Bitbutter, guest on Decline to State podcast

Hello and welcome to the Decline to State Internet radio stream, the show where we get together to discuss the ups and downs of life outside the matrix. Decline to State is proud to bring you a surprisingly few net casts in which the hosts do not support acts of aggression against you. You can find us on the web at DeclineFM.com. You will find a link to live chat, and today we plan on having a fun discussion with one of the most fabled names from AM Capstan. But more on that in a second, I run with Paul, your beacon of freedom in the heart of Silicon Valley. I am joined by my handsome co-casters, who will introduce themselves.

"Hello, this is Reto Reto. I think Toast is finding headphones to get the audio quality just pristine for us, but he'll be with us in a sec."

"And the person, the famous name I was hinting to, is in fact, if you saw the advertisements today, is Bit Butter, the man who makes great, compelling, attention-grabbing videos to reach minds that are not already outside the matrix, people to pry them in just the right way. We thank you very much for joining us."

"Thank you! It's very kind, pleasure to be here. And we were talking a little bit before the stream, but I wanted to kind of save that excitement for the episode."

"Yeah, and I wanted to see you blush in person, even though I can't do that on a podcast. When we had Dr. David Friedman on, he was talking about the fact that, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you made an illustrated video for a talk he did. But I think you edited a little bit, and it was for like a hit illustrated freedom, is this correct?"

"Yeah, it was like a, you know, the RSA Animate style former thing. So he had a lecture, and I illustrated it in an animated way like that, which was amazing."

"And he told us that when you did somebody else's, he was jealous. He was a little bit jealous for a while that David Friedman, you know, he has all these books, and he has all this wisdom and knowledge, and this giant heaping brain, but he didn't have a Bit Butter video. So that was classic."

"I think I remember reading the post where he mentioned that, and I think it was some other… someone else made a video for someone else, yeah?"

"And he mentioned wanting to have one of his own like that? Yeah, and that’s good! I double-checked for you that he was okay with any kind of IP law plagiarism thing. He was happy that it was made when you did do it."

"Good! Toast, how we doing?"

"Which I think we're okay! Are we okay?"

"Well you sound fine and dandy, glad you joined us!"

"You can read great now, you're kind of last minute show. You helped prepare some questions and ideas, and I have a few myself, but do you want to jump into another?”

"I would need the Google Doc link."

"Oh, you forgot it? It was like a ten-minute fierce brainstorming."

"Oh, I know! I just pulled the car into the garage at 9:57, and I'm like, 'No, I can make it guys!'"

"Okay, it's not fair. You all make it."

"Okay, so one of the things was kind of what you saw on the Weebly I wrote down too. So that was a good question. I have like a slight variant on it, and you know, we want to stay with that. So we can… I give too many curveballs until we get to bizarro mode later! Hahaha!"

"Actually, you've heard of his arm out now that you sell Kevin Carson?"

"Huh? This um one. But one thing I've heard you say—I don’t know if it was in an interview or text-based—but you said something that I've also seen the person who we use for the outro music, formerly the intro music, Porter Robinson, say a lot: really creative people seem to say this one thing that resonated with so many people wasn't as good as it could have been, wasn't just right, it wasn't maybe up to my standards; it could have been better, and of course I'm talking about George H. or to help. Porter Robinson said the same thing, I think with 'Song of the State,' which is pretty sure it's Ian Capustin's unofficial official national anthem. But I've seen this, it's kind of a recurring theme with people who have done acclaimed creative work that didn't seem quite right. And I'm curious, you kind of tell people the same; what if that's true, I guess? And what that might have been? Was it kind of a desire to kind of make it a little more open to a broader audience, to make it less of a libertarian circle-jerky thing? Or was it a different thing?"

"Not to say that it was right, but this is… yeah, sure enough attention he falls, I suppose. Yeah, with George H. or to help, it was really stupid stuff like the walk cycles are really bad on those characters when they walk by at the end there, looks really wonky."

"Okay, so animation levels, yes, animation stuff. And like back then, my skill with After Effects wasn't quite what it could have been, so there's, you know, the scene where it depicts like the Democratic population voting, you see this kind of field of bodies that was a bit crude, you know these kinds of things."

