Dua Lipa: 'Radical Optimism', Songwriting & Headlining Glastonbury | Apple Music

Finally, I'm at a place in my career where I feel really confident. It took me so long to get to this place.

"Is that the book?"

That's the book! The very first page, it says "radical optimism."

"You kidding? That's the first thing you wrote?"

Yeah, like what was under there? That's what I want to know. Like something I really want. That is like... that is... that is canceled. That is a thought that has... you're never going to see that one again!

By writing these songs, it's a form of therapy for me. It's just such a vulnerable thing to do: to write your thoughts down into melody and then have it be consumed by other people. That is the perfect description of what it is to be a true artist.

It's funny when we think about how the world greeted Dua when she first arrived. The songs sounded so big, the performances were so polished, and people kept saying things like she's born to do it, like a ready-made superstar. But what I learned when I sat down with Dua in London recently to talk about her latest album "Radical Optimism" is that this has not been some predestined journey to greatness. Dua has pushed through enormous amounts of criticism and self-doubt where the story can be told, and I think it's going to surprise you.

"We're doing a tell-all! This is my first time talking about anything: album title, the record, the songs individually."

It's a collaboration. I always used to think when I first started doing this stuff that it was like I asked the questions and someone answered them, and it was a simple trade, and it's not. It's actually a dance when it's done well.

"It's a dance?"

Yeah, it's a give and take, but it is daunting in the beginning. So I'm like, I want to tell what it's about without... and so much of all the songs connect to the album and the title. I always said, like, sonically I wanted to experiment and do something different, but what it was really about was the I guess the theme, which is radical optimism.

"It's a great album title."

"Thank you! It feels like a relation to Future Nostalgia too."

It's... it feels like a connection to it, a little bit of a connection there. I wouldn't say literally, but it definitely has a feeling, a similar feeling when you say it: radical optimism. The way that I see it is this idea of rolling with the punches, of not letting anything get you down for too long, of always seeing the positive side of things, of being able to grow and move forward and change your perspective regardless of what's happening in your life.

Whether it's heartbreak, whether it's a friendship, whether it's a relationship, whether it's just growing and seeing things, you know, differently... I think it's a big part of maturing and growing up for sure.

Because I went back, I traced your story back in terms of the internet and stuff, not just what I knew but what I hadn't seen, and the Feda film had passed me by the first time around.

"Oh gosh, yeah."

So I watched it and, you know, can you remember the first thing that you say in that film? It's almost like the first thing you say to the world.

"I haven't watched it in so long."

You say, "I'm scared." That's the first thing you say—I'm scared. And I thought it was such an amazing and interesting vulnerable way to begin your story on camera, especially a place like Feda where everyone's sort of puffing their chest out, trying to kind of be on Feda, and you were like, "I'm scared."

"Yeah, it's daunting. It's nerve-wracking."

I think finally, I'm at a place in my career where I feel really confident. It took me so long to get to this place, and "I'm scared" is exactly how I felt at that point in time, especially when I was putting out my first record. I felt like I was strapped to a rocket, had no idea what was happening, eyes closed, just jumping into whatever experience was thrown at me. All I wanted to do was work, all I wanted to do was write songs, all I wanted to do was perform—not really understanding all the other things that would come alongside my job.

I never really thought about, like, for me, when I was growing up and I was in the playground and I was like, "I want to make music!" or "I wanted to sing!" In my head, all I ever saw myself was being on stage as a performer, and performance being the thing that I always envisioned.

"That's such a pure ambition when you're a kid. You don't think about everything that's going to come along with that moment."

"No, exactly! And I never thought of the idea of being famous."

So it is interesting, as I'm growing in the industry and seeing the different sides of it. It's like, okay, what things do I keep for myself, and what things do I put out?

"That's so funny you say that."

Right as dilemma in some ways, I had no inhibitions; I was jumping in and experimenting and trying something new. In some ways, I was really scared to or it just took me a while to find my voice to write things that were personal to me but always encodes, never fully wanting to put myself out there just because I felt like I needed to keep something for myself. And with this album, I feel like I've managed to put so much more honesty out there and be really open in a way that I don't think I've ever had the chance to.

I also feel like when I was writing Future Nostalgia, whatever I wrote that day in the studio, that was it—that was like the end of the song! You know, maybe like a couple lyric tweaks here and there, but that was the demo I would then go and record and finish. Whereas with Radical Optimism, every single song that's on the album I've gone back in and I've rewritten it and changed it. My perspective has changed, and my story has changed and the way that I saw different scenarios or different things that had happened in my life shifted.

It was a beautiful experience to not be afraid to be like—actually, you know what? I am willing to put this out there.

There's this one song, which is the last song of the album called “Happy for You,” and I love that song because it, to me, you know, it's about seeing someone who you were with move on and be really happy for them. And I probably wouldn't have been able to write that song, you know, on my first or second record because I don't feel like I probably would have grown as a person or as an artist to be able to see someone that you loved move on or I would find it, I would have found it like difficult or that maybe there was like a childlike... you've been playing a part probably to some degree, for sure.

