Texas Children's Hospital Exposed for Illegal Gender Affirming Care | Dr. Eithan Haim | EP 459

You have the biggest Children's Hospital in the world that is manipulating, mutilating, and sterilizing young children, so I thought I had to do something. I knew that there were risks; I knew that there were things to fear, but there’s something greater to fear rather than the consequences within this world.

[Music]

Hello everybody! I had the pleasure and the discomfort as well of talking with Dr. Itan Heim today. He is a general and trauma surgeon operating in Greenville, Texas. More relevant to this story, he's come out as a whistleblower recently against the largest children's hospital in the world in Texas, and so we discuss all that.

Join us.

Dr. Heim, start by situating yourself for everybody. Say who you are, where you are in your career, where you’re working, where you’re located geographically. Just contextualize this for everyone.

Yeah, um, and thank you for having me on. My name is Aon Heim. I'm a general and trauma surgeon in a small town outside of Dallas. I grew up in Florida. I have a brother and a sister, two parents; I'm very close with all of them. I went to college in Florida and then medical school there as well. I went to do my surgical training at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, Texas.

You know, this was a big deal for me because it's one of the most prestigious surgery programs in the country. A lot of legendary surgeons have come from that program. So I started that program in 2018 and was there for five years until 2023. I was able to see the world of medicine and surgery before COVID and then afterwards. I had a unique perspective because I was at the bottom of the rung during this time, and it had completely changed my life, changed the way that I perceive medicine and the world around me.

The program is Baylor College of Medicine, but we'll rotate a few different hospitals, one of those being Texas Children's Hospital, which is the largest children's hospital in the world, one of the best hospitals too.

What exactly did you see happening, and why do you refer to it in those terms?

Yeah, because, so when you're a surgical resident, you're at the very bottom of the totem pole of these big teams that take care of a bunch of patients. All the grunt work is done by the residents: talking to these patients, doing the consents, seeing them every single day. These are these big county hospitals, big children's hospitals.

When I started in 2018, this was like the apex of American Medicine, where people would be taken to the operating room, cut from the sternum to the belly, have their entire aorta replaced if they had disease, and these people would go home. I was able to see this, and it was amazing; this is what I always dreamed of doing because my dad's a doctor. He would tell me stories, and during that time, there was vigorous debate about issues in medicine and surgery. We would have these meetings every week where we would discuss these topics and we would discuss them freely.

We would have these different points of view that were fleshed out in really rigorous ways. But in 2020, all that changed, and this was again the time where I was at the bottom of the totem pole, right? It was like my second year in training. It was in March of 2020 that everything had changed where the medical profession and really our society's institutions had been transformed.

I think in two ways, where they had, instead of pursuing medicine based on morality and evidence and science, it was based on ideology. What I mean by that is this belief that truth is subjective, that it's not reflective of the objective world. Right? So that something is true if you say it's true, not because you can observe it or record it or measure it. All you have to do is just say it's true.

And this is a problem when you see it in like a college classroom, but it's a totally different thing when it's guiding the interventions that you're recommending for patients. That’s what happened during COVID with the masks, the lockdowns, the social distancing; none of this was ever based on any type of scientific thought. It was simply because someone said it, and one when, you know, believed in it.

But the second component that changed was censorship. The ideology had taken hold, but no one was able to question it; no one was able to debate it because of the censorship. It happened in the media; it happened in the news, but in academic medical centers, I can attest that this is where the effect was most powerful. If you questioned anything, you would have the most severe repercussions to your job, to your future, to your opportunities, everything.

So a lot of people saw that in like this very kind of bird's eye level, but I was in the hospital. You know, we would see bad cases of abuse before, but the abuse we saw afterward was the most shocking thing I've ever seen.

So it's like during that time that I became very familiar with the sound a mother makes when you tell her that her child is dead. You know, that's a horrifying thing. So that was my first few years of training.