"It kind of reminds me of the, I guess, the first episode of South Park with a wrestling fight with Santa Claus. No, I think actually our quality of that…"

"It's funny you should mention that! I was recently thinking about the early episodes of The Simpsons in relation to George H. or to help because I think a similar thing happened in The Simpsons. It looks like the Simpson family is, of course, like the first, the first set of characters that were designed and they all have this interesting thing going on with the hair. They have like this very economic goal way of having their hair depicted. Marge is the only one who has real hair. The rest of this is kind of an extension of their skin with a haircut like three lines. Bart has right triangles, and yeah, and that doesn't work for all the rest of the characters in Springfield. So it's that you have this one—at least this is what I'm assuming happened—you have this, these design decisions that happen early on, and they kind of, that they don't fit exactly with the stories that need to be told. And the similar thing happened with George H. or to help, that the design of that world was kind of arranged especially to tell the story of George H. or to help, and the animations that followed it, it made sense to continue to place them in that world again, but their stories needed to be different, the demands on the design were different, and so you get the situation where there’s this disconnect happening, which gets bigger over time. And it’s not something that I’m particularly worried about, but uh, yeah it’s just interesting to notice it happening."

"Yeah, and as a viewer, I frankly just didn't even think twice about the cloud being the narrator in George H. or to help. So, but it affected how much you wanted to go into liberty. I mean, there's probably lots of people, and their subconscious was like, 'Yeah, that background stuff didn’t quite jibe, I’m gonna stay away from liberty and freedom for the rest of my life.' That’s a little dramatic enough. I tend to agree with Toast. It's actually really interesting to hear you comment on, you know, from an animation standpoint, something that's far from me, you know, what things could have been better. What was different?"

"Yeah, I mean, I guess it was clearly up at a high enough level where they didn't really get on my radar. Now that's great for me. I'm still really happy with the content of George H. or to help. Of the three of them, I think that's still my favorite right now despite the like their kind of shortcomings in some of the animation and so on. So while this your particular inspiration for George H. or to help?"

"I think I did when I first started thinking about doing something like George H. or to help, it was shortly after having seen a YouTube video by a user whose username was, or most recently is, Fringe Elements. And wow, that's how you pronounce it. I usually say Fringle Mins. That’s a running joke we are very familiar with Fringe. Yeah, right okay. And he posted a video called, I think it was 'If This Wasn't a Name,' then it was an important refrain throughout the thing, and it was something like 'The State is a Death Threat,' and it was talking about the ultimate enforcement of law through threats of deadly force."

"And this for me was quite a big deal to have this explained that way. And it's, yeah, I don't think it's actually—it wasn't a great video, but it was for me at least a very important one. And I thought that it would be a good thing if more people were exposed to this kind of propaganda. And I thought I could do it in a more seductive way. So then I was thinking about exactly what the starting point should be, and this idea of, yeah, this, this welfare state was a target that made a lot of sense to me particularly with, with the people I know who I believe see the role of the state as this provider of welfare as one of its most important justifications. So I thought if I could challenge that, then I'll be off to a good start."

"Are we back? I couldn't… yeah?"

"Okay, back. Oh, we're back! Okay. Let the—we had a momentary audio pause and that was kind of an odd one but it wouldn't be a decline of state episode without a little bit of a snafu on the technical side. So we're good! That’s the last one, that’s all we have to deal with him right back up though!"

"I'm glad! I'm actually really interested that you used the word propaganda because that was gonna be my follow-up question after you mentioned Fringe Elements, Ryan Falk, that I'm sort of similarly inspired, that I've been experimenting myself with sort of maybe alternative means of communication that aren't straight up, like, direct, I guess, logical arguments that libertarians so often seem to prefer. So do you think that this sort of like straightforward logical approach is actually kind of flawed?"

"Not exactly! I think it reaches a different kind of public eye. For instance, I think I'm especially susceptible to pretty—ah, what's the word?—dry argumentation. And I think a lot of us are! You're like a lot of the poor community as…"

"Yeah, I think so too! I think it’s one of the things that goes along with the kind of personality traits that will make a button lean towards libertarianism anyway. But yeah, I think it has its place, but yeah, the target audience I'm interested in is, is it? Yeah, is I guess more liberal actually. I kind of notice that, I mean like I feel like I kind of have a similar thing; I don’t know if it biases towards liberal or conservative. I live in the People's Republic of California, so it's obviously very liberal, but I have a more conservative family, and I know in Europe, these terms might mean different things to a degree, right?"

"But I can totally resonate with this appeal to, okay I know that I’m one of these people, that the logic, the dryness, I can buy – I mean that can be enough for me! But in terms of pushing and pulling out, you know, tight, you know, making contact with other minds, it seems ironic to other people around me who are like, 'Hey, we have this community that’s built in, let’s talk about these things!' But I almost want to phrase things in a way that’s more… maybe like Toast, same or more emotional level?"