It comes from the idea of this fantastical ambition to go and be something, and often, you start to achieve that before you've even gotten to being it—totally. And so, yeah, you write them as a form of therapy, whatever it is in the moment. But I, I felt like I mean, I definitely I've changed so much from who I was in my first album to who I am now, emotionally. And I've grown, and I've matured, and I think you just find the sense of happiness and optimism and this kind of carefree energy of—what's meant for me is for me.

And I think perspective is something that I guess just keeps coming back.

"Perspective is an interesting word, you know?"

I don't think it comes naturally, especially at this point in your life. Like, what does perspective mean to you?

"Emotional maturity in a way."

I think my job has given me the opportunity, in so many amazing ways, to I guess grow up before my time, feel things completely differently, experience the world in a different way.

And so I feel like emotional maturity has also come from the situations that I've been thrown in. So in that sense, perspective is kind of gifted to you because you see things from so many different people's points of view.

And I think for me, writing songs for a living, I think about emotions and feelings and thoughts so much—how does this make me feel? How will this make someone else feel when they hear it? What is the energy and the emotion and the thing that I'm like trying to convey at this point in my life?

And I think by writing these songs, it's a form of therapy for me, and I get emotional maturity and perspective from all those things that allow me to grow and move on, which I'm just... I'm so grateful for.

It's just such a vulnerable thing to do is write your thoughts down into melody and then have it be consumed by other people.

"Is that the book? That's the book?"

Yeah, this is the book. This is where all the ideas for the CVSs...

"Fin?"

Exactly. Yeah, I mean, CVS is doing a pretty decent notebook right now.

"I mean, it's not—what was the first thing you wrote in it? Do you remember the first page?"

The first thing? The very first page, it says "radical optimism."

"You kidding? That's the first thing you wrote?"

Yeah, so you knew right away that this was the album title and what it was going to be.

"And you s it out?"

Yeah, it's... that’s crazy! I mean, it's not crazy, I guess, but I mean, I would have thought that that title would have maybe unveiled itself throughout the process, but you began this book almost like a creative...

"Yeah,"

I knew, I knew the title for “Radical Optimism.” It was like a term that my friend told me; I was doing an interview with him, and he was like, "You know what the world needs is radical optimism."

And I lived with that thought for so long, and it just became more and more prevalent as time went on. Your handwriting is great! Look at your handwriting.

"It's fourth of February is when I started."

Yours is like...

"Oh yeah, okay. Four. Where in the your?"

"Oh yeah, there it is."

Yeah, fourth of February was when I started writing, and I have so many notes and letters and stuff.

"And does it get really personal?"

Like, I would never ask, but would you be trepidatious to let someone just rifle through that? Because there are things in there that I would...

There's also this thing of like, you know, every single song that I've written for this record is on here, and not every single one is good. So I feel like I always have to write myself into a good idea, so there's a lot of scribbles. There are a lot of songs that I'm like, "We'll skip that!" You know what I mean?

"Yeah, but there's also like some great songs that might never see the light of day."

That is just beautiful to have because it's like a diary.

"So how does a great song not get finished and released on Radical Optimism? How does that not happen?"

Either I've lost connection to them in a personal way, or sonically I felt like it just didn't fit.

"Awesome! I really love when I see notebooks like this and I realize the people who are writing in them are treating each page almost like another piece of art."

"I like the way that you write down with the side here, and it doesn't feel..."

Yeah! They're all kind of like scrabbled.

Even the way you scribble out is so... Like, look at the way you scribble! Like what was under there?

"That's what I want to know!"

Like something I really don't want, that is like... that is canceled. That is a thought that has... you're never going to see that.

"That thought has been canceled!"

That is brutal!

So, 11th of July 2022, that was my first session with Kevin, Dany, Tobias and Caroline.

"Were you nervous in the room?"

Really nervous! Yeah, and excited, but it was also like, okay, how are we all going to connect together in the room? How's it all going to work?

I sat here on the floor; it was me and Caroline here. Kevin started right over there by the keys, and then in the soundproof room, he went and played some drums. Dany had a little desk here set up, and Tobias was just like walking around. There was just like a lot of energy, a lot of things happening at the same... it was amazing for just conjuring things from the...

"He's a vibe smith."

He's a vibe smith for sure!

And "Illusion" was the first song we wrote.

"Wow!"

And that really kicked us off. I think when we wrote that song, it also just gave us confidence as a group, you know?

"Yeah, we're going to have fun."

That we were going to have fun. It's like, okay, if this is what we can get on the first day, what can we get?

You know, we were going to work together for a week. But on the next day after "Illusion," I wrote "Happy for You."

"Oh, you went right to the end!"

Yeah, so that was 12th of July. So second day, you wrote the album closer, wow!

I'm trying to think about how that must have felt emotionally in that moment. Did you know it was going to end the album?

"I didn't know it was going to end the album."

So it could have been the center of the... it could have taken the album in a completely different direction.

"Yeah!"

1% a sad song... It's a happy song, but it's kind of a sad song.

But it's sweet.

"But it's happy! I don't know."

It feels like a real, um... it's a 180. Maturing, seeing almost like my ghost on the other side and being like, wow, you've grown so much from an experience to be able to see things from that perspective. Previous you would have written...

