads and saying, you know, it's they're probably less worried about themselves when saying like, “well, it's so unfortunate that this is happening”, uh, because I mean it's just so many layers, obviously the, the very act that it happens and then there's a layer of it's um, it just breaks down trust, uh, and it's, and sometimes it might become harder to have those conversations uh, that you're referring to where folks can talk to people who they might um, be initially uncomfortable with or who might feel like they have a different life story or life path than themselves.

So if there's, if there is a silver lining um, is that this is kind of the, the straw that breaks the camel's back that, you know, real accountability is going to happen. It's not just in Minneapolis, but it's systematic real accountability. Uh, and I hope that the, the energy just that gets channeled to the, you know, more of these conversations that you're talking about. I think the protests are an important part, obviously the peaceful protests are a very important part of that.

I hope they continue and the energy continues, uh, and I hope over time that energy also gets, um, grows and gets transferred into uh, systemic change. Um, you know, but I don't have a clear idea of exactly how all of that plays it out, but that that can also be a, be a hope.

Um, let's see from Facebook, I'll think for ideas on how to talk to white students you could read Raising White Kids by Jennifer Harvey. Students need to have these difficult conversations. Black Lives Matter in school is one model for encouraging conversations about race in school. Uh, yeah thanks for that comment, Alf. You know, I, I don't know about this book so I don't, I can't officially endorse it.

Um, but uh, yeah, I think it, it seems to go into that same theme of, you know, just more empathy uh, and realizing that, that you know, as I said earlier, everyone's just trying to live live a decent life. Um, and it's really sad when you know, just in, in you know, I tend to be an American exceptionalist I tend to, you know, I tend to be very proud of um, many at least what the country has attempted to stand for. Obviously it's had its issues going back to slavery and racism and the civil, I mean we could we could go and, you know, I could say, “oh, you know, my family came to this country after all of that happened”, but um, I, I'm a beneficiary of this country and that means I'm also a beneficiary of its history and its history is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

And so I think any of us, even even those of us who are immigrants or who are family whose families immigrated here, uh, but we are able to benefit from this country which I, I do love, um, should also should feel, uh, should reflect on our history and uh, of, of the country. Obviously reflect on the history of where maybe your roots are as well, uh, but but also feel responsibility to think about how to how to, you know, how to change things because a lot of that history clearly has still has still um, a lot of probably more than we recognize.

Uh, there's there's a lot of stuff going on, uh, that that's still there. Um, so let's see, other things. So, so Sachin Pillowed, is this actually the same section that I went to business school with? Well, if it is, well either way, good to see you Sachin. If it's Sachin I know, it all starts at home. How does one ensure we able to teach our kids to walk around someone else's shoes? Empathy and kindness should be our focus at home in our schools.

Yeah, couldn't couldn't agree more whether you're the Sachin that I know or a new Sachin. I think you, this I don't know how many Sachin Pallets there are in the world. It's great to see hear from you Sachin, uh, but yeah, completely agree and I think it is, you know, it's intriguing I've, I've talked to uh, other non-profits that have been very focused on empathy and empathy projects and I've theorized hey, wouldn't it be cool if there's ways to, you know, get in the cloud and volunteer and teach kids who are on the, you know, quote the other side of the railroad tracks from yourself or other side of the country or in a country that your country is at odds with but you realize that the people there are still people.

Um, yeah, I agree, I think that's that's how empathy that's how empathy happens. Um, let's see, Mahirai from Facebook says no one is born with hatred, it's certain parts of our society that inculcate such a thing and school is the only place where we can remove this. Yeah, I agree, I agree. And, uh, you know, and I think, you know, well yeah I'm not an expert at any of this, I'm just kind of thinking live about this and you know, uh, for for whatever it's worth.

Um, so yeah, there's a lot of other questions about Khan Academy and normally I would really enjoy answering all of these questions but, uh, given, given uh, what's what's going on in the world, uh, I might take a pass at least for today. I mean I don't, I don't want I don't want us to, I I don't want us to kind of stay mired in um, in this uh, you know forever but um also don't want to lose the energy there and kind of just say oh this was unfortunate and then move on and then life is normal again and then six months later it happens again and then everyone says oh this is unfortunate, how horrible, and then life gets normal and then six months later it happens again which is unfortunately been the pattern for the last 20 or so years.

Um, so, so yeah that's uh, that's I'll just maybe leave it at that for today because, you know, I mean there's a lot of there's a lot of uh, quite good, good questions here about Khan Academy and education and all of that. But I think for for for today's episode of the live stream we'll just make it a little bit of this like you know this is just a moment for all of us to pause all of us to think about um, you know what kind of a society we want to be, what kind of a country we want to be, you know how, how does the justice system work, how do we hold folks accountable.

Um, and uh, yeah and how do we not, you know, paint paint folks with a broad brush and treat everyone with with dignity. Um, and I'll, I'll just leave it at that, leave it at that. Um, you know we're gonna have some interesting guests for the next couple of days, uh, the CEO of Novartis, the Mayor of San Jose. I am going to ask them a few questions about things like this. I think they both have an interesting viewpoint and then we'll, we'll kind of continue and talk about other things as well, like things like like education, etc.

But obviously, um, there, there's a lot of energy as there should be around uh, what happened to George Floyd. You know, I have to say there's another dimension of this that like, you know, he's roughly my age and um, you know, so I know there's something about that that you build a little bit more empathy, uh, where where you say wow, you know what, what if that was me? What if it's my children who are um, you know, because of some act of cruelty or whatever?

Um, and so anyway, I don't know just stream of thought consciousness for me. Um, my apologies for for not, uh, being my, my, my chipper self. Um, uh, but yeah, you know, this, this is, this is hopefully, hopefully this this pain leads to uh some growth for us as, as, as a society and, and you know, not just in the US, uh, but but around the world.

And you know, it's, it's all about and it's not just about pointing fingers, it's about looking at ourselves. You know, this is, this happens, you know, the US we talk about red states and blue states and we can easily say oh this is happening because people on that side of the politics did this or didn't do that and on this side we’re better.

But you know, I've seen um, aspects of this happen from, you know, people who vote either way. You know, my, you know, I had actually another friend, I won't use her name because I don't think she's publicly talked about this, but this was actually again in business school. She was a Harvard student and she was going into her own apartment in Harvard Square and the police accosted her and arrested her for, for thinking that she was burglarizing her own apartment and, and she was, she she was African-American.

And so, you know, it's, it's these aren't random. Um, and, and these are just kind of the things that uh, you know, I I've happened to see in my own lifetime directly and obviously you hear the things on the news. So yeah, let's just all collectively think about how we can uh, how we can, you know, not just feel upset about it and not just talk about it, but that the energy uh, continues uh beyond the moment and and it leads to real change and real accountability at a systemic level.

Um, so with that I'll let everyone go, uh, but you know thanks for joining this live stream and you know my apologies for Marta. We did the last minute change and I hope to have Marta again. I think many of y'all will enjoy talking to her and we'll continue this conversation and uh, obviously it's connected to education and empowerment which is where Khan Academy is focused on.

But thanks everyone for joining and let's, let's just hope, pray, meditate, whatever you like to do, uh, that that we can we can find um, that that some good comes out of what obviously is a very unfortunate uh, series of situations and circumstances. Talk to you all later.