"More indirect, like you’re saying, kind of, you know, talking about people’s welfare and just pretty—pretty much any other way but the way that it strikes me because it takes—it’s kind of like you said, it takes one way to kind of get there on your own and one way to, in one way to kind of reach a broader group of people. And it’s kind of strange I guess, and maybe I do comment on this—doesn't it feel strange to kind of find home or find this thing—okay, this makes sense, this works with me—and then I’m going to immediately exit it, I’m going to go out and try to like leave that comfort zone?"

"No, that makes perfect sense! Of course you want to, you know, you’re convinced that you know something about the world that not everyone else knows and I don’t know, for me it’s natural to want to try and evangelize that."

"Yeah! Well, in your—and you've got the—I mean you can just tell from the way you’re talking about your passion about—it's fun, it’s engaging. I mean that’s all it really takes right?"

"Yeah, well that's— that gets you a good way there! But yeah, I don’t know, I think knowing your target audience is super important, so which is essentially why I make videos for people who are very much like I was maybe five years ago, something like that."

"That’s the audience I know the best, you know, because I've been that person more or less. And yeah, it’s tricky for me at least to reach much further than that. I think if I can reach that rough group, then that’s already pretty good."

"That's— I mean, not that advice though, Ivan seems very, very shrewd. I've heard that even in different circles like people that make lots of money or write books on investing will say, you know, invest in things that you... oh, invest in things you understand! Don’t... I know, there’s this tendency to think the grass is always greener, let’s try to access these people—they’re totally unlike me! I’ll try investing in these companies that are, you know, I work in— I work in grains and cereals and farming. Let’s go invest in high technology; that's where money's at, yeah!"

"I mean, yeah! You can literally have such a good, you know, reference point to just be able to hit the rewind button five years and say, yeah, I just go to go to myself, I can see that person!"

"I think it's part of the reason we enjoy the bizarro mode question. We had Michael Dean on an episode we couldn’t really publish due to the—we’ve had audio quality problems the whole time, but we asked him to, you know, form an argument against his own beliefs, and he just hit the rewind button a few years, and it was probably one of those dead-on ones we've ever heard."

"Yeah! I see someone in the chat mentions, 'I’m a moral nihilist subjectivist.' Yeah, that’s right."

"Okay, yeah! Just not sure what the context was for that question."

"There's no context with Aaron; Aaron is just the brains behind the show, and he's got hi-loxy questions and the things you’re being chased into a very specific filing cabinet in the no-barrier."

"If you are a moral nihilist, yeah, you’re in good company here I guess."

"Okay, good! For the record, a pair of the mmole annoyed—that is your official category for you—D, is—is that what? Is D, oncologist equivalent to malanoid?"

"Yeah! You should know when we brought my new—when we brought stuff to the show, I used that word and he got really, really, really, really angry! You should have seen that."

"Which one did you use, malanoid?"

"Oh, of course this week it’s wee-wee-wee—chided him into a little friendly banter about the naysayers. It’s because, you know, we—I think we kind of, I guess just even being a libertarian, you become a de facto apologist for, you know, Stefan Molyneux. Even if people don’t like him on a personal level, he doesn’t seem to ring with them, or you know, you defend big corporations and stuff like that. So, yeah, I told him straight up that we are Stefan Molyneux apologists and then read—I said that he was malanoid, and then I take him shortly afterward! He kind of blew his thumb."

"I think it’s completely uncalled for, quite honestly! If your name has a three-letter suffix that is a label for an ideology, you should be proud of yourself. Nothing that he's been doing!"

"Oh, yeah! So, yeah, I see the question. I was wondering how it played in with your making of George H. or to help—my being a moral nihilist subjectivist. And I guess the approach I took with George H. or to help as well as with the most recent one, 'You Can Always Leave' is... I guess it's a kind of moral coherent ISM that I look for what I take to be the moral overlap between myself and the target audience, although the viewer, and I try to build from that into conclusions about when, you know, what is aggression and when the use of force are justified, etc. So I don’t, yeah, I guess I’m not bad in that sense! I don’t think we need this, you know, this kind of absolute or this, you know, the natural right stuff. I don’t think that's extreme; I don't think it’s very useful. It's useful in as far as it kind of coheres with people's intuitions about what's, you know, okay, what are acceptable ways of treating people. But I don't think there's much to be gained from taking these things to be facts about the universe."