"Go!"

Yeah, probably!

"But this... it just... I think also in terms of relationships, like I needed to get to this place in order to find what I really needed."

You have to be in the act of forgiveness and growing and learning and being okay with the past in order to move on with what's to come next.

So, for me, "Happy for You" is a beautiful happy song because it's so reflective of my journey.

It's not all about "Happy for You," though. I mean, that song, “These Walls."

"Yeah, these walls."

Okay, so let me find that one. In a brilliant way, I mean, the concept, the idea of being in a room where what remains unspoken amongst two people is not unheard of by the materials in the room, you know?

"Yeah."

All of like personifying the walls. We got “Training Season” here, yeah!

And then “Houdini,” “Training Season” and “Houdini” were also written like a day apart.

"So much energy there."

Wow!

"Oh, you know what's interesting about this? I can tell already that just the way that you're writing it is different to how you wrote the other ones."

"It seems clear."

It's clear! It's clear! This I know! Even like the things that I've scribbled out—they're almost like...

"But it's interesting because it's like you had to be absolutely ready to write this."

Because it's almost like dictating yourself!

"When I see that, yeah, there's not as many little scribbles... your inner voice is flowing."

Yeah!

"Yeah, these walls!"

This was 16th of January 2023. It was a good day! It was a good day.

It was actually on the 15th of January, the day before, we were talking about, you know, these walls—like if these walls could talk. But it also felt like maybe it was a thing that was said so many times, you know?

It's such a cliché: "Oh, if these walls could talk, you know, what would they say?"

But I think you can feel that energy.

"I think if—if you know when you walk in a room and there have been two people who have been arguing or there's been upset, there's an energy. There's a feeling, there's a heaviness that you feel, whether you like it or not."

And a lot of the time, it's almost something that you can—

"I feel it in the studio!"

"Touch!"

Yeah, 1,000%! Like whoever's been in there before or in it, in the moment, whatever they're feeling comes across in the energy of and the state of the room.

These rooms, they capture things and they hold onto things. I mean, I think that song is a really good example of like, you know, addressing the inevitable.

"I was dialed in on this one!"

I think it's the inevitable! It's that conversation that no one really wants to have, but you have to do it. Someone has to just pull the plug and as painful as it is, it's usually for the right reasons.

"You know what's meant for you is meant for you!"

Your gut instinct will always tell you when something's right; we just don't want to listen sometimes.

"Exactly!"

What was the last thing you wrote in the book, and will it be the last thing you've written that you wrote in that book?

The last thing I wrote was the middle eight in the song "Falling Forever." And I think, yeah, that's looking like it's the last thing I've written.

"That's amazing that you've been... 'Falling Forever'? 'Letting Go'..."

Letting go of control—that is like a classic example of appreciating in the moment what it was that you had to go through to make this record.

You knew it wouldn't be enough to go from session to session and conjure it up from the atmosphere or from some magical place and then to record it wouldn't be enough.

"Oh, of course!"

Like you approached this like a significant era in your life.

"Yeah, I mean, that’s a big... my SAT return."

"It's a big growing!"

"That's your SAT return?"

"That's my SAT return!"

In a notebook? Surprised this thing isn't opening up; the leaves are flicking itself, you know? Like some poltergeist is about to come out and stuff.

"I'm not done! I have more songs!"

"No, I'm done! This chapter is like... this chapter's done!"

I did so much growing. I'm like, I feel like that is my exorcism.

"Can I have one, old man Boomer patronizing past? You're not done! There's so much there!"

"Going... but it's a new chapter!"

"Fine! Call it what you want!"

"Whatever! Whatever!"

We'll be here in ten years' time with another notebook on the table.

"Exactly! We'll talk about that one!"

I was thinking execution from any from anybody who's doing that is the greatest gift because I think the creative part of it is the safe space.

"This is a safe place!"

"When you in here for—was it a year and a half?"

"A year and a half!"

"Yeah, and you've earned the right to take your time!"

What a beautiful place to be able to analyze how you're feeling and turn that into thoughts and melody. But when it comes out, the execution on it...

"I think that is really the great gift when the artist actually decides to let it go."

"And then we get it!"

"Yeah! Well, for me, it's always, you know, this room in particular has been my home and it's been my safe space."

"This is where you recorded the vocals?"

"Right! Literally! I did everything here!"

"Here?"

"Here and on this floor and on this table! We had scribbles everywhere, dancing around the room—like everything happened here!"

"How do artists record vocals lying on the floor?"

I still... not lying on the floor, but I'd be sitting. I've got videos of just like me with an SM7. I mean, I did end up putting them on like a— a telun in the end for the final vocals, but there was some that we kept from the original demo 'cause I think it's just like the energy of doing things in the moment.

"This room has seen me through so many seasons!"

"’Cause you can see them!"

We were joking about how most studios you can't even see them!

"I went through the heat wave! I went through the heat wave in London; there was snow and rain."

And you know, I was ecstatic and so happy, and I was sad and miserable. Some days I had writer's block, and some days I felt like I wasn't getting to the crux of the, you know, the real emotion that I was trying to convey.

