Homeroom with Sal & Marley Dias - Thursday, November 12

Hi everyone! Sal Khan here. Welcome to the Homeroom live stream. Before we jump into our very exciting conversation with our guest Marley Diaz, I'll give my standard announcements. A reminder that we are a not-for-profit organization, so if you're in a position to do so, please think about making a donation at khanacademy.org/donate. We can only exist through philanthropic donations from folks like yourself.

I also want to give a shout out to several organizations that have stepped up. We were already running a deficit pre-COVID; COVID hits, our costs go up even further. Special thanks to Bank of America, Google.org, AT&T, Fastly, Novartis, and many of our supporters, large and small. Thank you for that help! It's what allows us to keep going and serve tens of millions of students around the planet. But we also do need more help, especially for 2021, so if you're in a position to do so, please think about it.

And then my last announcement, a reminder that this version of this live stream is available in podcast form, Homeroom with Sal, the podcast, wherever you might find your podcasts. So with that, I'm super excited to introduce our guest Marley Diaz. She's an author and she's the founder of 1,000 Black Girl Books. Marley, thank you for joining us!

Marley: Thank you for having me! I think you might be our youngest guest so far, so you've already set a record!

Sal: I wouldn't be surprised. I hear youngest all the time.

Marley: Okay, you should enjoy it because I used to hear that and I don't any longer!

Sal: So, you know, there's a bunch of really interesting things that you've been working on. Maybe a good place to start is to explain what hashtag 1,000 Black Girl Books is and why you started it.

Marley: So a campaign I've launched is called 1,000 Black Girl Books, and it has the goal of collecting and donating books where Black girls are the main characters to communities across the world. This originated from me being a lifelong reader, loving to read so much in fifth grade, but my teacher not having diverse books within our assigned readings and reading lists. So, I knew from my personal experience, and loving to read at home, that there were so many stories that included the experiences of Black girls, and people of color, and people with different experiences than mine. But when I went to school, I never had access to the stories that I valued so much.

So, with 1,000 Black Girl Books, my original goal was to collect 1,000 books where Black girls like me were the main character. Now, over the past five years, I've collected 13,000 books where Black girls are the main characters and have been able to donate thousands to not only promote diversity and inclusion but to also show other kids that it is possible to care about something super deeply at a young age and to pursue it with the help of your community and your parents.

Sal: I want to double click on that, but I want to remind everyone watching, whether you're watching on Facebook or YouTube, please put questions in. Our team is looking at them; we will surface them to Marley or myself, if applicable.

But I want to double click on what you just said because I think there's a lot of fifth graders, you know, 10-year-olds, which is when you started, who will look at the world and say, "I wish the world was a little bit different. I wish I could change that aspect." But they're like, "I'm 10 years old, what can I do?" I mean I know 30-year-olds who think that way, "I'm 30 years old, what can I do?" Much less if I'm 10 years old. What was it in your mind when you were 10 that said, "No, I think I can make a difference," and how did you do that? How did you put one foot in front of the other and start making progress towards this initiative?

Marley: Well, I think that's a difficult question because although I had created something, I wasn't always confident that I would be able to achieve it. The reason why I had 1,000 is because in my fifth-grade mind, not knowing all the numbers that I can count to, I thought 1,000 was the largest number I could think of. So, I felt like that was a reasonable goal for me, a reasonable yet egregious goal.

I think for a lot of kids, it really starts with research and understanding the problem. At first, I thought that only my school, and only my school in West Orange, New Jersey, was the only school that wasn't diverse. But as soon as I complained to my mom, she was explaining to me that her parents had this issue, my dad's great grandparents had this issue, and that it exists in a larger scheme of things.

I think my first step for kids, before they decide to take action or step out somewhere and try to protest or fight against something, or to fight for something, is to do more research and to understand the ways in which this problem exists in your community and then in the whole world and kind of a larger grand scheme of things.