"I'm actually really glad that you answer that question for an earring, because I—and I hope an area, your real estate, I know he weighs—but I mean that is... it's like an apparent dichotomy! I mean I just want to re-emphasize that me what you said is really profound! I’m very pithy statement that you have kind of moral arguments, moral ideas that are very relatable, and you don’t personally necessarily believe that, you know, you can axiomatically take down moral arguments to kind of create a view of the world or that, maybe, that Rothbardian perspective isn't airtight. But you know, still for reaching an audience it’s effective, hopefully! I’m kind of somewhat paraphrasing ideas of yours."

"Yeah, exactly! The important thing is that you’re persuading one another hopefully, and we know where those convictions come from doesn’t matter an awful lot to me at least. Like, you know, whether or not it’s true that moral facts exist, or you know, other natural rights exist—all that actually matters is what you think is an acceptable way to treat people and what your interlocutor thinks is an acceptable way to treat people and you try and reach an agreement about that."

"I never knew what the word interlocutor—I never used that word! None that I have no! No, I think I think the first time I ever saw it written was from Red O. I think probably a large part of the community learned English from Ecuadorian on Reddit."

"Yeah! The Internet is a weird place. It screws with their minds but in a good way, I think!"

"The moral of the story is that you want to pick the argument that’s going to work for the audience, and the truth behind it, I guess what you might want to be, that can be your own and it can—but it not necessarily doesn’t have to be the same thing as the way your audience understands it, I guess! I think that’s a big takeaway, much again. Yeah, um, not to belabor that point, but I know Georgia to help is super popular, but I think some of the other ones, your videos, you know, people haven’t heard of. If it's haven't seen as much, I mean, Edgar the Exploiter I think maybe a lot of people have, but what about what about the three characters or the characters in that one? Or some of your other ones on were good? It didn't jive as much; maybe you didn't—you said they weren't as good as George ought to help? Kind of what made that the case or Sunshine and others fail?"

"I guess in my head, at least, that the whole Dear Static and the story of Edgar the Exploiter, as well as You Can Always Leave, it's not as much of a coherent whole as George H. or to help is. And that's—that just has to do, I think, with the fact of all of the visual assets of George H. or to help being designed specifically to tell that story and having the luxury of having a completely blank slate at the beginning. So, you know, the kite is having blue skin etc., that made perfect sense then; they didn’t have hair, etc., you know—all this kind of stuff. And later on, when there needs to be a greater variety of characters, you know, Edgar has quite a lot more detail on him than the characters in George H. or to help do. Then you kind of—yeah, then if I, because I needed that detail for expressions and conveying things."

"Yeah, well to, for instance, I wanted to have him as this, you know, this archetypical Marxist idea of the parasitic capitalist, so there were certain things about him that needed to be rendered, like his, you know, the wrinkles around his mouth when he’s laughing and the money’s falling down at that ground, this kind of stuff. And that wasn’t, you know, that that wasn’t possible if I stuck very rigidly to the style of George H. or to help. So over time, the kind of implicit style guide if you like of George H. or to help gets kind of stretched and distorted, and so in the end, you are, if I were drawing You Can Always Leave from scratch, without if that were the first animation I'd made, I would make quite different decisions about how the world would look based on the story I needed to tell."

"Okay, I mean, I'm actually comfortable with you introducing all kinds of new things that are different a little bit as long as you don’t introduce any kind of charge our banks type character! It's a—it’s everything! You brought the Simpsons earlier too. It's funny of it, on you know, an evergreen terrace or their street, there’s, you know, there’s like a freeway over and you know, an onramp right nearby them and parks, and they’ve eleventeen different neighbors. I mean, after you have 400 episodes plus it probably—wherever they are at, it’s probably hard to keep things consistent."

"Yeah, absolutely! And it's not necessary either. I mean, it's—I don’t mean to say that this is something that I'm really disturbed by. It's just, it's just interesting to see it happen. Uh, George H. or to help—I’m sorry to be loose out!"

"Okay, I can hear you again! Yeah, oh dear! Humbles me with a question entirely."

"Uh, second, yeah, when you were designing George H. or to help, or Edgar the Exploiter, any of them, is part of your design process to pick maybe which symbols or objects are sort of important to the message in such a way that you go through the thought process in your head, that you don't want to intimidate the audience or maybe trigger some sort of emotional reaction? Is there any sort of thought process along those lines?"

"Yeah, absolutely! So for most of it has to do with finding a way to kind of implicitly acknowledge the complaints that a viewer might have. And that’s a viewer as I said who’s probably quite politically left-leaning and probably from liberal arts backgrounds or at least is…these are the people who I have in mind."