And I don't feel like you take any of this for granted.

"There was a quote, I think, from your dad that said you have to work really hard to achieve a little bit of luck."

"To get a little bit of luck."

"And I know that, you know, your father was in a band and made music. I wonder whether or not—and I'm assuming that was his dream, his first love, to make music—"

"And then somewhere along the line, like many of us, he moved into another part of life."

"Yeah!"

"Still loves music, but it wasn't the active thing anymore in that regard. And so, I wonder whether or not that experience impacted the way you approach your craft and your work ethic?"

What, having that kind of advice from your father from inside that experience of being a musician but knowing how hard it is and knowing that just having a dream on the playground is not going to be enough.

"I don't know."

It's so, um... I guess difficult to pinpoint it to a certain thing, but seeing my parents' work ethic, seeing them adapt to so many different things...

Well, that was... I mean, not that I saw them firsthand, but when they left C, because of the war that was happening in Yugoslavia to London, they just grafted and they hustled and worked really hard.

And then, you know, I was born in '95, and I just grew up watching them adapt to every kind of situation.

And that was, I guess, now I say it's inspiring to me, but it was all I knew; it was just what I saw them do.

And so I feel like that for sure rubbed off on me.

There was no kind of, um... this isn't going to work out option. It was like things just had to happen; things had to... there was no kind of plan B, you know?

And so I never wanted to give myself another option.

"I just wanted to try and push myself to the point—"

"It seems to me like your dreams were encouraged."

"And I mean, who lets their kid go to London at 15 on their own? I mean, it's crazy!"

"Yeah! It's scary!"

"I think about—"

"I think about it a lot."

But they had so much trust in me and dreams were really encouraged. I think no dream was too big.

I mean, I think that was always just like, okay, like what is that?

"Yeah, we'll see! We'll see!"

"I think that makes sense. There's dreams, but I think everything's also embedded in realism, you know?"

"There's kind of... that's the work ethic, though, right? The reality that like, yeah, okay, if you want this, you have to work really hard."

"And you have to get straight A's; you cannot let your schooling slip."

"Yeah, well, see, my school... it was a nightmare because I moved around so much. I went from London to Kosovo and back to London, so I was constantly again adapting and changing. And I think that's what made me so adaptable."

"That's maybe why touring is so fun for me 'cause I can kind of move around and make anywhere home."

'Cause a lot of people say it's harder to make connections and relationships work when you're moving around a lot.

"But did it... was it... did it make you... actually to your point, more adaptable and able to read people and make friendships easier because of that?"

"I felt like being the new girl a lot forces you into those situations of I'm going to have to just introduce myself. I'm going to have to like, try to make the most of—can we be friends? Let's have a conversation!"

Being vulnerable... at 15, that's with friendships. You have to give so much as well; you have to be really open. You have to put yourself on the line in order to also feel like someone else is going to give that back to you.

That's it's an exchange... of vulnerability, of closeness. And sometimes you get burnt because you're vulnerable, maybe with the wrong person, and then you know they go and tell someone else.

Especially when you're a kid, you know, you can get your heartbroken all the time. You're like, I thought we were friends!

And you went and told my secrets and, you know, whatever that is. But those situations kind of prime you for whatever life throws at you.

And I think that's one thing that I guess if I can say that I like about myself is the fact that I stay so open-hearted that regardless of things going wrong, I don't allow it to shut me down.

Maybe temporarily in the moment where I'm hurt or I have my guard up, but I don't allow it in the long run to affect me in a way where I feel like I can't be myself or I stop expressing myself because I feel like that's a double-edged sword. That's also bad for me.

I think with every relationship, with every experience, you learn about yourself; you learn about things that are, you know, F to you. What you expect, what you should be ready to give as well, I think again it goes back to that exchange of vulnerability.

I think I've had relationships which have been really hurtful, especially like earlier on, like where I feel like I've been made to feel not good enough or have made me lose my confidence.

I've had to find that again, and you learn about your own non-negotiables.

"I think that's an important thing. It's like, it's of course the right person, but it's really about the right relationship. And you find that in friendships and in love relationships as well."

Of your non-negotiables? What are you willing to give up? Like, if someone's like, "Oh, you know, maybe you have an ick" or something, or you see that someone is disloyal?

"I'm like, that's a non-negotiable! You know, I want someone who's loyal and open and honest, and that's what I'm willing to be as well in return."

You kind of figure out what those things are for you.

Are there limitations to honesty sometimes for the sake of one's feelings?

"Are there situations where you have to walk that line in order to preserve someone's balance?"

"Uh, yes and no."

I feel like going back to school and going back to friendships and being adaptable, when I've danced the line in order to not hurt someone's feelings, even though I knew the truth, or the truth... it always comes out, and so...

"Yeah! Best of intentions don't always work!"

It doesn't always work.

And so the way that I do things now in my life is very straightforward because if I'm honest, and I just say it how it is—even though it might be uncomfortable in that moment—I feel I have like a very clear conscience about it.

Also, saves time!

"1,000%!"

So then you just lay your cards out on the table.

"Can I—honest?"