Sal: And how did that happen? So it sounds like your first step was to start talking to your parents about it. You learned that this was a broader issue than just what you were facing in your school or your area. At age 10, how did you say, "Well, okay, what," how did you decide to take action? What were some of the first steps that you took?

Marley: One of the first steps was figuring out what books do I have in my home that I think every student should have or what books do I really care about that I think public schools need. So, "Brown Girl Dreaming" by Jacqueline Woodson was my favorite book at the time and my mom had—she's still one of my favorites, but I'm not 10 anymore, so it's not necessarily my favorite right now. My mom would maybe take pictures posing with the books, and what we would do is she had an office space, and we would post the places you could send the books.

I would say, "My daughter Marley is a lifelong reader; she really loves to read, but she cannot find books where Black girls are the main characters." So, after I understood that, "Oh, Marley faces this issue, but thousands of people of color across the nation face this issue as well," please send to here if you can donate. Now, people may think that I got an outpouring of love and support in the first months, but I did not. I got some family friends here, some random people on the internet here, and it wasn't necessarily what I had expected.

I thought I would reach a thousand and become this large success, and now I've achieved that over a longer period of time. But I think for a lot of kids, it's about using the power of social media, asking your parents to say, "Hey, can I talk to my teachers and ask them if we can put a drop box in our classroom? Hey, can I talk to my principal and my track coach and my soccer coach?" So a lot of the times it's really reaching out to people that already exist within your space.

I used social media because I knew it was a helpful tool for people that may live super far away, but it's also important to reach out to people that we know—our postmen, our teachers, and our community members.

Sal: I think there's two layers at which your initiative is really interesting. One is the direct layer that you're talking about—the need to collect, you know, a thousand-plus books for maybe your local community or local schools. I think there's a point in the signal that it sends to the broader world that we should have more diversity in the books we read. I actually think the other meta point is what we're talking about, which is that, you know, someone between the ages of 10 and 15 has a lot of agency in this world—maybe because of social media, maybe because of other things—to actually get people thinking and get people to take action.

When did you realize that this was more than just a little project? Where you're, you know, saying, "Hey, let's get some books," that's kind of a book drive. When did you say, "Hey, this is going to really mean something and I should put more energy into it?"

Marley: I started the campaign in November of 2015, and that was me sitting at the diner with my mom complaining to her about how much I thought fifth grade could have been better with better books. Then after months and months—and my goal was in February—I had collected only about 200 books within the span of three or so months, and I was so disappointed in myself. But towards the beginning of January, and kind of early February as well, there were people in Philadelphia that were reaching out for me to do radio interviews and to talk about this. When people started mentioning that this was more of a systemic issue and that the idea of not having diversity within classrooms existed for decades before my generation, I thought was when I realized, "Maybe this can connect to more people than I imagined."

Because I really only thought at the beginning that it would be teachers that understood the problem, that were in classrooms and students. But then understanding that everyone in the United States has to go to school at some point and now kind of forcing people to think back on their experiences and to realize that there were so many inequities they faced, and now you can help a young person like me, who is now experiencing these inequities, to hopefully stop them and stop them for future generations of students.

So when I heard my grandparents saying that they experienced this, and hearing my parents say that they experienced this really opened my eyes to the idea that I could connect with more people and my story could matter to a lot more people than I had imagined.

Sal: Yeah, I mean that's an understatement. And you know, it's funny because even when you had, you know, 200 books in a few months, it's not a small achievement. I want people to know that I was not happy with it because a thousand is not 200. But my parents said that even if I only collected 200, we were still going to donate them. We were still going to pursue the original goal because the goal is not necessarily—it is a thousand Black girl books in the title—but the goal is to learn how to help change the world, the goal is to learn how to give back to others.

And for a lot of kids, I think because I've gained so much media attention, they feel as though they have to set a thousand as their goal or they have to set a million. But in reality, it's about taking your skills, taking the things you love, which for me was reading, and then applying them to the problems you face and frustrations you have.