"Work at a coffee shop maybe, so they—so for instance in Edgar the Exploiter—its, I guess you can look at it in different ways. It may be kind of like a fig leaf, you know, to depict the entrepreneur as this horrible cold-hearted, you know, profiteer. So visually, of course, I try and reinforce that aspect of it. And by giving this, I hope that by giving the sense that certain of these concerns are acknowledged at least implicitly in the design of the things and in the titles of the animations, that you put people in a position where they’re more receptive to what they’re going to hear afterwards."

"Does that make sense?"

"Oh yes! I mean, I was kind of taking a minute to reflect on the naming because I mean obviously the word choices is delicate. And Firstman, like that, you have so few words in there. I mean, I guess that the time kind of the thought put into, you know, each individual word probably a lot more than maybe a lot of the animation even just because it’s going to the title of it. I mean, it’s long; like it’s gonna be on there. I mean, the word ought and what—I mean, I think it’s an interesting choice of words. I mean, it’s not, I mean, there are certainly things, like 'should' or 'has to.' I mean, that’s stronger words, uh, I mean, I like a lot! It's a little bit more subtle. It’s like imply guilt and plot, you know, suggestive."

"It’s not like explicitly pointed out for that kind of hitting you over the head with like George has a gun to his head! I mean, which is—yeah, I tried to animate that but gave up pretty soon."

"Yeah, it’s—it’s true! The title, the choice of titles is for me extremely important. And I think the, yeah, what one episode that wasn’t too happy about was—so after I published George H. or to help, a bunch of people mirrored it to their own YouTube channels, which is fine by me, that’s great! But of course when people do that, there are certain changes that kind of creep in in terms of the titles that are given, and one of them is I think it’s still online its uploads under the name 'Taxation is Theft.' And for me, it’s—it’s kind of, it’s pretty much the antithesis of what I'm trying to do with the titles."

"Yeah, you had kind of an uncomfortable serve. And as you after you said it too, yeah I think you know, I mean right, it's like I’m—if you if you say taxation is theft, then the—I think you've lost the target audience immediately."

"Oh yes, the people are interested in reaching. I know exactly! Yeah, I mean, I think—I think I know exactly what you mean. Just you’re talking about this, I mean the way it—and I’ll speak of it, just the way I see it, I mean at some point, you’re going to put yourself in a category, you’re going to use enough loaded language that people are going to kind of recognize it, you’re not connecting sansing around things, and then the gig’s up at that point!"

"Yeah, sorry! Oh yeah, please go ahead! Yeah, I think if—you if you're being uncharted, well, you could describe it as a kind of bait and switch, but I think I think that’s not a completely fair way of describing it. I think I prefer to talk about it in terms of just creating an environment in which people genuinely don’t know what’s going to happen next! Or at least trying to approximate that as closely as possible! Because I think nothing manipulates and controls them."

"No, yes! Manipulate is colorful language java, but really you know who is actually really fantastic at doing that sort of dancing around the point was Cody Wilson in his interview on Glen Beck! I’m not insane! He refuses to actually give a label to himself even when Glen Beck is asking these really specific questions, like ‘are you an anarchist? Are you a friend or a foe? Should I trust you?’ and he won’t give a yes or no answer to any of these things! Yeah, but he's articulate enough and in a sense straightforward enough at the same time without really labeling himself that he comes off as very effective and kind of as a protagonist."

"Do you think he's gonna looks graduated? Do you think he’s ready to go on The O'Reilly Factor?"

"I don't know; that's a step up! That'd be fun! Yeah, I mean in a sense, no one really ever is ready for somebody like Bill O'Reilly just because, well, he is going to shout over you. But if you can come off positively in the audience's eyes, then maybe it's a good thing! It’s just that the people that tend to watch people as noisy as Bill O'Reilly tend to be the type that aren't really going to listen to logic anyway. Are your parents?"

"My parents? Yeah! Yes!"

"Yeah! Yeah, but again, I guess what I emphasized to you, the debate and switch, it's not a fair term! I mean, it's colorful language! But you're, you know, when you're teaching people about not wanting to use force or to conduct society in a way that at least we believe in, we could always be wrong. But that might be a better way of doing things. Na is better, you know, it's not love it into malevolent intent! No, I just, I think I came across a useful phrase the other day; I hadn't seen it before."

"Small words are bait-and-switch or small words that unnecessarily—they paint things in a bad light when there’s a much more charitable way of describing it. Are you familiar with the Redditor who goes by the name Ancaps Converter? I think the name sounds familiar; I’m not sure."

