End the Tyranny in Iran | Masih Alinejad | EP 324

So the Hebrews created history as we know it. Don't get away with anything. And so you might think you can bend the fabric of reality and that you can treat people instrumentally and that you can bow to the Tyrant and violate your conscience without cost. You will pay the piper; it's going to call you out of that slavery into Freedom, even if that pulls you into the desert. And we're going to see that there's something else going on here that is far more Cosmic and deeper than what you can imagine.

The highest ethical Spirit to which we're beholden is presented precisely as that spirit that allies itself with the cause of Freedom against tyranny. I want villains to get punished, but do you want the villains to learn before they have to pay the ultimate price? That's such a Christian question. On the one hand, we have these fundamentalist proclivities that seem to manifest themselves in Islam and also in other religions, and then we have the problem of having to maintain peaceful relationships with the Islamic culture as a whole.

And it's not easy in the west to figure out how to do both of those at the same time. Why? I mean, I don't get it. Why? Okay, why? Look, I'm coming from a Muslim family. I'm not against my mother, I'm not against my father. I want separation between religion and politics. Here in America, we have the First Amendment, we have freedom of expression, we have free media—we can criticize whoever we want. But in my country, when you criticize harmony, you pay a huge price, which is your life.

So that's why it is too much to ask that when it comes to Iran, when it comes to the Islamic Republic, we have to get united. We have to get all together. You have to see this as a bipartisan issue; otherwise, believe me, the Islamic Republic will get united via Putin, with Maduro, China—all the dictators—and they will end democracy.

I've been wanting to cover the Uprising in Iran for quite a long time and finally made arrangements to do that and have the privilege today of speaking with Mazzy Elena Jad. She is an Iranian journalist and a rare example of an honest and unwavering reporter. Even more impressive is that she began her career reporting on her own government, taking punishments such as her arrest in 1994 for distributing leaflets with critical views or her dismissal from her job as a parliamentary reporter in 2005 for publishing an article that called out the parliament for taking massive bonuses in secret while publicly claiming they had taken pay cuts.

In 2018, she released a book, "The Wind in My Hair," which was critical of the Iranian government's depiction, expectation, and oppressive treatment of women. She's the founder of the My Stealthy Freedom Campaign against compulsory hijab, which since its launch in 2014 has become the largest civil disobedience campaign for women's rights in the history of the Islamic Republic.

In 2022, the American Jewish Committee awarded her the Moral Courage Award for speaking out fearlessly in support of the Iranian people who are still being oppressed, to put it mildly, by their own institutions. She currently lives in exile in New York City under FBI protection since a coordinated kidnapping attempt by the Islamic Republic of Iran's intelligence ministry was foiled in 2021.

"Hello, Missy. Thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today."

"Thank you so much for having me, Jordan."

"Yeah, so I don't know. Are you a brave person? Are you a foolhardy person? Can you just not control yourself? Like, you're putting yourself in an awful lot of risk here. And so we'll walk through why that is and why. Why do you think you're compelled to do that? And it looks like you've been doing that to some degree almost your whole life, right? Even as a very young person?"

"Yeah, so what is it about you that makes you unable to... what would you say... behave properly? That might be a way of thinking about it."

"That's funny. I mean, when you put it in that way that maybe you cannot control yourself or you're really brave. This is what my mom used to say. Because I remember that in my tiny village, I was a troublemaker, and people were like telling me that you cannot control yourself. And that was the way they were actually describing my attitude. I've been told all my life what to do, what not to do. So I had two options in my tiny village: to listen to those who make decisions over my body, over my everything, or to be a rebel. So for me, being brave or being fearless is something that I grew up with. You know, otherwise, I had to feel miserable every single day. Here in America, people might take every single freedom for granted, but I had to fight for every single thing that I have now. Everything.

I had a little brother who was able to jump in the river in my beautiful village, who was able to go to Stadium to play football, to go, you know, everywhere that he wanted to, to dance, to sing, everything. But I was banned from doing all those activities just because of being a girl. So that's why I had to fight for every single thing, and I have to be brave."

"Yeah, well, it is clear that most people under those conditions will submit to being obedient and to stay silent, and certainly, that's been the case in Iran for 30 years almost, 25 years anyway since the Revolution. And although obviously more and more women are speaking out now and, of course, more and more Iranians in general, but the run-of-the-mill situation after the Revolution was that most women bore their, what would you say, forced submission and something approximating silence. And that is the normal run of things. And I do think there is something temperamental about it. I mean, when you read the accounts of your childhood, it's pretty obvious that right from the beginning you were a hard person to push down. And it's very interesting to see how different people react under different situations.

Do you want to walk us through your origins and talk about your early life a bit so that everybody understands where you came from and what your life was like? And we'll talk about that in parallel with the political situation in Iran."

"Sure. I mean, I don’t think Iranian women are obedient at all, women in the Middle East. I mean, all of them, they are rebels because to us, it's the way to get our dignity back, our identity back. There is a famous saying, actually, in Persian—if you want Iranian women to do something, tell them not to do it. So anyway, we'll practice our civil disobedience. Look, I was only two years old when the Islamic Revolution happened. I remember I used to actually challenge my parents: ‘Why did you overthrow the regime?’ And they were saying that it was because of poverty. We wanted to have a good life, and now what happened? We’re getting poorer every day, and the corruption.

I mean, only the relatives of the mullahs are getting richer. And I was actually challenging my fellow journalists, activists, editors: ‘Why did you overthrow the regime? Why did you take part in the Revolution?’ And they were saying that it was because we wanted to gain more political freedom. What happened? The Islamic Revolution became a revolution against women. So clearly, we lost all the freedom that we already had. Women were allowed to go to a stadium; women were allowed to choose whether they want to wear hijab or not; women were allowed to choose any kind of sports that they wanted to join. We had female judges, we had female ministers, we had female singers—Jordan, in the 21st century now, women are not allowed to sing. So you see, we didn't gain any political freedom, but we lost all the social freedom that we already had.”

“So, that is why for women in Iran, every single day is like you are part of the war that has been imposed on us by the clerics, by the mullahs, by the Islamic Republic. And it's not a fair battle. It's not a fair war because they have guns and bullets; they have power, prison, money—they can execute you. We only have our body, we only have our voice, we only have our social media. And I had to use every single thing, like my body, my voice, my hair, my social media to fight them back. So that is why I don't think Iranian women, or women in the Middle East, women in Afghanistan, as you see right now, can accept everything.

I mean, our body became like a political platform for Taliban, Islamic Republic, and ISIS, and they write their own ideology on our body, and we have to carry it every day. We don’t accept that. So that is why this isn't in our nature.”

"Let's walk through the situation in 1979. So, I'm about 20 years older than you, I believe. And so I can remember a lot of what happened in that period. And in the West, the state that was run by the Shah of Iran was very unpopular, especially among left-wing activists. They regarded it as a corrupt petrol state and believed that the Shah was fundamentally an oppressive autocrat. And certainly, by western standards, his government could have been radically improved.