Marley: No, absolutely! I can't overstate what you just said. You know, even the early days of Khan Academy, I was happy when I was able to help two or three of my one cousin and then two or three cousins. But in the back of my mind, I said it’s going to be useful for them; could be useful for a lot of other folks.

Sal: And I think you've gone on a very, very similar journey. You know, there’s a good question here from a YouTube viewer, Chloe O'Neil. It says, you know, you're clearly someone who has a deep love of books. How have books affected your life? And I’ll extend Chloe's question a bit: How have they affected your life and why do you think it’s so important to see yourself or to see diversity in these stories?

Marley: Well, I think reading is super important for so many reasons. I think one of the main things about why diversity is important is because so many kids do not like to read. They don't find it fun, and often reading is used as a punishment within the household. We’re often presented with similar stories; hearing that some of the stories I was assigned, my teachers had read when they were in school—which might seem fun—but we also need to think about how can we change and adapt to the ways that our classrooms now look, the ways that technology is involved.

So, reading is super important, and having and supporting so many authors that are innovating in their writing, because you can connect to the experiences of so many different types of children. The books I was reading mainly had white boys as the main character, and my quote was kind of that I only read books about white boys and their dogs. Although that might seem like it’s just an independent experience, over 80% of the books published in 2015, the year when I faced this problem, were about animals and were about white people.

So I realize now that when we think about reading, we have to make sure that we show all the aspects of different people's lives: Native people's lives, Black people's lives, white people's lives, women, girls, children. And then make sure that we include in our classrooms a look out into the real world and to see our friends, our family, strangers that we may admire, our heroes, and that all these people can look different and their experiences can be different. And difference does not mean a bad thing; it is actually a gift to all of us to understand and see the perspectives of new people and ideas.

Sal: And you know, now that you've gone on this journey and you have these many thousands of books that you've been able to get, I mean I’m assuming you're reading a lot of these books. Have there been some stories? I mean you mentioned one is your favorite. I mean, what are some of the—I encourage everyone to go to your website, 1,000 Black Girl Books—but what are some of your favorites and why?

Marley: So, some of my favorite personal books—one will always be "Brown Girl Dreaming" by Jacqueline Woodson, which was kind of the accident and the purpose for starting the campaign because I loved it so much.

But some of my favorite picture books, I would say, are probably "Please Puppy Please" by Spike Lee. I would say "President of the Fifth Grade" by Sherry Watson and "PCB Together" by Renée Watson. I've read so many books now at this point, and I always read the picture books first because, you know, they’re a little bit easier for me to read now that I'm 15. But when you start to get into those middle grade books, especially for middle schoolers, you realize how important that time is because your identity starts to develop.

Your point of view—you get more time to speak, you might have more eloquence and articulation in your ideas. And I always push for that, especially for kids that are within, you know, fifth grade to eighth grade, to start thinking about social action as an everyday thing, because now you're starting to recognize patterns and realize, "Hey, people said the same thing to me in elementary school, and I'm now facing the same problem in middle school. How can I stop this from happening?"

I have a resource guide at the website called grassrootscommunityfoundation.org, but if you really are a little bit lazy, you can just look up 1,000 Black Girl Books, and it'll be there. But it has a list of over a thousand of the titles that we've collected that are separated by emerging reader, middle grade reader, and independent reader. So if you are in that middle grade, that fifth grade to eighth grade, grade three through grade five, you can make sure that you find books that show these interesting perspectives and can help you find the words to describe some of the things you're passionate about.

Sal: And what you know now that you've—I’m assuming these books you’re distributing in your local area to other places—have you heard from students your age or even younger that said, "Oh, thank you for doing this. I never saw myself!" What kind of feedback have you been hearing?

Marley: I am so happy that I'm still able to hear feedback online, especially through Instagram and DMs and all these things. But when we got to actually travel before COVID-19, it was so fun getting to meet kids because I really, really enjoy that experience so much more.