Exactly! Time is a thing! Time and energy are the things that we take for granted so much as we start to develop our identity.

We think we have just undefined time and undefined energy. You need to remove certain patterns of thought and behavior in order to make space to grow. Otherwise, you're going to stay stagnant.

"I completely agree with that."

For me, it's also certain people. I have... I've always had this thing that you, especially on the basis of time, people who have been around for a really long time, you want to keep them around. You want to—

"The loyalty!"

The loyalty! You want to be there to nurture a relationship.

But some things aren't fruitful; some things are really—some things have had their time draining, and they've had their time.

And it's a lot about learning to let go.

"That's what it's all about!"

And learning to let go of control at the same time, and being free in the moment.

And it's only then when you can kind of start to see things clearly.

It's like, I can't control everything; I don't know what's going to happen next.

I have to go on the basis of what feels good, what feels like something that I really deeply connect with or someone who I really deeply connect with.

Someone who I feel like I can see eye to eye to—it doesn't have to be someone who's exactly like me.

I think opposites or people who have very different perspectives, again, is important because you want someone who challenges you.

I think the act of letting go and free falling is sometimes the hardest thing to do.

"That's it!"

I don't know much about the meaning of life, but I think it's kind of those two words: there's freedom in letting go.

I think about this record about collaborators and, and you said, you know, it's important that you have people around you that kind of push you and guide you into new territory and help you question where you are at certain moments so that you're suitably uncomfortable.

Did the band, as you call it, do that? Did Tobias and Kevin Parker and Dany do that for you on this record?

"Yeah, massively! And the band, by the way, and Caroline, it's a pretty good band, I have to say!"

We were all here, like, and it all starts with a conversation. It's like you come into the room, you're hanging out with your friends, and you're just having a tell-all, you know?

There was absolutely no holds barred; they knew all my secrets. They knew everything that was happening—

"Not that they were secrets; they were just things that I was feeling at the time, you know?"

The things that I was feeling at the time, and it's that closeness, that freedom, that idea of like no, there was no judgment.

I think that's the beautiful thing about the right relationships and friendships, is the fact that you can really be yourself.

And I could really be myself in front of Tobias and Kevin and Dany and Caroline, and everyone’s so different.

But the fact that everyone felt free to just be themselves is what I think created such a beautiful energy in the room.

You can hear it from the minute you press play on the record. I mean "End of an Era" is one of the great pop album openers for me in a long time.

I mean, it's got that beautiful chordal turnaround that's just a bit off.

"It's just a bit Underworld; it's just a bit house music!"

It's just like, it's just got that thing that makes you want to kind of keep moving with it.

But it's, you know, the vocal and the, and the really playful spoken word bit...

"And it just, it's kind of perfect way to start the record!"

"Thank you so much! I also thought to start it with a song titled 'End of an Era' makes total sense."

I also believe in, you know, manifestation!

"Yeah!"

And yeah, big time! And I, and also, you know, when I'm in the studio writing, I think about these songs being sung over a long period of time.

I think about people singing them, I think of it like a mantra.

And I'm like, if I'm going to say this over and over again, it better be something good!

"But be some good feeling! I want to bring something positive!"

And you've got your set opener if you want it.

"I mean from me, but I mean you've got your dance party for 20 minutes."

And I said the same thing to Troy, who I know you're good friends about "Rush," and I was like, "Look, so how do you manifest?"

"'Cause I mean, let me re-ask that question. Do you have an example you feel comfortable sharing where you know it's real like..."

I do! I've got situations where I know I've thought of something, and it's like, wow, that actually happened, and I just thought... felt it!

Right?

There's a lot of things that sometimes I say stuff and I go, "Okay, you be careful because that could happen."

But when I was writing my first album, and I know this is going to sound mad, but when I was writing my first album, I was kind of having thoughts about my third album.

Jumping one!

But I thought that by the third album, I would maybe be deserving of one... working with Tame Impala!

And that was written down! I had that in my notes of like, you know, that'd be cool.

And I remember talking to my A&R and my close friend Joe Kendes, and I was like, "Yeah, but I like great, great first album, but maybe I could work with Kevin Parker?"

"Can I insert something here at this point, too, from a timeline point of view, which is that at that point, Kevin Parker isn't really moving in a modern psychedelic beautiful pop space. He's still kind of... it's still the Tame Impala experience. Yeah, it's Tim."

"It's like currents."

Currents was the record that completely shook me, and you saw yourself in a situation with Kevin going, "We could work!"

"And you know, at that point 'Delusion' and 'Here Now' happened..."

"Could be something else!"

Exactly! You never know!

So that was something that I'd written down for album three, and another thing that I'd written down for album three was headlining Glastonbury.

Which is so funny 'cause at the moment that we're having this conversation, I feel I'm going to get teary talking about it.

"Well, let's go there!"

'Cause you know it's the right side of emotion.

It's a beautiful thing to be emotional about!

Back in 2017, you played the John Peel stage, and I thought that was such an amazing performance. I was living here, so I wasn't at Glastonbury; I was watching it online like everyone else who couldn't be there, wishing I was at Glastonbury.