But the consequences of the Iranian Revolution, as you pointed out, were certainly not what anyone had hoped for, except the tiny minority of people who actually instigated the Revolution. And so we went from an autocracy that was much more liberal, in the manner that you describe, especially in relationship to women, and where a fair bit of economic progress had been made, despite the flaws of the regime, to an unbelievably repressive theocratic state. And one of the things that you point out is that one of the elements of this Islamic revolution—a peculiar element—was the focus of repression on women.

And so I'm very curious about that. What do you think it was about the doctrine that drove the Iranian Revolution that caused the primary consequence, perhaps, or arguably at least, the primary consequence to be the large-scale elimination of women from almost every form of freedom? What was it about the doctrine that produced that?"

"Yeah, well, it's not only about women. Let me actually give you an example about how minorities are being oppressed. Right after the revolution, mass executions happened, and I remember that when the Jews were being executed, people were saying that right after the revolution, ‘We're not Jews, so we're not gonna get involved.’ Then the Baha'i minority got executed. Look, Ibrahim Raisi—you see the Butcher of Iran, who is now the president, which we don't call it president, but he's in charge—he was the one who actually ordered mass executions. More than 5,000 people got executed by his order. You know, and then women. And then women. You know, it's just—it's very heartbreaking.

I cannot even believe that I'm sitting here in the 21st century and talking to you, and telling you the same person who ordered mass executions right after the revolution, the Islamic revolution, was the one welcomed here at the United Nations. I cannot believe that because he is actually the one right now, right now saying that the young political prisoners, the young protesters who were peacefully protesting over the brutal death of Mahsa Amini, the 20-year-old girl who got killed because of a little bit of her hair was visible, now all those protesters are in prison, and Ibrahim Raisi is saying that we're going to be tough with them; they have to see the punishment.

So you see this. I mean, back to like 40 years ago, the whole world was supporting the revolution. They were actually congratulating the Islamic Republic right after the regime was overthrown. But now, many people are blessing the Shah of Iran in the streets, and many people believe that yes, of course, there was something like should be reformed, but not revolution. You know, but now we need a revolution. Many people in the West are saying that, you know, buying actually, buying the wrong Narrative of the Islamic Republic and its lobbyists and apologists, and saying that let's wait for the reform. No, this is the time. We need a revolution. Because the Islamic Republic, acting like ISIS—like ISIS.

I mean, to millions of Iranian people, the Islamic Republic is an ISIS with oil. ISIS just behead people. The Islamic Republic hang people. ISIS took hostages. This is what the Islamic Republic did 40 years ago when they took American diplomats hostage. Yes, of course, they released them all, but they still— they still have women like hostages. We are like hostages in the hand of the Islamic Republic. If we don't cover ourselves, we won't be able to get any kind of education or job or we won't exist if we don't cover our hair in Iran in the 21st century. So it means the Islamic Republic took the whole nation, they took Iran hostage."

"Black Rifle Coffee Company is on a mission to build a support network for veterans, first responders, and law enforcement by serving you the best coffee you've ever had. Thanks to your support, that dream has become a reality. This year alone, Black Rifle Coffee donated over 120,000 bags of coffee to veterans and first responders while expanding their own team of active-duty service members, veterans, and veteran family members.

If you want to continue supporting this incredible company, go to BlackRifleCoffee.com and use promo code Jordan at checkout for 10% off your purchase and your first coffee club order. Black Rifle Coffee is roasted by a veteran-led team of expert coffee graders here in the U.S. And remember, it’s your support that gets gear funding and supplies into the hands of those on our front lines.

The producers of the show, myself included, love Black Rifle Coffee and find it the perfect go-to for the morning commute to work as well as work itself. Black Rifle Coffee gives us the boost we need expertly mixing bold flavor and that much-needed kick of caffeine. So go to BlackRifleCoffee.com and use promo code Jordan for 10% off. You can also find Black Rifle Coffee in grocery and convenience stores near you. Black Rifle Coffee: America's coffee and our preferred blend to enjoy alongside the Jordan B. Peterson podcast."

"A lot of what you write about in the early part of your book, 'The Wind in My Hair,' is the increasing range of restrictions that you experienced as you grew up. You talk about when you were quite young playing with your brother and having a reasonable amount of freedom when you were extremely young. But then as you grew up and became more conscious as well, the number of things that you couldn't do started to increase and your range of options started to decrease. And so maybe we could walk through that.

And I'm also curious, what do you think drives the antipathy towards female freedom that characterizes the Iranian state? Do you see that? Do you see the roots of that in something that's formally religious, or do you see that as something more associated with, I don't even know how to understand it exactly, with a particular kind of man's terror of female attractiveness? Or like, it’s very mysterious to me that there's a whole culture dedicated now predicated on the oppression of its own women. It's like you're so afraid of your women—what are you afraid they're going to leave you, or are you afraid they're not going to be attracted to you? You have to control every bloody thing they do? And how did you develop a theory like that? And you said some of that in your own family, as your father wasn't exactly an advocate for female freedom."

"Yeah, it's linked to religion. It is a religious dictatorship to me, and millions of other people. About my own family, my mom was able to choose what she wanted to wear before the revolution, and I remember she was wearing colorful dresses, colorful scarves. But immediately after the revolution, when you see her picture, you get shocked—I could only see my mom's nose. That's all. I mean, she was all black.

So you see, that was the religious government—it took everything away from us and they made men like the owner of the women and their family. So it's not, I mean, for years and years I've been hearing that people saying that this is part of the Middle Eastern people's culture, like wearing hijab or not going to the stadium or not dancing, not singing—this is part of your culture. It's not. It is the culture of a religious dictatorship. So for millions of Iranians who experienced Sharia laws, it's very clear that the Islamic Republic right after the revolution tried to control the whole society through women. And that is why they use our body like their own political platform to write their manifest on it.

See Afghanistan right now—what is the main picture of Afghanistan, which was over by Taliban? Covering women's face. What was the main image of women when they got Yazidi women when they got free from ISIS? You remember the picture of women burning the compulsory veiling? So you see, for us, it's not about a small piece of cloth. When we talk about compulsory hijab, compulsory hijab is like the main pillar of religious dictatorship. It's like, as I always say, it's like the Berlin Wall, you know? And that is why the Islamic Republic really is not willing to let it go. They'd rather kill teenagers, but they don't want to actually say that we're going to get rid of morality police, we're going to get rid of compulsory hijab, because they know that we, the women of Iran, are not just fighting to get rid of morality producers and compulsory hijab. We see this compulsory hijab like black—it's in the DNA of religious dictatorship; it's in the DNA of a gender apartheid regime.

So for us, clearly, we want to get rid of this. We want separation between religion and politics, and this is the 21st century. And I don't think this is too much to ask."

"Well, okay. So there's the Sharia law issue, there's the religious issue, then there's a psychological issue that I want to delve into momentarily to see if we can sort these things out a little bit. It’s still a mystery to me in some regard because it appears to me, and this is maybe just my Western liberal bias, that the optimal relationship between a man and woman is one of, well, first of all, it's voluntary, and second of all, there is an element of playfulness about it if it's running optimally, right? So there's love and playfulness and care and all that associated with it.

