Kellye Testy on the importance of going into law during the coronavirus pandemic | Homeroom with Sal

Foreign hi everyone sal khan here from khan academy want to welcome you to our daily live stream. This is just a way for us to stay in touch and have interesting conversations. Uh we started it during times of school closures because obviously we're all social distance and it's that much more important to stay in touch. Uh but we think it'll be fun even potentially beyond if we hopefully we get through this period sooner than later.

I do remind everyone that we are not for profit and the only way we're able to do all of what we do and especially all the things that we're trying to do around covid19 support is through philanthropic donations from folks like yourself. I do want to give a special shout out to several of our corporations who've stepped up especially since the crisis: Bank of America, Google.org, AT&T, Fastly and Novartis for stepping up and the many other supporters before that. We can't do this work.

Many of y'all might wonder how is this free? It's because of those philanthropic donations and khan academy is much more than myself; it's over 200 full-time folks working around the world and obviously we need resources in order to do this work. So I'm super excited about today's guest. I have Kelly Testy from the Law School Admissions Council joining us and uh Kelly good to see you.

It's great to see you and uh so great to be with you. We love the khan academy, we love the Law School Admissions Council. Uh so so we'll talk a little bit about our relationship. I'll remind everyone to go on to whether you're watching this on youtube or facebook and go on the message boards, ask any questions you'd like of Kelly and myself. And Kelly is expert on all things law and law school so uh I don't think we're gonna actually be giving legal advice but careers, careers in law maybe. Maybe we will, I don't know. Ask us anything, ask us anything.

But but Kelly maybe a good place to start is what is the Law School Admissions Council? Well we love to basically help students find their way to law school. We think of ourselves as an organization that helps advance equity in law and we help candidates find a good match when they're looking for a law school and make sure that we provide the support they need to continue their enrollment journey. You know so a lot of people don't have lawyers in their family. You know I'm a first-generation college grad and law school grad and so we really try and reach out and provide a lot of information and build the pipeline for justice.

And uh most famously, you know the the Law School Admissions Test, which actually I took. I was pre-law for a period of time; we will go there. Uh but I'm curious, you know one of the things that I like to do in these live streams is just understand how our guests ended up in the path they are in. And you mentioned your first-generation college graduate. What what got you into the law profession? What was kind of your career arc from maybe thinking about going to law to now being the head of the Law School Admissions Council?

Sure, well it's a little convoluted because I started my life out wanting to be a quarterback on an NFL team. Um but my dad told me I was a little short for that so I should you know think up something else. But in all seriousness, I was very avid into sports when I was in high school and in college and so it really wasn't until I was a sports reporter and so I majored in journalism and then I found a class called communications law that I just fell in love with.

And from that minute on, I knew I really wanted to think about law school. So I had a little time in between undergrad and law when I worked in sales and marketing and then went to law school and have been so happy I did. There's so many things you can do with a law degree and I really enjoyed being in this profession.

And what was it about that course in communications law that got you hooked? You know we were asked to go to the law librarian to find it on the campus and to go in and read a famous case that was about what's called libel, which is when you say something negative about a public figure, and could you be held responsible for damages for that? This case is called New York Times versus Sullivan and it's a famous one. We were supposed to find it and read it and I don't know really still what it was but the minute I walked in that law library and I started reading that case, I realized the law is made up of stories. You know everyone has a story and these cases are the stories of times when people may have had a difficult time in their life or a challenging issue.

And so I loved reading their story and seeing how the law can help people find a voice and find justice. And then how did that trajectory keep going? I actually felt similar things; I took a business law class while in business school and I just was enamored by it and obviously I was pre-law for a moment in undergrad too so I was definitely intrigued. I read that book 1L and I was really intrigued by it but the um so how did you go from law school to where you are now? What was uh you know your path?

Well and let me just say I know you keep pretty busy and we love what you do but I can still uh talk to you about law school. You know my mom would might like that: law and medical school, that's right exactly! So I really enjoyed law school and I went to Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana which is where I'm from. And I was so fortunate to grow up in a town with a big state university and I went there undergrad and law school.

And after law school I had the honor to clerk for a federal judge and I learned a lot during that year about watching the judges hear the cases and the lawyers argue the cases. And uh I decided then that I really was interested in being in the teaching side of law. There were things about legal education that I liked but also things I thought could be better. And so I was interested in being a law professor so I started my career teaching law school and was a professor teaching classes in the business law area and also in the law and inequality area: things like race and law, gender and law, law and sexuality and really enjoyed that.

After a few years I was asked to serve as the dean of the law school where I was teaching and I did that for about five years and then I became the dean of the University of Washington School of Law for eight years prior to coming to the Law School Admission Council. And I was really intrigued by the Law School Admission Council because I'd always tried to work for educational equity. I believe so strongly in the power of education and so this is a place where we can really help even the playing field and help candidates advance their educations.