I think because people don’t have diversity, they don’t necessarily understand that it’s an issue, so we get to go to schools in Chicago or we get to go to schools in Philadelphia. It is so much fun to see kids be like, "Oh my god, my hair looks just like that! Oh, I wear glasses just like this! Oh, I have these beautiful brown eyes, and this cover of the book has a girl with beautiful brown eyes!"

So it's really amazing to see Black kids get to see themselves, but it's also really cool to get to see kids of different races and experiences talk about why and how much they love those books and how much they enjoy them. Because obviously, race is not the only thing that is super important about these stories, but it matters in our everyday life, and our differences are something that’s worth being celebrated.

Sal: Oh, that’s super, super powerful. You know, not only are you an avid reader and a collector, I guess you could say a curator of books...

Marley: Yeah!

Sal: ...at this point, you could say collector! I have so many books now my personal home as well that I think you could say collector! I’m imagining these stacks of thousands of books all around you, which your shelf behind you is more organized. But I’m assuming these thousands of books are art.

Marley: I have like a whole thing full of books because whenever I get a signed copy from especially self-published authors or independent authors, I keep all of them in my home in my personal library because I don’t want these people to think that they don’t matter to me. Then all the other books get donated that we have their copies for, so I keep at least one copy of almost every book I try to keep that I really like and am interested in.

Sal: And you know, I’d love to see that stack sometime. You’re not only a curator, collector of books but now you’re going off and you’re writing now. You know, there's another question from YouTube, Taupin Airlines, I don't know if they're in airlines or not, but they said, "What made you want to write a book or be a writer?"

Marley: So, kind of the reason why I wanted to write "Marley Diaz Gets It Done" was because all the time I get asked, "How do you do it? How do you do it? What are the steps?" And it might be nice to say it to one person, you know, after I do an event or I talk to them and I get to have that independent interaction. But I wanted to put that information out there, and I wrote the book when I was 12, so it’s not necessarily the most updated version of my methodologies or beliefs, but it really captures the passion and the interest I have in social action and reading.

It talks a lot about my family, which is something that is super important to me for people to understand is really a part of my guiding principles in life—what I believe in, what I care about—and how important it is that we have caregivers and educators that invest in children's curiosity, their imagination, and their leadership. Because I've had all those experiences, I really wanted to put it out there and emphasize the importance of sharing that with kids and for kids that might feel like it's too late, "My parents didn't help me with this, and I don’t feel like I can," providing them with solutions and options to work with their friends, their families, and other members of their community to create social change—to feel confident in their ideas and to hopefully make some meaningful impacts.

Sal: Marley, does this get it done? I mean that actually sounds like a political slogan. I’ll ask you about that in a little bit.

But it is—is that what it is? It’s kind of like a handbook of like, "Hey, if you’re a young person—or actually not a young person, you’re just a person who wants to do stuff in the world, you know, this is one way of tackling it. Is that the goal of the book, to get more people to take action?

Marley: The book is to be a guidebook, but it’s also really important to me, and I think it’s kind of an underrated part of the book, to celebrate the gratitude I have for other activists that have come before me. Talking about women like Augusta Baker, who used to be a librarian for the New York Public Library, and she was so focused on diversity and inclusion post-Harlem Renaissance, and talking about Bob Marley—who I’m named after—and Jamaican revolution.

You know, there are so many little tidbits I have, and the book is full of color, it's full of pictures, and it’s inclusive to people that don’t necessarily like to read and aren’t gonna, you know, pick up a book that’s this heavy with no pictures. So I made sure to make it a guidebook for kids, obviously, but then for anybody, like you said, that’s interested in changing the world or wants to know more about me.

Sal: It’s very cool that you were named after Bob Marley.

Marley: She named me after Bob Marley so I can— I will never forget my Jamaican heritage and the pride I have in being Jamaican.