But the most radical, the most relevant part of all of that is the fact that it's a voluntary association, and that's part of what makes it what both tolerable for both parties and maybe enjoyable for both parties. And but it's also something that speaks to the heart of the proper social contract in relationship to long-term, well, to any long-term arrangement between men and women. So then I'm trying to think about what it has to be like to be a man who believes that women have to be controlled in this manner, and it has to be, and this is psychologically speaking, it has to be something like the belief that unless you police women entirely in all of their behaviors, especially anything that might be attractive on the sexual front, that they'll want nothing to do with you, and they're completely untrustworthy.

It has to be something like that because if you leave women to their own devices, well, then they're not going to have anything to do with you, and they're going to flaunt their wares, so to speak, to other men, and everything will fall apart. And I can't really imagine a more cowardly attitude towards women than that. The attitude is unless you tell them what to do all the time, they're going to have nothing to do with you and run off.

Yeah, it’s utterly pathetic, and I don't think that's exactly religious. It seems to me to be, in some real sense, it's even deeper than religious. It’s this appallingly second-rate psychology of some notion of the relationship between men and women—unless it's based on strict control and power, there's no possibility of an optimal relationship because women are untrustworthy and they're sexually provocative, and they'll just run off on you if you don't police every bloody thing they do. And that's so pathetic. And if that's the basis of your entire polity, which is the point you're making with regards to the hijab, you can't see that a political society like that could be anything but ultimately repressive."

"Of course. Look, but at the end of the day, in my country, Iran, in Afghanistan, in the Middle East, we see that if the religion leaves men alone and leaves women alone, we know how to handle our life. We know how to deal with any kind of discrimination if we see through culture or through men among our family controlling us.

But when the law is actually promoting violence and calling men to be the owner of women, then it's getting worse and difficult. You know, I remember that for years and years, the Iranian regime actually were like brainwashed a whole society, especially through the educational system, educating young boys that you are the owner of your sister. So when we grow up in such a society, for instance, we're being told that men, according to Shari'ah, can marry four wives; they can have as many women as they want. And, oh my God, women cannot... I mean, as a woman, if you show your hair, it's a crime. But men are allowed to actually do whatever they want to do, and in the name of honor, men can kill their daughter. I mean, these are facts that I'm telling you like a girl in Iran who removed her hijab, Saba Kordashari, received 24 years prison sentence just because of removing her hijab in Iran. But a father who actually beheaded his daughter received only an eight-year prison sentence. So here clearly we're talking about Sharia laws actually allowing men to control women, to own women.

So as a feminist, I believe that in my country, men are very progressive. I see how men now are walking in the street toward morality police, toward security forces with open arms, saying that we are ready to die, but we are not going to leave our sisters who are fighting for their dignity. So the society of men is more progressive than the law, the establishment, and that's very, very frustrating that you see that through the educational system, we're being told that, hey, you can kill your sister. But now the same men are shouting in the street like ‘mimiram,’ saying that we rather die, but not live with humiliation because men think that this is an insult to them.

When the whole world is actually saying to us, like, this is your culture—‘Iranian men cannot control themselves,’ they can get excited if they see women's unveiled, women's hair, women's body. This is an insult to man. And to be honest, I'm very proud of Iranian men and women now shoulder to shoulder saying that we want to get rid of this religious dictatorship because it's not just an insult to women; this is an insult to man as well. And that scares the Iranian regime."

"So you started to really work as a political activist when you weren't a very old teenager, eh? You started writing pamphlets and meeting politically. How old were you when you started doing that? Like you left your village, if I remember the story correctly, you left your small village and went off to school. How old were you when you started to become politically active?"

"I mean, when you say that you left your village, it just breaks my heart because I got kicked out from everywhere. I never had a choice. I got kicked out from everywhere just because of wanting to have dignity and freedom. First, I got kicked out from high school just because of, you know, spreading pamphlets. Then I got kicked out from my village because it was a scandal. As a woman, I was the first one who got divorced. I was the first one who got kicked out from the Iranian Parliament. I was the first one who got pregnant before officially being married. And that was a huge scandal, you know?

And um, in my village, I don't have any space to stay because it was not easy for my parents; I was really a scandal for all my family. And then I became a columnist. Oh my God! No, I became a parliamentary journalist, and I got kicked out from Iranian Parliament just because of exposing the corruption, you know? You receive a word if you do that in America; if you publish their payslips, the salary that the member of the parliament received, you will be appreciated; you receive awards. I got kicked out from Iranian Parliament. In the end, I got kicked out from my homeland, Iran, because, you know, I had two options: to stay in my country and impose self-censorship on myself and just stay quiet, or to leave it on and be loud. You know, Jordan, I remember that I was a naughty girl and troublemaker in my village. My mom used to say, that when your uncle, aunties, everyone were around, you were making noise; your father was just kicking you out from the room, but you were able to find a window and sneak into the same room.

So my government kicked me out from everywhere, but I was able to find my window to sneak to my homeland. And now my window is my social media. You know, they kicked me out from Iran, but they couldn't take Iran away from me. Through my social media, I'm there. I have more than 10 million followers—more than the ayatollahs all together. And I'm not an actress; I'm not a model. I'm just giving voice to voiceless people, and I'm being in touch with them every day. So clearly, yes, I didn't leave Iran; they kicked me out, but I am there every day.

As a teenager in a very small village, poor family, I had a black and white TV. I was the one watching mullahs telling me what to do, how to think, what kind of Lifestyle to follow. But now all those small laws, through their own TV, they're watching me, and they know me by my name."

"Now you were also the target of a kidnap plot, I understand, that was orchestrated by the Iranian government or at least that’s the theory. So do you want to talk about that a little bit?"

"Yes, because that actually shows you that when we, the people of Iran, are fighting against Allah, we are not just fighting for ourselves here in America, miles away from Iran. I was not safe; I was the target of the Islamic Republic. Yes, if it was not the FBI stopping the kidnapping plot, I would have been in Iran and executed like many other activists. Just, you know, maybe Americans, maybe your audiences, people here, when they listen to this story, they think it's like part of fiction. I mean, kidnapping American citizens or trying to assassinate American citizens on U.S. soil for you maybe it's like a Hollywood movie or a fiction book, but for us, it's the reality. It's fascinating—kidnapping, executing is in the DNA of the Islamic Republic, and millions of Iranian families experience this.

Just two years ago, the Iranian regime did the same. They actually kidnapped one of the journalists from France to Iraq; they kidnapped him from Iraq to Iran, and they executed him—father of two children. So that could have happened to me, and actually, I remember when the FBI came to my house, and they said that this time it was not about kidnapping. This time the guy with a loaded gun was arrested in front of your house. I was shocked. I was like, wow, here in America. I’m not—don't get me wrong. I’m not scared of my life at all, but it is scary that you see that the Iranian regime dared to challenge the U.S. authorities on their soil. That's a scary happening in front of the eyes of the free world, that the Iranian regime tried to kill people abroad."

"So why aren't you afraid?"

"To be honest, I don't want to say that I'm not afraid at all because, look, it's not just about me; it's about my stepchildren, it's about my husband, it's about my neighbors, my beautiful neighbors in Brooklyn. Of course, I'm scared for their lives as well. Like, imagine, imagine if the guy had opened fire in Brooklyn. How many of my neighbors would have been killed? It is scary, but I'm not as scared of my life because, to be honest, I have only one life. I love the way that I am. I am scared that regime. I don't have guns and bullets. You see that I'm a very tiny woman. I'm even cold here. I couldn't protect myself from a cold here.