You know and I definitely want to get into that, talking about the, we're already getting a lot of questions on youtube about the LSAT and COVID. But before we get to all of that, I'd love your thoughts on what are some of the misconceptions about the law career or stereotypes? I guess what are accurate stereotypes and what are less than accurate stereotypes? Well I think one of the first things I would say about that is that many times when people think about what is a lawyer, what comes to mind first is perhaps a judge or a lawyer who is in court. And that is part of what lawyers do but lawyers are also, I like to say, you know problem solvers in every field and they're also in many ways referred to sometimes as engineers for justice.

You know the law is what gives our world the possibility to thrive by enforcing contracts and making sure people keep their commitments. And so really lawyers work in every single field that there is and you know I like to say that you know if you think of a university or the world, law is kind of at the middle of the hub. Every other thing has a connection to it and so no matter what your passion, if it's environment or civil rights or music and representing athletes or arguing in court or building businesses up and helping technology firms thrive, lawyers do all those things and more.

I like that uh for that phrase you mentioned engineers for justice. Uh you know I remember being surprised uh when I was an undergraduate I said maybe I'll be going to law and I remember I you know I started taking practice tests for the LSAT and I was like this is like a computer science exam. You know it has these deductive reasoning problems, these games and obviously some reading comprehension and logic. Why do you think that's, you know why do you think that's the core of the LSAT? This like logic, this deductive reasoning etc.

I mean that appealed to me as someone who had a very strong math and engineering background and you know most people don't see that connection. No it's true but the math majors do really well in law school and uh so do music majors and so do many majors. I mean one of the fun things about law school is it takes people from every major and all of them you know can thrive. So I think really, you know the LSAT is designed to test the basic skills that it takes to be successful in law school and so it's not just a test, it's a way to build your skill that you're going to need when you get there.

And we've loved having the free test prep through the Khan Academy because we know that really helps that skill building but cell lawyers are in many ways; they're creative problem solvers. They have to learn to think really creatively and to be able to what I sometimes call look around corners. In other words, you know, what comes next? You know what's going to happen next? How do you navigate uncertainty? And so the skills that the LSAT tests are exactly the ones that one needs to be able to do well as a lawyer and those are things like reading really critically and understanding what you're reading, thinking with reason and logic, being able to reason from evidence.

And so uh those are the skills that will really help you be of great use to your clients because you'll be able to help them solve their problems. No and I really like your point. You know I think all too often we either perceive ourselves or we perceive other people as oh they're math people, they're science people, they're you know good, they're eloquent, they're law people. That's kind of one of the stereotypes or they're good writers or whatever it might be. But the reality is I always like to give the example of Abraham Lincoln. Abraham Lincoln obviously practiced law but he thought to make himself a better lawyer, he actually learned all of the geometry proofs in Euclid's elements and actually James Garfield, another lawyer, he actually has a novel proof of Pythagorean theorem which he did while sitting in the U.S. House of Representatives.

So there's actually more cross connections than I think most people realize. You know talking about our relationship with Khan Academy and the LSAT and we'll talk more about that but you know one question from youtube, Mark Murray asks how can we increase diversity in the legal profession? So I'd love your take on that generally and then I'd also love your take on how hopefully our partnership might play a role there. Sure, well diversity and equity are so critical for law because our legal profession really needs to mirror society so that people trust it and so that we can really see all the issues that arise in a diverse world. So the Law School Admission Test and the Law School Admission Council, our whole origination story is around equity. We were formed to help even the playing field so that it didn't depend just on who you knew or which school you went to.

You could actually show the skills you have and be able to get attention for what you deserve, which is how you think about complex problems. So we really prioritize building the pipeline to law school because as I noted, it's not always clear that some people know how to go to law school. Some people know that pathway, some people have good mentors, others may not. And so we really try and build the pipeline and open that window up so we can say you know we need your voice in law too. And the more diverse those voices in law, the more law will get closer to that quest for equal justice and that's what we all strive for, is to really merge law and justice. And so we know that diversity and equity are critical parts of that.

And a related question from youtube, Laity asks how does the LSAC support encourage first-generation and low-income students to apply for law school? And I'll just add to that, you know you said you're a first-generation college student and law student. What would you tell to the students out there who are thinking well it's kind of intriguing, it seems like a great profession but it's you know after undergrad, I got, after it's three more years I'm probably going to have to incur debt. Tuition doesn't seem cheap. What would you tell them if they're thinking about it?