Let me summarize that just to make sure that we've got it. So the case you're making: you talked about this, the dawn of something approximating a subjective theory of truth, and you say that things really changed in March 2020. And then you make a causal claim; you said that in the throes of the pandemic lockdown, there were medical, hypothetically medical practices that were implemented that weren't based on evidence at all—social distancing, for example—and the use of masks. And if you opposed that, the introduction of a very strict form of censorship? Your sense is that that actually changed medical culture quite dramatically and quite suddenly, and maybe quite comprehensively.

And you saw that extend to the degree where we were allowing, or hospitals were allowing, or insisting that people who were ill suffered and died alone because they weren't allowed to see their loved ones. And then you said that you also saw the dramatic effects of those lockdown practices on children who I presume were exposed to more abuse, partly because that wasn't being monitored by schools, but also, I would imagine that the additional economic stress and sheer proximity to children that was produced by the lockdowns also exaggerated the conditions that would lead to abuse to begin with. You saw a perversion of the medical enterprise that you believed was quite profound.

Now why do you think you experienced that more dramatically in some sense, because you were at the bottom of the medical hierarchy at that point? Why do you think that gave you a particularly insightful viewpoint?

You know, the reason is because we would see these people every single day. The ones who would have to make the phone calls to the families was us. The people who would stay after and talk to the patients was us. You know, the breakdowns these people would have were experienced by us; we would see all the worst parts of it.

And, um, so yeah, that I believe laid the groundwork because when you have the entire medical establishment—every doctor who participates in this, right—they like adopt this sin, right, the shame because everyone knows it's wrong, but everyone’s doing it. And it’s kind of like you prepare them for what's next because if they don't speak out on that, then they're not going to speak out on anything else.

The only way this becomes as universal, as institutional as it has now, is if doctors don't say anything because what these people are proposing has zero therapeutic rationale, and that goes before evidence. That's upstream from evidence. Like if I take out an appendix, right, or take out someone's gallbladder, or a colon mass, because I think it's a tumor, I have to have a logic, a rationale.

I have to be able to identify a problem, make sure that the risks—the sorry, the benefits—outweigh the risks because whatever intervention we're applying, you have to do that calculus.

It's an interesting hypothesis you see; I hadn't considered the fact that acceptance of the lockdown lies, especially on the medical side, and the emergence of that cancel culture around any criticism set the stage for the next sequence of lies. I mean, there's other causal reasons I presume. I mean, I read a PDF a while back that was prepared by a marketing agency that described the growth opportunities on the transgender treatment front, the so-called gender-affirming side of medicine, which that gender-affirming phrase—that's like one of the most manipulative lies I've ever heard in my life.

It goes along with the legislation to forbid so-called conversion therapy, which I, as a therapist, know that nobody has been doing for like 70 years. That was a complete bloody lie right from the beginning. And so your claim is part of the reason that it spread so quickly was because there was a culture of compliance and silence that had already established itself firmly in the medical community.

I've never seen the medical and psychiatric community do anything worse in my entire life than what's been happening with so-called gender-affirming care.

And so what other reasons do you know that made this occur?

And just one more thing about what you said for the language: it’s so anti-language, right? It's not just a euphemism; it's not just a few degrees off from the truth; it’s not oriented towards the truth; it’s oriented towards the exact opposite—completely. It’s diametrically opposed to reality and to the truth.

You bet. It's really something to see, and like you are implying, most lies are just slightly off-kilter, right? That's how people get away with them. But there are specific forms of lies that are diametrically opposed to the truth, and they're obviously insanely pernicious. And that's exactly the situation with so-called gender-affirming care.

Okay, so what did you start seeing? You talked about the kids that you'd seen who'd been damaged by the COVID lockdowns and the increase in abuse, but that's a separate issue apart from the establishment of the culture that we're describing.

Yeah, so it was around 2021-2022. Everything with COVID is happening, and I'm a part of it, right? So there's a part where I've adopted this shame; I know this is wrong. I know these people are being harmed. I know that what medicine is doing is wrong, and people are losing things that can never be taken back. And that I'm a part of that because I was playing a role in it.