But look, they're scared of me. They're scared of me, and that's why they send people here to kill me, so that gives me power, you know. And there is no difference between my life and the life of teenagers in Iran. I see that teenagers posting on their social media and saying that I'm not sure whether I'm going to come back home or not. Oh my God! When teenagers are getting killed, I go to their social media and I read their posts. Some of them post on their story unbelievably brave, saying that this might be the last day of my life, but the good day will come. Maybe I'm not alive. You laugh on behalf of me. I see that teenagers writing on their social media that this land, Iran, didn't give me anything, but I give my life, my head to free this land from Allah. These are not me saying that—teenagers writing these words and going to the streets and facing guns and bullets. Then you tell me what is different between me and them.

I see them, and I tell myself I have only one life. I don't want to live like miserable and being scared and living paranoia. No, my heroes are the women of Iran, men in Iran, facing guns and bullets and saying that we're not going to live under humiliation. So that's why I'm not scared of my life."

"We'll be back in one moment. First, we wanted to give you a sneak peek at Jordan's new documentary, Logos and Literacy. I was very much struck by how the translation of the biblical writings jump-started the development of literacy across the entire world. Illiteracy was the norm. The pastor's home was the first school, and every morning it would begin with singing.

The Christian faith is a singing religion. Probably 80 percent of the scripture memorization today exists only because of what is sung. This is amazing. Here we have a Gutenberg Bible, printed on the price of Johann Gutenberg. Science and religion are opposing forces in the world, but historically, that has not been the case. Now the book is available to everyone from Shakespeare to modern education and medicine and science to civilization itself. It is the most influential book in all of history, and hopefully, people can walk away with at least a sense of that."

"So when you talk about the Iranian political state post-revolution, post-1979, you describe society that sounds like the radical leftist caricature of Western society, right? It's intensely patriarchal, it's extremely misogynistic, it's anti-woman, it's repressive, it's hierarchical—all the power is aggregated into the hands of a very small minority of people. And that's the reality on the ground in Iran, and that's not the reality in the U.S. and in the western world, but the West is often accused of that.

What sort of response have you got from the progressive side of the political spectrum in the U.S. in relationship to the sorts of claims that you're making about the Iranian state? To be honest, it was a long road. We passed the time that we've been ignored for years and years. For years and years, the progressive and left were quite lost when I was saying that compulsory hijab is not part of our culture. When I was saying that as a woman who grew up under Sharia laws, I have the right to be scared of Islamic ideology. For years and years, I have been ignored by many people in the West, saying that you're causing Islamophobia when you talk about compulsory hijab.

But to be honest, now because of the bravery of Iranian people within the society making awareness, finally I see that the media, left, liberal, progressive celebrities, feminists finally are hearing us; finally, we are being heard. I mean, recently when I saw that CNN covered the story of Iran's new Revolution, exposing that how women are getting raped in prison, I was sitting in my house watching the news. I was crying, but at the same time, I was really proud that finally my people in Iran made the whole world to hear them, to understand that this is a feminist revolution being supported by men in Iran and the western liberal, in the western feminist are paying attention to this finally.

So I really appreciate that now, especially when I see that because of the pressure from celebrities, from media, from activists, from feminists, finally the leaders of democratic countries are changing their tone as well. But, of course, we need more; of course, we need actions. Now all we see that Biden Administration are changing their tone; they actually took the leadership to kick out the Islamic Republic from United Nation's top women body, and I was like sitting in my house and I was like, wow, this is happening. This is happening because just two years ago when four democratic countries voted for the Islamic Republic to have a seat on women's top body at the United Nations, we, the women of Iran, were alone, for alone. We were shocked. We were like, how come you're voting for a country that do not even allow women to be their true self? Just being our true self is a crime, and you're voting for our oppressors to monitor women's rights globally?

It's like voting for Taliban to monitor human rights globally. But now, it's just unbelievable that the U.S. government took leadership to kick out the Islamic Republic from the United Nation's top. But this is just the beginning. This is just the beginning, so we need more."

"Well, so there's a couple of mysteries there. I mean, one you just pointed to—we can expand on that a little bit. I mean, I don't know if there's anything more preposterous that's happened internationally, although that's a hard contest, than the U.N.'s decision to appoint Iran or to allow Iran to have a permanent seat, hypothetically a permanent seat, on the international body that was fundamentally responsible for the monitoring and regulation, let's say, of women's rights.

So we have a mystery there—it's like, that's so utterly preposterous that it's almost impossible to believe that the West ever agreed to it to begin with—and then we have another mystery underneath that, which is that it's been an uphill battle for you and for the people who are fighting for freedom in Iran to convince the more progressive end of the spectrum, including western feminists, that the regime that you're fighting against has all the hallmarks of the terrible patriarchy that hypothetically they oppose.

And so what in the world is the reason that, well, first of all, that there's been this pro-Iranian mullah sentiment in the West, which is almost completely incomprehensible? And then allied with this, a completely what would you call it—willful blindness on the part of western feminists for like 30 years with regards to the crimes against women that had been occurring in Iran. Like, how do you account for that?"

"It was heartbreaking for me—not for me, for women in Afghanistan right now. Right now, girls are being kicked out from a school just because of being girls; women are being kicked out from university. But still we don’t see in the West like women take to the streets. Like, you know, there was a campaign called ‘Bring Our Girls Back.’ When I remember when Michelle Obama actually launched that campaign, I was like, this is the U.S. that I have been dreaming to live. When the women's march happened here in America, I was like, yes! I was part of the women's march; I took to the streets and I was calling my fellow activists in Iran with joy, saying that I cannot believe I'm shouting my body, my choice, without getting arrested, without getting harassed, without being bullied in the street, without being killed, without being killed. I was like, oh my God, this is the America that I had dreamed to live. But suddenly I was shocked that when I’m saying my body, my choice, the same feminists go to my country and they wear hijab in front of the Islamic Republic.

Not even going to my country, here in the West—my God, here in the West, some of the female politicians, the U.S. envoy for Afghanistan, wore hijab in front of Taliban in the West. Why? I don’t get that; I don’t get that. So that's why maybe I'm really appreciative now when I see finally the young girls and teenagers risk their lives; they paid huge price to make the whole world, especially the global feminist movement, to understand that this is the time that you have to recognize this revolution which is taking place in Iran, and now they are paying attention finally.

I heard that President Obama actually said that he regrets it; Hillary Clinton said that she regrets not supporting the green movement in 2009. So we, the people of Iran, actually now calling on the free world that this is the time we have to see international women's march for women of Iran and women of Afghanistan because otherwise, history will judge every single democratic country who could actually support girls and women in Iran and Afghanistan, but they kept silent.

So I see the progress. I see that we are being heard, but we need more actions. First, the democratic countries must actually recognize this Revolution and recall their ambassadors. This is not me saying that—one million Iranians signed a petition and asking the leaders of G7 democratic countries to kick out Iranian diplomats. You know, there is Iran's interest section in Washington D.C., Jordan. I challenge every feminist to come with me to go to Iran's interest section to see that how here in the U.S., we get kicked out if we don't cover our hair in the 21st century. They don't even allow us to go to Iran's interest section.