You know I think the most important thing I would tell them is you know, we really need you. You know the coming out of the COVID crisis and with all the struggles our world has for equality and for justice, we really need voices like yours in the legal profession. So I want you to know that the students who do go, it is an important investment but they're really glad they did. The careers are very diverse and fulfilling and we do a lot to help you on that enrollment journey. We have the free LSAT prep through the Khan Academy, also at LSAC.org we have a lot of resources there to help candidates understand how to navigate that pathway.

And then we work with our member law schools and they all do a lot of outreach and what we call pipeline building too to help introduce students to what it means to go to law school and how to do that well. And I think that one of the things that are is just so critical is that you know lawyers are really a wonderful group about mentoring new students. And so you know we love to share our you know actual thoughts about what it means to be in law because some people I think have too narrower view of what it means to be a lawyer. One of the best examples I like to give of that soul is that I'll often hear someone say you know I have three kids and one of them they just argue with me all the time, so that I told him hey go to law school. Well what I want to say is yes that person may want to go to law school and do well as a as an advocate.

But if one of those children is a peacemaker, we need you to. You know law is a peacemaking profession as well. It builds a lot of common understanding, it builds agreement, negotiation. It finds ways to bring people together and move forward collectively. So whether you're the one who argues or you're the peacemaker, there's room for you in law.

Now I'll just doubly underline that we actually have great internal counsel here at Khan Academy. Her name's Julia Cowles and what I appreciate about her is you know a lot of people have these stereotypes that lawyers are you know they're either always risk averse or they're trying to stick it to the other person or they're trying to kind of overwhelm everyone with really hard to understand terminologies and so everyone feels a little bit lost.

But the really great lawyers, and I would consider Julia to be one of them, they know how to you know your language has to be precise as a lawyer so that both parties don't later say hey I thought this. No, no, no, no this is what we agreed to. So if the language is precise then everyone knows what's going to happen and you're less likely to get into a disagreement later. But then also around the problem-solving, around can you make that language precise but both parties don't think that they're on kind of the losing end of the deal and I think the best lawyers are definitely those problem solvers and we definitely have one here at Khan Academy.

A question from Facebook, Lorraine A. Lara asks would you consider this a path for someone who's middle-aged? You know I would. My oldest student ever that graduated was a doctor who graduated when he was 82 and he had decided wanted a law degree. Yeah always middle-aged, he was awesome. So no, it's true that many people go to law school right after college, but I had almost six years in between undergrad and law school and many people have more years than that.

And so it's a great profession and honestly when you've worked in some other discipline, many times you can then use what you learned there and merge it with law and enhance your career that way. So law school really does welcome people from very diverse backgrounds. You know any major, any kind of you know many ages and the other thing that's so important too that I want to say is that we also are working with our schools and we in our schools really are serious about it when we say we welcome diverse students we mean that widely: viewpoint, race, and ethnic diversity and also a key area today is disability rights.

And that's something that we've been working really hard to open doors for opportunity to more candidates who need accommodations and testing or need accommodations in pursuing their educations. Yeah, and from YouTube just going into this COVID crisis, you know I'm curious generally how you're coping and how uh the the whole organization, the legal profession. But Laity asks in specifically how is LSAC administering the LSAT and the law school application during COVID-19?

Yeah that's a great question and we had to move very quickly to take the Law School Admission Test into a format that could be administered remotely. So once we realized that you know COVID was going to restrict travel and gatherings for some time, we couldn't give the test in the field. So our developers and personnel worked day and night to convert the LSAT to a system that could be delivered and you can take it from home with remote proctoring and that's begun. And that way we can make sure the candidates continue their enrollment journey so it's really important for us to be able to do that and we're going to do that as long as we need to while this crisis is on.

The other thing we've done is that we've been horrified by how much this crisis has affected the world in different ways based on, again, inequality and so we've really been redoubling our efforts on diversity and equity. We've been doing a lot of webinars for candidates and also for our schools to try and support everyone through this time but that's a really good question. And what might have taken two years to do we were able to really do very quickly because we needed to. We had to help and uh I was really proud of how LSAC responded.

And just following up on that, what are trends or are there trends that you think are going to happen because of COVID-19? Do you think applications will go up, they'll stay the same? Do you think more people are thinking about graduate school? Yeah I think that we're going to see strong demand for education. I mean obviously there's a lot of uncertainty right now about what will the fall look like and will it be will people be back to campus or not? Will it still be you know that everyone will need to be learning remotely for a while but many students are familiar with that, they're comfortable with it.

And so we're seeing still very, very strong demand for legal education for this coming fall and then the cycle where people start to think about applying for next falls beginning as well and again it's still very strong. And I think that one of the areas that I've always encouraged students to think about is in timing. You know when do I go to law school is always think about well what's my option? You know and if and right now the economy is fairly disrupted. You know in many areas severely and so I think that in a time when employment's difficult, investing in education is a really great solution.