And I watched you come out and thought, okay, Dua's having an incredible time in pop music right now. The music is connected; all the work is paying off.

Watching you come out there—and I even remember you were wearing like almost like M loose Maharishi trousers or something.

"I think baggy!"

Yeah, they were like baggy trousers with a pink fishnet top, and I remember thinking, wow, okay, she's playing at a really intense tent at a really intense festival for the first time, and you crushed it!

"It was like damn okay, pop music's grown up!"

'Cause a year or two earlier than that, I don't know... it would have been weird to think of an artist who was having that kind of run like you were, going out, having that kind of moment.

And I feel like everything changed from that day for you!

"Yeah, I mean, Glastonbury is just the festival that I've loved going to just as a fan."

"And to go up on that stage and perform... I remember moments before I went on stage, I looked out into the crowd."

I performed "Glasso" twice, and I looked out into the crowd the first time I performed. I had like a 12:15 or something slot on a Saturday...

"Terrible slot 'cause people are partying all night on Friday. Like, I don't know if anyone's going to show up!"

"It's a couple of old people with some beers in their hand, you know?"

Me! Like I don't know if anyone's going to show up.

I remember the first time looking out, and there were some people, but it was raining.

And I was like, okay, you know, it doesn't matter. I'm just going to go out there.

By the time I'd gotten out on stage, the whole place was full!

People were outside in their raincoats oozing out of the tent, and I was like, oh, this is special! Like there's something happening and like people care.

And then the second time I played was when my first album came out, and the same thing kind of happened.

I put my head out just to see how many people were there and it was like just as I was about to go on, and there really wasn't anyone.

And I was like, ah! Like no one's going to come see!

But again, I just went, do you know what? It doesn't matter. I'm going to get out, and I'm just going to perform, and I'm going to have fun!

And again, by the time that I went out, the whole thing was full, and I incredible jumped out and had the best time.

But I felt that by album three, I’d be deserving of maybe, you know, headlining or something...

"I feel I need to break the spell here and explain to everyone who's watching this that by the time this comes out, this won't be news to anybody."

"But for everybody in this room, with the exception of us and a couple of people who are watching in the monitors at the back, this is news 'cause this hasn't been announced yet."

No, so I'm not going to announce it like...

Yeah, this is the first time you've said it out loud, right?

It's the first time I've said it out loud!

"But this is the first time I've said a lot of things out loud."

This is the first time in this room I haven't even announced my album title.

And so I'm like, I'm talking to you about it.

"Oh, it's all very surreal!"

I, uh... yeah, it's my biggest dream.

"You got to say it!"

My biggest dream, I'm headlining Glastonbury on the Friday night!

"Zane, now it’s manifested!"

Now it's real! It's real!

And the crazy thing is... I mean, when I'm in the studio and I'm writing, my first thought that comes into my mind is what is this going to sound like at Glastonbury?

Like, that's the pinnacle for me.

'Cause you've seen it! It's the most human experience any festival can ever create.

It's not just about the size of the crowd or what it sounds like or anything else; it is a proper humanity-based experience.

It's like people come there to be with each other for sure and to experience something. That is the purpose of that celebration, right?

No, for me it's the most beautiful experience that I've ever had.

But seeing other people, the connection, the community, the love, the feeling that everyone shares where they just come together to have a good time—there's such a sense of freedom there.

"What, what happened? Did you get the call? Did Emily call you like..."

Yeah! I got an email at the end of my Future Nostalgia tour.

"Wow!"

I've known for a little while, for a minute.

It's been the biggest secret because you be... secrets!

"Good wow, biggest secret ever!"

But it's... working on Radical Optimism has been that thing of like...

And actually, I didn't even tell the band until we were coming towards the end of the writing and I was just like, I'm going to perform quite a few of these songs on the record at Glasto, and um I'm going to be headlining.

"I think everyone was just like..."

I think they felt the energy!

"Yeah!"

They were like, I'm so glad we put all the ifs in these songs—there that fuel me in a different way to make this, of course!

'Cause you have the destination, and you know that there's going to be that moment being in here making this music!

And deep down in your mind, you're just thinking, "What's it going to look like on stage?"

"Yeah!"

Every time I think about performing these songs, it's like a rush of electricity going through my body!

You hear it on the record; you can hear it on the record for sure!

"Will—will any of the band show up for the shows or they studio?"

I can't win like that!

"Maybe—maybe that'd be amazing!"

Wow, what a great experience! It's going to be something else.

You know, I think about the journey you've been on up to this point now.

Your third album manifesting these amazing experiences into reality, Glastonbury, all these great things.

And I think about what an interesting life you've built for yourself outside of just music, and the way that you appreciate the idea of self-ownership.

And I are afraid to take responsibility for decisions across multiple verticals in life.

"Um, your newsletter, your podcast."

"Um, getting back the ownership of your music."

"Yeah! I got to talk about that because I'm really obsessed with artist ownership."

"Um, I've experimented in other areas where I've co-owned things or tried to, and it never felt really great to me."

"It's not easy getting control over your catalog like that and over your songs like that."

Can you tell us a little bit about how you did that and what it’s meant to you to know that those songs now are under your stewardship?