Why? Because we have to cover ourselves according to Sharia laws. Why? My people, my women in Iran, they're risking their lives; they're practicing their civil disobedience; they remove their hijab. Why should we keep silent? We can do that here; we can practice our civil disobedience in Iran's interest section to show the rest of the world how barbaric this regime is."

"So let me argue this a bit from the side—the hypothetically more progressive side. Because there's some thorny issues here. I mean, one of the things that people who tilt towards the left in the West are concerned with is that any negative press, let's say, in relationship to the more tyrannical elements of Islamic fundamentalism has the negative consequence of shedding a dim light on the religious practices as a whole. And so people are rightly concerned, I suppose, about distinguishing between valid criticisms of the excesses of the fundamentalists and generating a kind of more global, let's call it, Islamophobia that would inflame religious tensions between the Christian world and the Jewish world and the Islamic world.

And so there's this very thin line in some sense that has to be walked such that we can distinguish between the fundamentalist totalitarians and leave some respect for the alternative, from the Western perspective, for the alternative Islamic culture in place. And I mean, I've talked to a lot of Islamic moderates—people who are working to put forward a more vision of Islam that's more commensurate, say, with a liberal democracy—and they're also concerned about a kind of blanket Islamophobia.

And I think some of the resistance on the part of the left to criticizing regimes like Iran is this fear that a more generalized, quote, Islamophobia might develop. And so to what degree—and it's an open question in relationship to Iran too. Like, you associate the totalitarian prescriptions with Sharia law, and there's a religious element to that. I mean, people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali—she’s come out very strongly as an anti-Islamic crusader in some real sense and also a great promoter of women's freedom. Someone, she's someone I admire remarkably. But it does leave us with this thorny question, right?

Is that on the one hand, we have these fundamentalist proclivities that seem to manifest themselves in Islam and also in other religions, and then we have the problem of having to maintain peaceful relationships with the Islamic culture as a whole, and it's not easy in the West to figure out how to do both of those at the same time. Why? I mean, how do you not throw the—I don't get it. Why? Okay. Why? Look, I'm coming from a Muslim family; I'm not against my mother, I'm not against my father. I want separation between religion and politics. Is that difficult to understand?"

"I get attacked by some people in the West saying that when I criticize Sharia laws, when I criticize Islamic ideology, they're saying that, ‘Oh, you're anti-Muslim.’ You're um... I mean, right, actually, I wrote an article to criticize Ilhan Omar's legislation. Her legislation is to gather information on those who are causing Islamophobia. I wrote an article for Washington Post; I challenged her that if we criticize Islamic Republic, we criticize Sharia laws, we criticize Taliban, does it, in your mind, in your point of view, cause Islamophobia in the West? Because in my country, if we criticize Islam, we get hanged. As mortad mohareb means you are waging war against God. Right now that I'm talking to you, more than 50 people are in prison, waiting to be hanged because of waging war against God or spreading corruption on the Earth.

So these are all, according to Sharia laws, legal. People can—people get killed, hanged, executed in the name of Sharia laws in Iran. So if I criticize that in the West, then I'm causing Islamophobia or I'm anti-Muslim? So for me, look, I'm not scared of being labeled as Islamophobic at all. The revolution is taking place in Iran; it's against the Islamic Republic and gender apartheid regime, which actually the Islamic Republic is against minority. It's against LGBT community; it's against environment; it's against Baha'i; it's against Jewish—all minority; it's against women; it's against our dignity. So these are the values that we share with the Western left and liberals.

These are the values that you need. All these values are universal. So what is wrong here in the West? In my opinion, it’s like Democrats and Republicans cannot see human rights abuse in Iran like a bipartisan issue. For me, I get attacked if I come to your show by left and liberal, if I go and ask the left and liberal to support our cause; I get attacked by right wings. So this is wrong, to be honest. When it comes to Iran and Afghanistan, we should only care about universal values."

"I’m going to be very honest with you. I really don't care whether Trump is in power, Biden is in power, or Obama is in power. What I care is that the Islamic State should not be in power in Iran and Afghanistan because at the end of the day, here in America, we have First Amendment, we have freedom of expression, we have free media—we can criticize whoever we want. But in my country, when you criticize harmony, you pay huge price, which is your life. So that's why is that too much to ask that when it comes to Iran, when it comes to Islamic Republic, we have to get united? We have to get all together and give voice to Iranian people who want to get rid of the Islamic Republic. Because the Islamic Republic is not only a threat for Iranians; believe me, the Islamic Republic, if they want to kill Americans, they never ask you whether you are Republican or you're Democrat, whether you support LGBT community or you don't support gay people. They kill you anyway, because you are American.

So that is why I call on Americans every day, every single corner that I go, that when it comes to the Iranian fight against the Islamic Republic, you have to see this as a bipartisan issue. Otherwise believe me, the Islamic Republic will get united by Putin, with Maduro, China—all the dictators—and they will end democracy."

"How good are your connections in Iran right now? How much of a sense do you have of what’s happening on the ground? What is the situation in Iran right now? How widespread are the protests? Who’s participating? What do you see as the most likely outcome right now?"

"The revolution in Iran which is taking place is like a marathon, you know? I'm not saying that we can overthrow the regime overnight. We have a really tough road ahead, as you see that 18,000 people are in prison and more than 50 of them are on death row. Two of them got executed recently, and the family members of the political prisoners that I'm being in touch with, they're really worried about their beloved one. I mean, Jordan just think about it—you go to prison just because of chanting for freedom, and then every morning you have to be concerned that you're the next one that you're going to be hanged for wanting freedom, democracy, and dignity.

That's very scary! And when I talk to the members of those political prisoners, they're really frustrated. But what amazed me immediately when people get executed or get killed in Iran? Oh my God! Their family members turning the funeral into massive protests against the whole regime—that's very unique, and it's very shocking that the more that Iranian regime killed people, the more people get determined to take back to the streets. So that is actually a significant sign that the Iranian people are fed up with the Islamic Republic, and they have a clear message that we’re going to end this regime.

I mean, it's not easy actually to say that when teenagers, when children are getting killed, their family members are being forced to go on TV and do false confessions, like the family members sitting in front of the camera and denouncing their beloved one. So this is what's going on right now in Iran. But a lot of people are hopeful; they're very hopeful. I mean, the Iranian regime took everything away from people—not hope. They believe that with the help of the Western countries, less people will get killed and we will win this battle. We will end this barbaric regime."

"Let's talk a little bit about what might constitute a path forward, because you could imagine that the regime is overthrown, that it falls apart in tatters, let's say. But one of the themes that's developed in the biblical story of Exodus is the notion, the narrative notion that when you escape from a tyranny and you've been slaves, you don't go to the promised land; you go to the desert, right?

And that's a period of interminable wandering and confusion. And we've seen this time and time again where an oppressive centralized regime will collapse, and the consequence of that isn't the recreation of a functional polity but the descent into something like unbridled chaos. I mean, Iran could fragment; there's all sorts of tensions that are pulling it apart. And one of the things that I'm curious about are your views about what might happen that would actually be productive in the Iranian context if this centralized oppressive regime collapsed. Like, why wouldn't Iran just become a failed state then? What do you—why are you optimistic about the fact that a new form of governance might emerge that's actually very good?"