And so I am hoping and anticipating that we'll still see a very strong demand for legal education and I'm glad of that because we need it. This crisis has really shown so many areas that lawyers are going to have to help rebuild and you know the rule of law needs to be respected and strong and the devastation that's been wrought by this pandemic and continues to be is something lawyers are going to have to help with and help repair.

Yeah and how do you see uh what are law schools talking about right now in terms of campus openings? Are they just following whatever their the the universities they're part of doing it? Will, can you have an effective legal education if you know the first semester of the first year is done over video conference of some kind? You know it's a hard question because legal education is a personalized form of education. You know we don't do a lot of just lecturing. We really engage with students and have a lot of discussion, we do a lot of hands-on, you know experiential education where you're actually working with real clients and you know solving real problems.

So it has taken the creativity of the law schools and they've responded in amazing ways and had to respond as we all did so quickly. So um you know I know this year I was teaching law leadership at Villanova and so you know one day I walked out of my classroom not realizing I wouldn't be able to walk back in. And we quickly took the course online. Well that's being done you know all across the world and um I think that as the fall comes since the schools have had even more time to prepare for that, we'll see an even stronger version of that if it's not possible to bring the students back to campus.

And right now I wish I had an answer to that and everyone does. I think that everyone is preparing to try and bring some form of education back to campus but that's something that the schools and universities are working closely with government officials on too to make sure it's safe to do so because obviously the safety of students is paramount. So I think that there's a lot of contingency planning happening: some of you know maybe some in person, some online. What if it has to stay online for a certain amount of time but I really feel a lot of confidence in the enormous work the schools are doing to prepare for that and they care about the students and they'll put them first and do well by them.

Yeah no that's that's super helpful and yeah super unturned. I don't know, I don't think anyone really knows how this next year is going to play out but I think everyone's doing pretty pretty heroic jobs. I mean a somewhat random question from youtube, Maha Kirkowitz it says do you know Ruth Bader Ginsburg? I certainly know of her and I've met her and had the great pleasure of hearing her speak a number of times and uh what a wonderful figure for our world and I admire her so very much not only her work as a justice but the work she did as a lawyer before that as an advocate for uh for women in the law and an advocate on gender equity more broadly.

So she's uh she's one of the real heroes of justice I think for many of us today. Yeah and just just as a final question I'll just kind of group a bunch of these questions. You know there's some questions like is law school hard or how can I get through it? You know I think there's these, you see in the movies these people piling over these you know seemingly dense books and they imagine that's law school. Someone who's an engineer pre-obese talking about would I make a good lawyer? So you know just maybe parting thoughts on anyone who's like wow law seems interesting but it seems hard, whatever that might mean.

What would you tell them? Uh what advice would you give or just life advice generally? Yeah so I guess in terms of law school itself, let me say that you know when I started law school I had no idea what to expect and I was worried it would be so hard and and something that you know could be out of reach. But I want to say that it is really supportive today. Legal education has changed a lot from the 1L book or the paper chase movie you might have seen and the faculty members are so supportive and there's great infrastructure for student support and academic support, career support, you name it.

So I really know that today law students can thrive and they get the support that they need. Now that's not to say that it isn't a rigorous form of education; much of its value is that it is and you will learn to think hard in law school and you will learn to really contribute to the world in so many ways and to really help people. You know, I think at its heart when you get a law degree and you get your license, you now have a license to help people, to make change in the world, to do good in the world.

And that's something that I really think most of us really want to find an avenue for. We see the ways that our world is beautiful, it is in some ways broken and many others and we need to repair that. We need to work to make sure that everyone has a chance to thrive in this world and that's really what law does; it tries to make sure that everyone has a chance to flourish. So I think if you have a passion for wanting to make the world a better place, there's really no better investment you can make than learning the law and following your passion in whatever direction that takes you.

Well Kelly, you've inspired me and so thank you. Thank you so much for being part of this. I think you've just inspired a good chunk of new future lawyers who can hopefully be the type that can bring justice to the world for us all. Well I think they can and I want to say thanks to you. You know you and the Khan Academy that you inspire all of us and uh you know educational equity is so critical and so thanks for all you do to make that so broadly available. We really love our partnership with you and look forward to it continuing.

Likewise, thank you so much, Kelly. My pleasure, great to be with you. So thanks everyone for joining. I thought another very inspiring live stream guest especially if you're thinking about the legal profession and I look forward to seeing you all tomorrow where we're going to have the superintendent of Miami-Dade on. So that should be a really interesting conversation. I'll see y'all tomorrow.