I guess, in some ways, I started in this industry fairly young; I was learning the ropes as I was going into it.

I knew what I wanted out of my job. A lot of it revolved around performing.

You know, like I said, that was just my idea of my career.

And I guess along the way, you kind of understand that the music industry is also a business.

Yep, and how the, I guess... just growing in it, understanding it differently, reading the small print.

As an artist, you just want to stay in the creative lane.

You want to just be like, I just want to make my music—that's all I care about.

I think about, you know, the business side of it, but it is at the end of the day, and I had to start paying attention.

Yeah, to that.

I think, again, another part of growing up is just relying on yourself more wholeheartedly.

And being like, I want to be in control of my career; I want to know everything that's happening.

It was just important for me to have everything under one bracket—like I want to be my own business!

I want to own all my music!

I want to have my own production company that will do things, you know, under this thing that I've called Radical 22, which is a management company that I do with my dad.

"Buss!"

Yeah, which is great because we have such an open dialogue.

I think that also goes back to the early trust that I've had with my parents, and I've never felt more in control of my career.

He represents your interest brilliantly.

"I tell you, because I've asked him. He's like, well, I can ask her!"

Yeah, that's the line!

And it's the right line!

He's... but it's just like that.

Like, it's this constant open dialogue, which is incredible, and it was really what I needed in order to do the things that I love.

And so acquiring my publishing was a big step and something that I've been wanting for a long time.

And, um, also I just... I just wanted to be separated from, I guess, another entity.

I wanted to be everything under one roof.

"They're your songs! Yeah, they're your songs!"

I wanted to be the decision-maker on what happens with them and where they find a home and, you know, what happens next.

I think all those things are important, but I think I want to be the decision-maker.

What was the turning point for you when you came to that realization that being a part of the industry wasn't enough for you?

That you ultimately wanted to build your Foundation.

It's funny; everything kind of trickles back from when I was younger.

Like now talking about Service 95, when I was 15 and I just moved back to London from Kosovo, I started this blog, and it was called Dua Daily.

And I would just like random ramblings and it would be recommendations or how I made the smoothie or what I was wearing or the music I was listening to or whatever—it was for fun!

Or did you deep down know even then that this was important?

It was fun! It was purely for fun.

It was another way of me expressing myself; it was something that I loved.

And I think it just kind of came back to that: like music is my life, it's what I do.

It's the way that I have this creative outlet in a big way, but it's not the only thing that defines me, and it's not everything that I am.

And so, so yeah—Service 95 was another way of me being able to put in all my other interests and being able to commission different stories.

One thing that I've been lucky with is like the curiosity gene.

I've always wanted to learn new things. I always want to like dive in and, you know, find out about a book or find out about what's happening in different parts of the world.

And I think that interest and that curiosity has made me want to do it on a bigger, bigger scale.

I love your podcast and I love how you frame your questions; they're so direct!

"It's awesome!"

And I think you get a lot out of people because of it.

"Thank you! It's more than an exchange; it's a dance!"

"It's a dance!"

It's been eye-opening for me. Also, what I've realized is when I do long-form interviews, I can really dive in deeper and I really enjoy that.

And that's something that I enjoyed with the podcast.

I feel like I have more time to express myself, more time... sometimes my thoughts take on their own little life!

And as I'm speaking them, then I'm like, oh, it all makes sense!

"That's what I mean!"

You know, it's having that space.

And I feel like you provide a beautiful space!

And I feel like I can really talk about my experiences freely.

And I think that's the key; it's much easier than when everything's, you know, bite-sized or you have these five-minute interviews, and you can never really quite get to the end minutes.

Exactly! It's quick; it's like bite size!

So that kind of changes the feeling.

But these are the things that I live for—like these deep conversations!

"I love that!"

Will you keep going? Will you keep doing it?

"Yeah, I will, man!"

"So much research goes into it; time goes into it. So it's a lot of like... you know, you have to... I listen to all their other podcasts and watch the documentaries and read the book and, you know, all before I have to interview them."

So who are you most nervous before you spoke to?

"Cook?"

Get out of here!

"I swear! I was so nervous 'cause I didn't know what to expect!"

Yeah, you know, I mean, I think I'm allowed to say this, although we're very careful about how we talk about our inspiring and earthw leader, but he's awesome!

"He is! He's amazing!"

And he was so easygoing and fun and had a light energy.

Tim is, you know, if he shows up, he wants to do it!

'Cause he doesn't have to, and he came to the house!

He came to mine to hang out!

It was lovely; we had a great time, and he made me feel at ease.

I hope... I think I made him feel at ease.

Who surprised you? Who was the one in conversation that went there to places that you really felt you weren't expecting, and you emerged from it feeling different than when you started?

You know, I've had so many conversations that I feel like I've been spoiled with—spoiled by surprise!

I think I leave a lot of them quite moved, but speaking to Bryan Stevenson, um, the civil rights lawyer who helps get people off death row, that was an unbelievably moving conversation.

I think one where I've left feeling so grateful, one for him but also seeing the kind of people we have in the world that are so selfless, so giving, so dedicated to other people.

I found him just incredibly moving, I think as a overall.