"That's a very good question because I often get this question from journalists, even ordinary people in the West, saying that how you're that sure that Iran is not going to be Libya, Iran is not going to be Syria. You know, but let’s just compare Iran with our own history, like back to 40 years ago. Why shouldn't we compare Iran to our own history—that women and men were together, they had social freedom?

And it’s sad that the Iranian regime is trying to sell this narrative to the Western media, saying that if you support this revolution, chaos is going to happen. This situation is chaos! Where women are getting raped, where minorities are getting killed, where the family members are going to prison just because asking, why did you kill my son? Why did you kill my daughter? This is Syria. So the only reason that Iran can be like Syria is if the Islamic Republic is this barbaric, model regime.

So for me and millions of Iranians, it's clear that we know what we want. If we get rid of the Islamic Republic, we want to have fair and free elections. Then we can choose the kind of government that we want them to run the country, and believe me, when you open the doors of the prison, all those political prisoners right now suffering under the Islamic Republic, they can run the country better than these backward mullahs. Many educated people outside Iran—many intellectual elites who were forced to leave Iran now are ready to run the country.

And believe me, they can run the country better than clerics, better than mullahs. So this is to me clear that the Iranian regime is trying to sell this narrative, but believe me, as far as the Islamic Republic is in power, the whole world cannot be a safe place. Right now that I'm talking to you, the Islamic Republic is sending drones to Putin to kill innocent Ukrainians. Right now that I'm talking to you, U.S. citizens, British citizens, UK citizens, German citizens, Swedish citizens—they’re all in Iranian prisons being used like bargaining chips to get a nuclear deal.

And then here I keep hearing from some of the analysts, some of the apologists, some of the media and policymakers are saying that we have to stick with, you know, our policy to negotiate with the same regime because an Iran with a bomb is a very dangerous regime for everyone. But believe me, an Iran without the Islamic Republic can make the whole world a much safer place. And we can achieve our goal when the Islamic Republic is gone because the Iranian regime is a cheater broker; they are cheating. You cannot trust them; you cannot negotiate with them when they lie. But they keep lying about their nuclear activities, everything.

So for millions of Iranians, it's clear that if the Western countries understand that, they can achieve their goal if the Islamic Republic is gone, then Iran is going to be a secular democratic country. A young generation, smart and intellectual leaders inside and outside Iran, they can run this country better than Khatami, Ahmadinejad."

"You have enough faith in the educated and competent section of the Iranian population, dispersed though it may be, to put forward a form of governance that's going to be far superior to what's happening now, and you think that's a realistic possibility?"

"It is, it is. Look, let me tell you something. For years and years, the Iranian regime was trying to say that if you don't cover yourself, if you want to be safe in public, you will get raped by men. Oh my God! This is their mindset. They even made a fake news about myself as well, saying that on Iranian national television, that Masial energy got raped by three men in London; guess why? Because she undressed herself! So this is the mentality of this regime.

They believe that even about the #MeToo movements in the West. I remember that the Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei said that on Western feminists—the Western women who are now complaining about getting raped and sexually harassed, it's because they don't know Islam; it's their fault because they don't wear hijab; they don't cover themselves, so they deserve to get raped. This is the mindset of this regime!

So of course, the younger generation are more progressive than these backward mullahs, and they can run this country better than those who believe that if you get raped, it's your fault."

"So let's go to the particulars of your individual experience and the individual experience of Iranian women. You talked a bit in this broadcast so far about the morality police. And so what did that mean in your day-to-day life? Who are the morality police? How widespread and prevalent are they? What sort of people are they, and what do they do?"

"I cannot believe it again in the 21st century we talk about the morality police. What kind of moral is that you walk in the streets and you look around and you see teenagers, ‘Oh, cover yourself! Cover yourself! If you don't cover yourself, then I'm gonna punch you on your face!’ Yes, morality police are a bunch of officers, men and women. They’re receiving money from the regime, walking in public and monitoring that whether people behave properly, whether people follow Sharia laws appropriately.

I mean, who got killed? The 22-year-old woman—she was not even unveiled! A little bit of her hair was visible, and that's why she got arrested, you know? I really want you to go and check the hashtag called ‘my camera is my weapon.’ For years and years, I have been receiving videos from women inside Iran filming morality police. If you really want to know what morality police mean in the 21st century, go and watch their videos of bravely filming the officers and a bunch of backward agents of the Islamic Republic harassing women for the way that they've been dressing in public.

And it's beyond sad! It's beyond sad that for years and years, women are being harassed, getting beaten up, getting arrested or receiving lashes for not wearing appropriate hijab. For years and now the whole world, now finally they’re paying attention to us. But believe me, it didn't need for teenagers to get killed for the whole world to understand that when we fight against compulsory hijab, we fight against one of the most dangerous regimes who dared to kill innocent people for just, you know, being their true self."

"And what sort of people do you think are attracted to the job of morality police? Like how would you characterize them?"

"To be honest, sometimes it's all about money, but sometimes they’re being brainwashed. They’re being brainwashed that you're doing for the good of the people. I mean, my own father—I mean, I love my father; I love him. It's not even easy to talk about it, but my own father was trying to take me to Heaven by force all my life, all my life. I can—he was kind of morality police. And millions of Iranian women had this experience, having morality police inside their own house, like fathers, brother, telling us that cover yourself; it’s for your own good; I'm protecting you.

So you see, my father didn't have any chance to be educated properly, so he was the one being brainwashed by all the mullahs, clerics through the educational system, through TV—all the propaganda tools, media that you know, you are the owner of your daughter! If you don't force her to cover herself, then you will be responsible as well. I mean, my father—and I was told through all the clerics, through TV, that women will get hanged if they're unveiled."

"So what is your parents' attitude towards what you're doing now and the profile that you've established? I mean, you're not only experiencing the division in Iranian society at the political and sociological level; it's being acted out in your own household, which is typically the case for deep political issues. And so how do your parents and your family respond to what you're doing at the present time?"

"To be honest, not only my family—millions of other Muslim people, millions of other, you know, older generations who have been supporting this regime—they've changed. But just watching how brutal this regime is, I mean I can talk about myself again that the Iranian regime integrated my 70-year-old mother for what I have been doing to stop her from sharing her love with me. It was really sad watching my sister on Iranian national television disowning me publicly.

And it's beyond sad that the Iranian regime asked my own family to take me to Turkey; they were trying to kidnap me from Turkey. So for me, it's heartwarming that my mom didn't go to TV to denounce me publicly. It's heartwarming that my mom didn't want me to be kidnapped, so that's why she didn’t actually cooperate with the regime. My brother—my brother, Ali! Oh my God! They put him in prison for two years just because he didn't want to actually see his sister being tricked from America to Turkey and being kidnapped from Turkey.

So that was the plan of the Islamic Republic. So you see, I have been working really hard. Now I have my family on my side, which maybe they're not saying that in public, but by not taking me to Turkey, by not going on TV and denouncing me publicly, I love them. You know, I love them. And many other people in the street that I see that they wear hijab but they're supporting their daughters—many other fathers that I see that they believe in Islam, but they don't believe in political Islam, and they don't want to support this regime.