"He's someone with a fairly prolific post history. Well, he’ll post, I guess he's one of his go-to favorite things—he's a very creative guy. I think he really understands, well, like yourself, this idea of kind of dancing around the subject and infusing ideas and where that line is and in kind of broaching subject with other minds is he but he likes to post text messages. I think he goes on to let me go and helps, you know, chat with Ram strangers."

"He'll put his interest as politics, and he'll just kind of eek out of the other person what their point of view is. He kind of goes in this blind as the other person does! He'll find out if they're left, if they're right, and he'll see, you know, based on a name, as the name implies, if you can convert them to ancap within the extent of that conversation! That single text message, which is a pretty impressive feat to say the least, because there's people on, you know, on Indica Capistan, on the forum, said you know, I've never done that though! I don't understand how it's done! It seems impossible! They seem alone in for Lauren!"

"And I mean just, that’s just such a—I guess it’s such a feat of triumph and extravagance to go ahead and do it in 11 chat setting!"

"Yeah! That’s pretty impressive! I—With the videos I'm making I always kind of imagined that these will be part of like some kind of diffused cumulative case for, you know, for the ideas that we’re talking about that we’re interested in. Somehow I have a worry that if it's too easy, you know, if one piece of propaganda is enough to convince someone from scratch that perhaps that perhaps that victory can be reversed again."

"Oh! Just a heads up! Right after Victor you cut back here! We had and drop out again!"

"I apologize this is happening today!"

"You're on with us. Oh, no problem! Can you hear me now?"

"Yeah, can hear you great!"

"If you don't mind can I repeat that last thought?"

"Know if I can remember! It was… yeah! The… this idea—I don’t know if it really makes sense—but I have my imagination that propaganda that works kind of cumulatively in an environment where there’s lots of messages pointing in a similar direction, but that may be fosters more robust convictions in people because they perhaps have the idea that they've reached this realization more on their own rather than, you know, accepting any kind of prepackaged argument from one person.”

"I don't know if that’s true. Now that you just described the plot of Inception, and it's, you know, with Leonardo DiCaprio did a movie on it, it's got to be true!”

"No, but I like, that phrase was perfect! You said, a more robust, you know, people believe they got there on their own! It’s a more robust—what was the word you were using?"

"I… there’s a good pithy sentence! Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing! We got a few minutes! We’ve hinted at it, had a couple things in mine but beyond me! Yeah, I guess beyond making fun of his living in the Netherlands, I think maybe we can move on to a to a theme question… tell us?"

"Why don’t you take it away? Bizarro mode! So we have this thing on Decline to State that we do with every guest that comes on. What's up?"

"I think Bit Butter with me. It's okay, okay? Well, I thought I assume that was a joke!”

"Oh, is that… be serious? Oh my God, we have three minutes left! So you can hold it for three minutes!”

"Absolutely! So we have this thing called bizarro mode, and it’s basically where we ask our guests to make the best argument you can against the thing that you hold to be true most dearly. So for example, if you self-identify as a libertarian, you would make the best argument you can against libertarianism."

"Uhm, I’m really bad at this! Remember you can always just turn back the clock, become past you from five years ago!"

"The trouble is, the best me from five years ago didn't think about this stuff too much, so be apathetic, it doesn't matter! Man, whatever!"

"Yeah, that’s not displaying answer! I mean not everybody has to be as quick as Bob Gary took this! I mean some of our guests have literally just jumped right into the argument like without half a second of delay, and others need the thinking time!"

"Yeah, but I respect to where he's coming from like he—it’s clearly evidence just by the kind of the way he does videos, the way he communicates, kind of the fact that he was kind of hoping to get some, a primer on what we were interested in talking about beforehand. There's a certain style of communicating that he likes to kind of think and dissect things, and I guess, like you said earlier, it gets frustrating from real life in-person debates and discussions because it—you can't, you know, it can't go exactly the way you—you planned it to, you would like to have more time to sit there and collect your thoughts. So even I guess it's not a required question by any means."

"Yeah! Hey, if nothing’s coming to mind, it’s Noble! I'm going to continue thinking about it! But sorry, I clean; I can continue flattering you for I didn't eat! I'm so, so if you go, how's enjoying it?"

"Continue! Yeah! And he’s really masculine—strong, just really cool! The lifts he’s doing!"

"Do you even read it?"

"Anyway! I would just like to say one thing, and that thing is actually quite straightforward! Thank you, Bit Butter! It’s been amazing to have you make those videos! It’s been amazing to have you type comments on Reddit that I can read and I can show other people. It’s been amazing to be able to exploit that intellect that you have and the willingness to make your message very, very clear for people to understand and not, you know, for people to not be able to fall and change the subject in equivocate! And it’s just…the clear-cut message that you deliver is amazing, and more people should have both your ability and your desire to make videos like you do and communicating the way you do! I thank you for that!"