But even speaking to someone like Monica Lewinsky and seeing all the work that she had to do after being what—patient zero of the internet.

You know, the first person to get the first dragged mh online and the effect that that had and how she's now changed it into trying to help other people after what she...

You know, people always say "Oh, history will be kind to that person" or "history won't be kind to that situation."

But the internet doesn't wait around to find out and that's the thing that's most unsettling for me is that when opinion gets formed there, it's like, well, no one's going to let history figure this out over time or give it the context in the moment that it deserves to create proper discourse to actually identify the nuances of what's going on here and figure it out.

It's just thrash!

I don't know how you grew up on it to some extent!

"Yeah, I grew up! I grew up with it!"

Which maybe gave me a little bit different ‘cause I felt like maybe I had a bit more control over it in some ways.

I think more about the younger generation where it's just there and people have already created such an identity with it, and how you present yourself and how important your social persona is.

I think while I was growing up with it, it was still silly—a lot of random pictures on Facebook and in, you know, it was constantly evolving and I was growing with it.

It's definitely a love-hate relationship.

Again, it's like that give-and-take, but it's so relentless, I think, and so unforgiving.

And so insatiable!

To your point, in terms of what we expect from the people we admire, I think it's got to be hard when you find your voice, use it, and then people want to hear it.

Yeah, to sometimes project with it in ways that you know are going to be really rewarding for you.

"I think it's got to be really tough being someone inspiring these days."

"I think it's got to be hard to know what you can and can't say."

I think you stand up for things that you believe in, and Service 95 being an example of that, and I've always—and I mean this, you know, in a really caring way—hopefully it comes across that way.

I've always watched you kind of go... I don't know how to respond to that.

And we just got there again because I think it's tough!

I think it's... there's not even a question there!

I can leave it at that.

I think what you do with Sunny Hill, even just something as simple as putting a festival on and then going back home and giving people a reason to celebrate and dance and listen to music, the way I like to think about it and the way I decide to speak up on anything, I'm like, I hope this is for the greater good of more than just one person, you know?

And it's a fine line; I never want to alienate anyone.

I never want to make anyone feel bad.

I never want to create any kind of, um... I don't know—deeper pain than there already is, I guess, in the world by what I choose to say.

Yeah, it's just, I think what I go on is, I feel like this is something beneficial, and I hope that people see that and see the intention, you know, when I speak up about things.

It's interesting when you're a musician or especially a female pop star.

People go like, just shut up and just sing your songs!

You know, they don't want you to have a, have an opinion or have something to say.

I think that people are very much used to maybe another air of mystery behind the artists that they like.

So then your thoughts or your beliefs or whatever aren't aligning with what they want you to be.

The very nature of that statement from anyone's point of view and direction of the artist is conditional.

It's like, we want you to be available under conditions, right?

"Yeah, and it's be what I want you to be!"

And not who you are!

"Kind of ownership!"

Yeah! And I think, as a fan, I can relate to that, but at the same time, as I'm having more conversations in this space with artists like yourself who are like, I'm not really built like that, I'm realizing that that trade is outdated.

For sure! And some people are going to let you down, and some people, you know, are going to lift you up, and you're going to feel even more connected to them.

But I think one thing that we all have to remember is each of us have our own identity; each of us have our own thought process.

Each of us are also figuring all out; no one has the answers!

We shouldn't be putting anyone on a pedestal of like this person is, you know, they know everything because they can let you down in a heartbeat! You never know!

Of course!

But, I think, you know, for me, it's just like, I'm just going to say what I feel from the heart and try and, especially, you know, with Service 95, it's like whatever stories we tell, whatever, you know, articles we commission—it's like who gets to tell those stories?

I don't want to tell them all from a western lens. I want it to be global! I want it to be from all over the world so it's like, you know, crafted in a way that everyone's heard and things are seen, you know, from everyone's perspective.

And I think that is—that's really important!

It's that fine line.

What role does criticism play in your life now?

How do you apply it in a way that's healthy?

Well, it's interesting; I think everything comes in stages and waves.

There can be a moment where people really love you, and you feel so supported, and you're like, oh, this is great!

You know, especially in the beginning, I was doing interviews and people were like, how do you deal with hate?

And I'm like, I don't get any hate! Like, it's great!

And then that changed really quickly.

Yeah!

And I remember even when it was like Grammy's Best New Artist nomination, and I'd won it, and there were people online being like, she's not deserving of it!

"She's got no stage presence; she can't do this; she's not well equipped to..."

"She's not even, you know, she won't be here next year!"

"There was a lot of that!"

That fueled me in a way.

I try and not use criticism as this like revenge—why not?

Thing, it does... pushes you!

Juice is really good.

It's the best!

So I think, you know, whenever I see or feel or read anything that goes against what I know is coming or what I've been doing or how hard I've been working or whatever it is, I just kind of take a step back, and I just go, okay, none of this is background noise and I should just stick on my path.

Because every time someone has doubted me, I've proved them wrong.

And for me, I'm like this is fueling me; this is like pushing me to be better, to work hard!

And I get a real kick out of proving people wrong!

Boom! Boom! There it is!