So that scares the Iranian government, that finally, finally people like my mother, people who actually were part of the Revolution to overthrow the Shah's regime, are taking to the streets and saying that we made a mistake. We overthrew the Shah's regime; we made a mistake. You know, many people chanting in the street saying that it's a big lie that the Islamic Republic says that our enemy is America—our enemy is right here, is the Islamic Republic! So this is the victory. So that's why I'm very, very optimistic because I believe that even those who supported the Islamic Republic now, they know very well that the Islamic Republic is against the dignity of everyone."

"And this is the same regime that actually asking people to say death to America. I mean, they brainwashed my family to say death to America, but they send their own relatives to America, Jordan. Right now that I'm talking to you, the children of the hostage-takers, those who took American diplomats hostage, they send their children here; they live in America; they live in New York, in L.A., having their luxury lives. So my parents and the older generation, they're watching this hypocrisy, and finally, they're supporting the younger generation and they're saying that yes, they lied to us.

They lied to us; their children, their relatives are enjoying freedom. They go to parties, they dance, they sing; they’re happy in the West, but here the voice of Iranian people crying for the same freedom, crying to have the same dignity. It's just unbelievable."

"You talked as well about the corruption of the mullahs. And so, you know, there's a Biblical injunction—it's one of the Ten Commandments—to not take God's name in vain. And people think that means don't swear, and that isn't what it means. What it means is don't use the name of God to justify your own instrumental agenda. Don't claim to be doing holy work and good work when actually what you're doing is promoting your own narrow self-interest.

And so we have a regime in Iran that's unbelievably corrupt—the mullah regime on the financial level—and they're justifying their imaginations with reference to a transcendent authority. But can you talk a little bit about corruption in the mullah establishment and how that plays itself out in Iranian society? How do you see that on the ground?"

"This regime is corrupt, and for years and years, they were saying that, you know, we overthrew the Shah's regime because we want to help the poor people. But believe me, now the relatives of the mullahs—their own older, you know, big companies in Iran—they're actually the ones receiving all the money that the American government, actually when they lift up the sanctions, they send billions of dollars to the Iranian government. The money goes directly to the Revolutionary Guard, to the relatives of the Ayatollahs.

For many years, the Iranian regime put the blame on the U.S. sanction. But can you believe that while we, the people of Iran, were suffering from sanctions, the Islamic Republic actually increased the budget of two well-known institutions, which belongs to the son of Ayatollah Khomeini and the son of Ayatollah Rahmani? So the money directly goes to 51 religious institutions, including the morality police, while they put the blame on U.S. sanctions, right?

So they're running a shell game to enrich themselves financially—rich enrich themselves and their relatives in a dynastic and autocratic manner, while simultaneously claiming to be acting in the name of God and persecuting people who object as if they're satanic objectors. That's basically the game."

"And so that’s using the Lord’s name in vain, let’s say."

"But not only in Iran, not only inside Iran. Look, just a few months ago Salman Rushdie was the target of an assassination plot, right?"

"Right."

"Why? Why? Because of the fatwa from the Ayatollahs from my own country? I was shocked! I was shocked when I heard some of the media in the west were saying that the motive behind this assassination plot of Salman Rushdie is not clear. Why is it? Yeah, right, it is clear! Because when you go to the page of this person who was trying to kill Salman Rushdie, it's full of the pictures of Ayatollahs, and the front page of the newspaper in Iran right after the assassination plot was the picture of Salman Rushdie, and they were celebrating. They were celebrating the assassination plot, and they were actually saying that the next should be Masi Alen Jad. So you see this, I don’t get this contradiction that at the same time you are saying that you care about democracy and the safety of Americans and Western people, but at the same time you allow those who promote the fatwa against Salman Rushdie to enjoy freedom of expression through social media, while 80 million people are banned from using the same social media—Twitter, Instagram, Facebook—they're all filtered in Iran. But those who order filtering, they are enjoying freedom on social media.

Iranian people are calling every day to tech companies, Twitter, kick out the Ayatollahs until the day we have the same freedom to use Twitter. Is that too much to ask?"

"Yeah, well, it appears to be."

"I mean, when I saw what happened with Solomon Rushdie, it must have been 25 years ago and the fatwa laid on him, I thought the Western response was unbelievably weak, needed, and cowardly. I thought, we have a real test case here. The idea of freedom of expression is being directly challenged by this terrible regime in Iran, with a price being laid on the head of an outstanding writer who's made his reputation in the west. And all the West did was cow-tow and become extremely apologetic, and I thought, oh, oh, we’re in real trouble because we’re too stupid to notice that an attack on Salman Rushdie is a direct attack by the Iranian fundamentalists on the fundamental notion of freedom in the west. And that's been unfolding over 25 years.

And as you said, it culminated in this most recent nearly fatal attack on Rushdie. And not only that— the professor at Oberlin College, right, he is the one who actually promoted the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, and I don’t get that. How is he welcomed by the U.S. government to be a professor and teach peace and democracy at Oberlin College? Another professor, Ani, who was the Minister of Culture in Iran, who left Iran and now he lives in England, he actually wrote a book and promoted the fatwa against Salman Rushdie.

So you see this—I don't get this contradiction that at the same time you are saying that you care about democracy and safety of Americans and Western people, but at the same time, you allow those who promote the fatwa against Salman Rushdie to enjoy their freedom and educate the younger generation at universities in the Western countries. They're going to ruin the mindset of the younger generation in America! That's why there is a huge campaign against Mahalati and asking the Oberlin College to kick him out because he was actually the one hiding and covering up the mass executions because he was actually the ambassador of United Nations during the time when Ibrahim Raisi ordered the executions of more than 5,000 political prisoners.

He was the one actually here in America covering up the mass executions. And now it’s still nobody hears the cry of the Iranian people, saying that he was the one promoting the fatwa against Salman Rushdie as well."

"So what would you like more in more detail? What would you like Western leaders to do in relationship to the ongoing events in Iran? What do you think would be most helpful as far as you're concerned? So if I could sit down and talk to my prime minister, Justin Trudeau—which has about as much chance of happening as a snowball lasting on the Sun, by the way—what do you think it is that he should be doing that would actually be helpful to the women and men in Iran who are trying to fight against this fundamentalist tyranny?"

"Simple demand! I call on Justin Trudeau to put the Revolutionary Guards on the terrorist list! Look, three years ago, I was in Canadian Parliament. I was actually begging the policymakers to put the Revolutionary Guards in the terrorist list, to sanction the Revolutionary Guards and to sanction all the oppressors. Three years ago, what happened? I was ignored. I was actually under attack by some of the Islamic Republic apologists in Canada, and they're calling themselves activists, human rights activists, but they were echoing the voice of the Iranian regime and attacking me, bullying me. Why? Because I asked Justin Trudeau to sanction the Revolutionary Guards.

What happened by ignoring our demand? The same Revolutionary Guards shut down the Ukrainian airplane and killed 176 innocent Iranian and Canadian people!"