"Well that's really nice! Thank you very much! Very nice!"

"Yeah, maybe you should be the one flattered, and we are lucky to have your allegiance!”

"Yeah! I guess you’re like the flipside to Red O's coin, or his, the hothead latin man, and you’re the thoughtful? It’s like that? Or The Tortoise and the Hare?"

"So it's a bit after 2300 Eastern Standard Time and 200 Pacific! I’m guessing in Holland it’s probably—status time over there! I want to thank Bit Butter for being our very articulate and thoughtfully communicating guest! I’ll say thank you! I remember you don’t have to try to persuade people to your views! There’s no requirement it won’t even necessarily improve your life! But if you do, why not try different tactics, be more indirect! We would like to encourage you to give it a try! So keep Obama and President! You know he gave us a phone! He’s gonna propaganda! You two can continue to Decline to State as we continue to fill all the fields! DeclineFM.com or Decline to State on iTunes!"

"I would like to remind you the Declining State is still brought to you free of charge as well as paid advertisement free! We hope to soon have a bitcoin donation link up and running for those interested in helping to keep the servers running, the website developing, and the show going! A big thanks to all of our hosts, tech experts, researchers, contributors, and of course, Bit Butter for joining us again! Decline to State is a group furton motivated by our love of Liberty as well as capital's bow ties and free market monocles! Remember when, as always, decline the state! This is Ron Paul saying have a good one! This is Roto, and I hope you have a fantastic day! Thank you for joining us Bit Butter! And this is Toasty Time representing our Toasters Gone Wild! Tell stars are so sexy!"

"Okay, the studio is playing the outro! That was a good one! I think that'll play really well to the core and cap community! Our in cap! Yeah, there were a couple technical issues and I was like tripping over things trying to make it to my PC! Fortunately, the recording was okay, everything got recorded, so we didn’t lose any data! So that's good!"

"It’ll be funny because we'll be like, what do we just say in Alyssa Ayres? Well, now okay anyways that’s a typical enough thing—live podcasts, actually—that occasionally you’ll just hear like a clip in the audio and then we’re back! Better deal? Alright, didn’t know! So I think it’s fine; a little color, a little reality!"

"That was cool to read off of Aaron’s questions too! What if it is, say them or that he read, I should say, the singular? It’s I think we’re actually kind of fortunate that Bit Butter actually had sort of an interesting motivation for making the videos in sort of, you know, very willing to use that word propaganda, but sort of added some depth! I liked!"

"Oh yeah, absolutely! And you pick—I chose to use it for the Obama phone version 2.4 this episode! Ray, are we coming off audio? Reto, are you feeling like a little bit of a post-cast, or not sure?"

"Absolutely, okay! I mean a heads up, I don't really have that much to say, and I'm in need of a beer! So yeah, that was a total right now! Go grab one! Yeah! I’m on call for work, and my friend was covering for me until just a few minutes ago, so I may get interrupted, but otherwise, I’m down to hang out with you lovely folks!"

"Alright, sounds good! Bit Butter's back! The audio is still piping through, a little piping through music!"

"Yeah, the outro music piping sexy! I was thinking, do I get up?"

"God, sorry! I was thinking about the—the question about the best, you know, the best statist argument then! And how do you want to—are you gonna start the after show with it?"

"Oh yeah! Yeah, I sure—what was it? I just wanted to mention that it’s I guess it’s it’s so difficult because every possible argument I can think of, I immediately have the zoom, immediately think a really good response to it that kind of validates it straight away. That’s a good sign! You don’t worry about that though; half the stem, you have two people who make their counter argument really obvious that it’s not a very good argument."

"Yeah! In that case then, then the best one I have is the way. A Red—are we back to live? I’m going to punch into—okay, in five, four, oldest introduced! And coming back from the after show, Bit Butter’s had his bathroom break; Toast is getting a beer!"

"Uh, chill back and relax with us! If you're listening live or you're on the podcast, Bit Butter’s had a little time to contemplate and kind of after foregoing some of his—I guess his own intellectual rigor! He’s gonna take his full attempt at being a status!"

"I'm really bad at it. I was just saying the this question is so difficult because any any statist argument I can think of in my mind at least has a really good counterargument that invalidates it straight away! But if I had to choose then it would be along the lines of without the state, the desperately poor have no guarantee of a safety net!"

"They go right flank! Lousy!"