Sal: Absolutely! You know, a question here from YouTube, and you know, anyone who does something in the world, especially something that's public, you're bound to get—you have some setbacks, some criticism. So this question from YouTube: "Yudon Youth says, did you experience any negative feedback from people? If so, how have you handled it?"

Marley: I do experience some negative feedback. I think one of the things I hear the most is, "Why does it have to be about race? Why does it matter?" And I get that question, I understand it. But I think whenever people ask that, they’re insinuating that something about race is bad or talking about race, but it’s not that at all.

I think the more that we make these conversations natural and don't treat talking about and saying that I’m proud to be Black or saying that I'm proud to be white or from any other country or any other region, it is the problem. So what I try to do in this conversation is to not say that I’m a girl of color or a woman of color, but I’m proud of being a Black girl.

That’s the way that I’m perceived in the world, and showing pride in who I am is something that's really important to me. So it can bother me sometimes when people say that because they insinuate that talking about race is bad, but hopefully by including these conversations with younger kids, they understand that there is something really cool about being different from other people.

And there's something really cool about trying different foods, learning different dances, understanding different types of hair and music and culture from new types of people and new experiences.

Sal: Yeah, absolutely! I mean exactly; your point isn't that all the books should be Black girl books, but you're saying they should have a reasonable representation. And so I think it’s really important for people to know that I’m not trying to push anybody out; I’m not trying to push any stories out, but rather bring new ones in and provide hopefully a fresh perspective to diversity and what that can mean in the classroom.

And are there moments where—I have to say you, you are like 10 times at least, you appear more confident than I was at your age. I mean, are there moments where you feel like, "Wow, you know, I don’t know if I’m gonna be able to pull this off," or you're unsure of yourself? And how do you handle that type of thing?

Marley: Yes, I feel that more often than people would imagine. And sometimes when I talk about it, people don’t believe me, but I definitely do feel weary of my own potential and capabilities. Because I also think, because I’ve exceeded it, and I’m oftentimes the first person to do this, or the only, or the youngest like we were talking about earlier, I definitely want to make sure that I show well of who I am.

I want to show well of young people, and I want to make sure that anytime I get an opportunity to be the first, or the youngest, or the only, that I am a representative of the greatness of my generation, or people like me. And it’s funny that you say that because I was literally last night watching your video on summarizing quantitative data because I had a statistics quiz today!

So I get nervous about stuff like that, like any other kid. I had a statistics quiz three hours ago that I was so nervous for, and I watched your videos to help me! So, you know, I have those everyday things—I feel like I’m not good enough at something, or I’m not ready for something.

Sal: No! Well, I'm honored that you were able to leverage Khan Academy for that! But yeah, I mean, what you're feeling—and I say it too because I think so many people—you look around the world and it seems like everyone else has their act together. It seems like everyone else is so confident, but I know for a fact, you know, I always—and I haven't outgrown it. Hope you'll probably be on a better track than me. But I’m 44 years old now and I still have imposter syndrome.

I'm in front of, you know, giving a presentation to important people and I'm like, "How did I end up here? Like, why am I doing this? Am I making any sense at all?" So I think it's just important for other people to realize everyone thinks that, and it's just a natural part of being a human being.

You know, I do want to—I wasn’t joking when I said that "Marley Diaz Gets It Done" is a nice political slogan. I mean, where do you see your future? Like, what do you want to do? You’re 15; I mean, you got time, but you’re already doing a lot!

Marley: It’s not as much time as people think, because I'm 15, but I'm in 11th grade, so things are moving a little bit faster than I thought. But I've always said that I wanted to be interested in journalism, and I've always been intrigued by telling stories. I really like to write, and I find that that's my most comforting hobby.

But I am better at math than I give myself credit for, so I’m not really sure at this point. My mom is shaking her head in the background because she always, anytime I take standardized tests, I say I’m going to do so long English, and I always out-performed in math and never in English! So I know that I have skills that sometimes are untapped because I surround myself with books.