I mean, I tried to fight back everywhere I could, but you know, inside, I knew that there was a sense of shame right within me. But then it was during that time that the transgender issue proliferated, right? It became nationwide, worldwide.

You think that these things are happening in Washington State, Oregon, New York, California, but you don't think it's happening in Texas.

So the story starts in March 2022, where I was still a resident. The hospital, Texas Children's Hospital, had issued a public statement unequivocally saying they were going to shut down their transgender clinic because of potential criminal liability. And that last part is important because they acknowledged that issue—potential criminal liability.

The reason they released that statement in March of 2022 is because a few weeks before, the Attorney General of Texas, Ken Paxton, had issued an opinion saying that these interventions could be investigated as child abuse, which they are. So it makes sense why the hospital would release that statement, right? They need to protect themselves, avoid this criminal liability.

So they say, “We're shutting down the program.” And I knew that that was a lie unequivocally. The reason I knew that is because I worked there. I did surgery there. The people who were doing these procedures had told me they were doing these procedures.

So over the next couple of months, people I worked with had told me that, man, you know, I just implanted some puberty-blocking device in some 11, 12, 13-year-old kid who believes they're transgender. And I thought, man, that's odd. They released this statement a few weeks before.

So I thought maybe these ju—maybe like a few holdover cases—maybe they were scheduled beforehand. You know, I didn't believe it. It just seemed so absurd that the hospital would be lying about something like this. I just didn't think it was possible, right?

So over the next couple of months, it just gets worse and worse, more and more frequent, where it's becoming more frequent, but also the stories are getting crazier. Where you have these kids with tons of psychiatric issues—all those are being ignored, and they're just getting these drugs, whether blockers, hormones to affirm their gender.

So, but I still didn't believe it, right? It took me months. But then it was January of 2023 that all doubt was gone because it was during that time that the directors of the transgender program, the one that supposedly did not exist, were given the opportunity to speak at the hospital's most prestigious lecture series.

It's called Grand Rounds. This is a lecture that's given every single week. It’s like a—demonstrates a priority of the hospital. You have the directors of the transgender program who are talking to the entire department, talking about their algorithmic approach to the hormones and the blockers, advising general pediatricians to ask about gender identity behind the backs of their parents, talking about fertility preservation in 11, 12-year-old kids, talking about moments when kids get a little bit older.

And that was mind-blowing. But then even there was a few weeks after that, there was a Zoom conference with a few members of the transgender program with a group of 150 medical students, right? Like a public Zoom conference where you had one of the social workers who talked about how they actively concealed the existence of the program from governing state bodies, right, governing medical bodies, by saying instead of documenting consults, right, or giving documentation to parents, he would defer documentation—like just call in consults or just tell parents—the reason is to not leave a paper trail.

So these people were explicitly talking about how they were hiding this program.

How did you get access to that Zoom call?

Because they were public. The entire medical school— it was a medical student group who put on this conference, so anyone could join. There were like 150 people there. The grand lectures are open to every person, Texas Children's, every person born, so you have like hundreds if not over a thousand people who know the hospital said one thing, but they're doing the exact opposite thing behind closed doors.

And, um, so it took me months to make that conclusion because it's just so insane.

Right, right, of course. Well, you know, I talked to Michael Shellenberger after he broke the WPATH files, and Michael is obviously a journalist who he broke the Twitter files too—him and Taibbi and Barry Weiss, I think, was involved in that too, so he's not a coward. And he told me when we discussed the WPATH revelations that he had watched Abigail Shrier and I talk about her book “Irreversible Damage” and the harm that gender-affirming care, I just I can't even use those words, is doing to children. And he said that he couldn't believe it. It took him two years; it took him two years to admit to what might be going on.

And you know, it's obvious that you were suffering from the same conundrum, and it's not that surprising, right? Because watching something like that unfold is the sort of thing that makes you question your own sanity because you’re forced into a position where you think, well, either I'm seeing what's going on and a thousand people are ignoring it, even though it seems extremely pathological and illegal and anti-medical and immoral, and that that's casting a dim light on the entire profession.