"So our prime minister is hypothetically a progressive sort of person and is hypothetically on the side of women, and so how do you account for the fact that despite your attendance at the Canadian Parliament and your request for support, that you never got it? How do you explain that?"

"It breaks my heart; it breaks my heart. But as you actually got to know me during this interview, I'm not that kind of person to give up my fight. I'm not that kind of person to give up having hope to convince the leaders of democratic countries that this is your turn now! You have to recognize Iran's revolution and call your allies! Get united! Kick out the Islamic Republic diplomats, recall the Islamic Republic diplomats from Iran, and publicly announce that the nuclear deal is dead! It’s dead! Because you cannot condemn the killers, the murderers, but at the same time trying to negotiate with them!"

"Sending billions of dollars to the same murderers—is that too much to ask?"

"Yeah, well, I'm sure the Islamic Republic would prefer we stayed on that track, wouldn't they?"

"So can we go a little bit more into the nuclear deal? Is that a reasonable place to go?"

"I think there's nothing else to add. The nuclear deal is already dead. But what we want? We want the U.S. government and its allies clearly and publicly to announce that the nuclear deal is dead, because this is the only thing that can help the Islamic Republic survive. You know, the Islamic Republic always put the blame on us, saying that this revolution, the new revolution, is being supported by Western government. But believe me, for its own survival, the Islamic Republic is begging for support from the Western countries. We don't actually ask for much help from the leaders of democratic countries. What we want is just that we want them to stick with their own values; that's all.

And not save the Islamic Republic while the Iranian people manage to shake this regime! Don't go and shake hands with the same regime—that's all we want! Because we believe that this Islamic Republic is a threat for the region and for the democratic countries as well. And if the Western countries are looking for their stability in the region, they cannot go and negotiate with one of the most unstable regimes. They have to recognize the civil society. They have to recognize this modern, progressive revolution, and they have to stick with the people of Iran. We are better allies than the Islamic Republic for the Western countries!"

"Right, right, right."

"So do you believe that the revolutionary spirit that's now manifesting itself in Iran is that growing, or are the mullahs successfully repressing it? Because it looks like a pretty... it doesn’t look to me like it’s spreading exponentially, you know? I can't tell and that's part of the reason why I wanted to talk to you today. I mean, the mullahs have a lot of control, and they have a lot of power and authority on their side. And so what’s the situation on the ground in Iran at the moment? How widespread are the protests? What percentage of the population is taking part?"

"I strongly believe that this time the protesters are going to win the battle, because look, first of all, the level of the brutality is very high. I mean, people are facing executions. But still, still every single person that gets killed, people get back to the streets and turn his or her funeral into a massive protest against the same regime. But don't forget that they have money, and they can actually, you know, buy some of the people to shut down the protest and to oppress the protesters.

But at the same time, the more that the Iranian regime kills, the more that Iranian people get determined to overthrow this barbaric regime! For me and millions of other people, this time is different. This time is different because this time, maybe it's like, you know, it's not 2009 demonstrations. In 2009, it was mostly about elections. It's not like 2019 demonstrations because it was mostly about economic. This time is mixed. People who believe that this regime is against every minority, it's against men, women, LGBT community, environment—it's against Baha'i, Jewish people, Kurds, Turks, Baloch—they're all united.

But for years and years, the Iranian regime was stuck—like successfully could execute Kurds, then people were like, okay, we are not Kurds, we are not going to get involved. They were successfully executing Jewish people, Baha'i, minority Arabs, Turks. But now immediately when they killed Mahsa Amini, people were like, we're all Mahsa! We were all united! People didn't say that we are not women, so we're not going to get involved with that! So this time is different because we see a sense of unity among Iranians, inside and outside.

This time is unique because we see a sense of unity among Iranians and non-Iranians outside Iran. You see that, you know, finally, people are protesting—not only Iranian women! And this is the first time in our history that we see Iranian well-known athletes quitting their jobs and supporting the Iranian uprising. This is the first time that we see Iranian well-known actresses saying that we don’t want to be part of the propaganda tool—they’re removing their hijab, and they’re saying we want to be part of this uprising. So that makes it different!"

"So you're making the case that this series of protests, this revolutionary movement, in some sense is more fundamental and also more united. It's not about economics only; it's not about the political situation and corruption; it's about the fundamentally totalitarian nature of the state and the fact that it's oppressing people so broadly that everyone can be united in their opposition to that oppression?"

"Exactly! So you see it as striking at the heart of the totalitarian state?"

"Exactly! And as I told you, this is the first time in history that people are united in a beautiful way! And it actually empowered many people in autocracy. Like Chinese people, when they took to the streets, they were actually showing their support to Iranian people using the same slogan: woman, life, freedom! People in Afghanistan, they got empowered by the slogan of Iranian people. So clearly, this uprising is encouraging everyone to be part of it.

You know, it's beautiful! It’s very progressive. It’s very beautiful that you see mothers and fathers! Immediately when they lose their beloved one, they take to the street and saying that this revolution needs blood and our beloved one. I mean, I get goosebumps! It’s not easy for parents to say that! It’s not easy—I’m a mother! I cannot even imagine losing my son! When I see that brave mothers for justice in Iran, immediately when they lose their son, they get a picture of their beloved one and leading the Revolution, saying that this revolution needs blood! And my blood don’t sacrifice his life to free Iran!

This is a revolution! The revolution happened inside the heart of the Iranian people, you know? It’s very, very powerful that you see people know that this is not free, but they are ready to pay the price! These are like, you know, I’m walking in history! You know, in the history, you see about heroes, but now we actually see the real heroes in the streets of Iran saying that freedom is not free, but we are ready to pay the price to get rid of the Islamic Republic!"

"Oh Mazi, that’s a very good place to end, I would say. We have talked for 90 minutes on YouTube. Thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today. I hope you continue to be able to do what you're doing, and I’d like to thank you for talking to me.

I'd like to thank everybody who is watching and listening on YouTube and the associated platforms too. And if any of you have been particularly taken by this story today, you know, you could always put pen to paper and write your Congressman or your Senator or— and let them know that you’re not all that happy about the situation in Iran, and that if the politicians got their act together and were stalwart in their opposition to this fundamentalist totalitarian misogynistic brutal regime, that maybe it could be pushed over! And that would be a nice object lesson to totalitarian tyrants everywhere in the world. And so you’d think the West could get their act together in relationship to that goal."

"And so I'm going to talk to Mazi some more on the Daily Wire Plus platform, probably more biographically, which is what I tend to do on that in that 30-minute segment. I'd like to thank the Daily Wire Plus people for setting up the production for this today and facilitating the conversation. And once again, I’d like to thank you very much for talking to me today, and wish you the best of luck in your—well, let's say continued existence and your continued safe existence, but then also in your attempts to, well, allow your voice to ring out despite the, what would you say, the cost that you have and are likely to continue to bear."

"Thank you so much! I hope we're gonna win this battle! One day I'm gonna invite you to my tiny village in Iran and you will be able to see beautiful Iran and beautiful people of my country. It’s a date!"

"Yeah, that would not be something to look forward to coming true."

"Thank you so much for having me!"

"That's for sure!"

"You bet! You bet! Very good talking with you."

"Hello everyone! I would encourage you to continue listening to my conversation with my guest on dailywireplus.com."