I’ve always loved books, and now I’m facing where I have so many things I’m interested in. I have thought about politics and being in public office and helping people in that way, but I want to do something that makes sure that I'm always providing a voice to people that matter to me and to hopefully help my community in a way that is meaningful and not artificial in any way.

Sal: Yeah, no, I mean it is funny when you say you’re 15 and you feel like things are going by fast. I mean, I kind of felt that when I was 15, and then all of a sudden, I wake up one morning and I'm 44 and I’m like, "What just happened?" But anyway, hopefully, it does not hurt me because I feel that every day. I’m like, this week for me has gone by so fast, and I think like this month will go by and then the year will go by.

But I always make sure to look forward to the future and I keep my options open because you know it’s really cool— with the work I’ve been able to do, I’ve been able to meet directors. I’ve been able to be in front of the camera. I’ve been able to write articles for L.com and work with Glamour and to see so many different things that I’ve always dreamed of doing.

And I hope that in the future I will be able to help other kids pursue these interests and to work with them in collaborating on creative projects and initiatives.

Sal: Absolutely! There’s a bunch of questions continue to come in about your book. Are you hoping to write other books? What other topics are you interested in?

Marley: I am not so sure about writing other books. I've always been interested in that, but like I told you, I feel like one day I'm gonna wake up and I'm gonna be in college and I get nervous about what the future may hold. But I am completely interested in continuing the work that I do, and if that involves writing a book, I think that it would be really important to do something like that.

There are so many other things that people don’t know or I haven’t really talked about when it comes to the ways that 1,000 Black Girl Books has changed my life and what it’s like to be a teenager that is talking about race in a new way that is challenging the ideas of adults. I think that a book that talks about girls like me—because there are more than people know that are interested in social action—would be something that’s really cool.

Sal: Absolutely! And you know the time we have left, what messages would you give to—what would you tell the 10-year-old version of yourself if you could go back in time or, you know, 10-year-old kids across the world that, you know, see something in their community that they'd like to fix? What advice would you have for them?

Marley: Well, I think one thing I always want to say to people about social action is that I am not trying to prove anything to anybody. I think for a lot of people, they may feel motivated by the idea that they have been told that they’re not good enough, and they are actively doing something because someone told them they can’t.

But it’s also really important to always work in the positive. The work I do is because I love to read, and I want to see more books where Black girls are the main characters. I don’t start 1,000 Black Girl Books, and I didn’t start this campaign because I didn’t feel like I mattered, and I had to prove to people that I matter. I showed it because I love to read, and I always want to work in the positive.

Although I can frame it negatively, I think it's really important for people that come up with mission statements or have frustrations to think about what can I do to make things better rather than what can I take away.

So it’s always super important, I think, especially for young kids to think more optimistically and to lead with hope and to leave the idea that positivity—and hopefully, obviously understanding the negatives of a situation, understanding that there is systemic racism in this country, and me not having books is a part of that—but also understanding that what I can do is hopefully be a small part of this chain of activists, of leaders, of powerhouses, of creatives that will hopefully break apart this horrible system.

So I think when I talk about 1,000 Black Girl Books, I always want to talk about it as something that is great, that is amazing, rather than saying I’m trying to end something that is horrible, that is disgusting and that is hurting me.

Sal: Well, Marley, I gotta say, I think you just not only inspired a bunch of 10-year-olds or 15-year-olds, you inspired a bunch of adults because what you just said about focusing on positive action, I think is wisdom that, you know, many people, many multiples of your age, haven’t fully grocked yet.

Thank you so much! This was really an inspiring and refreshing conversation, and I have no doubt that we're going to see you much more in the years to come.

Marley: Thank you so much! I appreciate it!

Sal: Well thanks everyone for joining! Hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did with Marley. I wasn’t kidding; I think we're going to see a lot of Marley in the years ahead in a very good way, in a very positive way. But thanks for joining, and I look forward to seeing you at the next live stream. I think it’s going to be next week, but I will see you then. Talk to you later! Have a good weekend!