"I mean, my first thought is always there’s a—there’s a guarantee with the safety net. Right now that’s a good rebuttal, but yeah, I mean just where does that guarantee doesn’t simply work right now!"

"Oh yeah! Yeah, couldn't pin people! Bring the whole, you know, the state is the safety net and blah blah blah blah blah! I get three Etra and he—in the state gives money and stuff like that. You can… my question was just that is, is this—is this the case pretty much throughout the US?"

"Yes! This is resident! Yeah, it’s a legal decision made by the cultists that call themselves the Supreme Court and it’s being repeatedly affirmed by them because of course you see you have an obligation to obey them."

"Install a general obligation to obey them! You actually have to obey everything they tell you! But you see, in exchange for your obedience—which they call allegiance right—you get protection! But the protection is not for you specifically; the protection is for the general public!"

"So imagine you were, you know, if you were an insurance agent and I came to you to make an insurance claim and I told you, well you see, my insurance protection, my duty to ensure you is not to you, but you know, to the general public, to everyone. That’s my duty to ensure. So you can take, you know, your insurance and shove it up your ass!"

"Yeah! And you wouldn’t trade with this person, of course! Of course not! But when you’re forced to trade with these people, well, you get that slow to me!"

"Hey guys, I just got back! Has the show started yet?"

"Hahaha! We can’t get the server running! The studio is not working! You were supposed to fix it!"

"And that’s going eternal!"

"Not too bad, not too bad! Okay, those spoken energetically and enthusiastically there! Now I’m a little tired, it’s a little late, you know..."

"Yeah! You should definitely go and read some of like the logic that was given to the Supreme Court in those, uh, no obligation to protect cases! It’s like, it’s random stuff like, well the police don’t have to intervene in any particular situation because the lives of the police officers is connected to the good of society and the general public because they can in the future intervene if they choose to!"

"Yeah, but it’s a kind of sophistry that you’d expect from people who know that they, you know, they just have to say some random because nothing bad is gonna happen to them anyway, so they don’t give a shit—they can just tell you, well, yeah there’s no duty to protect you, because the moon!"

"Right! The moon! And, of course, the roads! Hooter, rodas? What, um, what single lasting skin episode? Things get more difficult with this approach! I mean people—I think people, when they find that out, I think they’re quite shocked by it, like this this story in particular where it’s so work so obviously you know happening right in front of their faces and not intervening and compared to either."

"I saw a story also lately about this more or less private defense agency in Detroit who do seem to be doing really well! But these kind of contrasts are going to be harder to ignore as time goes on!"

"I think it'd be a mistake to interpret their vote labrador vocal criticisms as like sort of being counterproductive because that really just means that they're closer to coming to the realization that they were wrong, I guess! I suppose!"

"Yeah! Welp! It’s about that time again! Hahaha! Wind down! This is my first time in a while! We've almost done a full two hours! I was surprised that you guys were still going strong when I got back from the store!"

"Yeah! Once it happens, this will be a good one for the band capstan home community, I think!"

"Yeah! I agree! Get to hear get to hear a circle jerk with Bit Butter and Red O the mutual congratulations! Red!"

"All aging about—I’m just a little jealous I didn’t get to get sandwich in the middle is all! Don't worry about me, but image in the middle of all that circle jerking! Yes, I jewelry at once Rattle to make Bucky!"

"Oh, he said it! Okay, it's hot! It’s a stream word on here! It’s—it’s the end of the after show! These kind of things you can get away with the beginning of the show! We’re still informal but not—not to quite that extent!"

"Yeah! Again! Yeah! Thanks Bit Butter for coming on! What time is it, by the pray tell? Are you—"

"It's 10 to 6 in the morning now!"

"Wow! Okay! Well, you probably more of a morning person than the rest of the rest of us folk!"

"But it helps!"

"Yeah! Maybe! I remember on the unspecific status time I got up at seven one weekend on a Saturday to to talk to you—that Mr. Rock and Mystery, or at least I was kind of in the background! That was—that was part of the roughest one!"

"On ya, England time?"

"Yes! To get gang appellee's is not the way to do it!"

"I just worked through the night this time! I think that's much more civilized approach!"

"You can call him a morning person because he stays up until the morning!"

"Yeah, spoken like a true Englishman! Civilized!"

"Well, I'm glad and interrupted, but yet—that's been fun! Always Decline to State! This has been the after show, one of the most full up shows you’ve had in quite a while! So thanks everybody for the good discussion!"

"Thank you! Thanks for coming on Bit Butter! Have a great night, guys!"

"Night everybody! What's a Bit Butter late at night for pooping silly?"