Or you're going to wonder if maybe there's something wrong with your— the way you're looking at the world. And both of those are really stark and terrible choices. And so it's not surprising it took you a number of months before you would be even fully admit to what was going on.

What was your emotional state like at that point?

You really look at who you are, right? Like who am I as a person, right? Am I really a doctor? Am I a surgeon? Because that was like the question that was a question that was going through my mind. I never thought about—I never answered that question before. But because everything that happened during COVID, you know, I was so angry every day. I was angry, and my wife would tell me, like, “Aon, you’re angry.” My parents would tell me, “You’re angry.” And I'm like a very not angry person by disposition. Like I never—I never have been angry in the operating room, and that’s saying something, you know, for a surgeon to not be angry in the operating room. But I was angry. And I was because I hated to see what was happening to these people, to these kids, to even these adults, everyone, because everyone was taking on these lies.

But people were being harmed by it—people were dying alone, these kids were suffering, and I was seeing it every single day. So when I would come home, I was angry. But what I realized is that I was angry with myself because even though I'm at the bottom of the totem pole, like I still have a responsibility. If I'm a doctor, I'm a surgeon, I have to do something because my dad's a doctor, and he always told me, “You have to take care of your patients; that's the most important thing above anything else.” But he also said, “You have to take care of the profession; you have to be a good doctor; you have to represent yourself well.”

And I thought about everything he had told me, and was I representing medicine? Like, like surgery—was I being a doctor in that moment? I thought if I don't do something about this, I could never live with myself.

Right? You have the biggest Children's Hospital in the world lying to the public about a program that is manipulating, mutilating, and sterilizing young children. You have probably hundreds, if not a thousand people who know about it, and I know about it. So if I didn't do something—right? You know, my wife's pregnant; she's um, my kid—she's due in October, my first girl. She's going to be a daughter. If when she grows up and she looks back, what is she going to think of her father if I didn't do something and just let this happen? Because she's going to know.

So I thought I had to do something, and that was in January of 2023 where I thought, you know, the reason I'm angry is because of the shame within myself for not doing something. So, right, I knew that there were risks; I knew that there were things to fear, but there's something greater to fear rather than the consequences within this world.

Sleep is a foundation for our mental and physical health. In other words, you've got to have a consistent nighttime routine to function at your best. But if you're struggling with sleep, then you've got to check out Beam. Beam isn't your run-of-the-mill sleep aid; it's a concoction carefully crafted to help you rest without the grogginess that often accompanies other sleep remedies.

A bunch of us here at The Daily Wire count on Beam's Dream Powder to knock us out and sleep better through the night so we can show up ready for work the next day. Just mix Beam Dream into hot water or milk, stir or froth, and then enjoy before bedtime. Then wake up feeling refreshed without the next day grogginess caused by other sleep products.

Dream contains a powerful all-natural blend of Magnesium, L-Theanine, Apigenin, and Melatonin to help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up refreshed. And with it now being available in delicious flavors like Cinnamon Cocoa, Chocolate Peanut Butter, and Mint Chip, better sleep has never tasted better.

And today, listeners of this show can get a special discount on Beam's Dream Powder. Get up to 40% off for a limited time when you go to shopbeam.com/peterson and use code Peterson at checkout. That's shopbeam.com/peterson and use code Peterson for up to 40% off.

Okay, so I've got three questions: how many kids and adults do you think were affected by this so-called care during that time? What—how did you come to the conclusion about what to do? Because that's not straightforward, right? Not at all. And then what do you think was the higher-order issue that was at hand that was compelling you to both feel guilty and to speak?

Do you mind answering those in reverse order?

Sure, yeah. I—so in medicine, just like in anything else, the only way to live appropriately is to orient yourself by the truth, to live by the truth. There’s nothing you can get away with.

If you lie, you're going to pay for it. So that’s the higher-order principle that was in my mind that was driving that. But also—number two is something more physical, more granular—is that there were kids being harmed that I could do something about it. There were children who were an imminent threat of being harmed.

So, uh, how many—how many?

A lot. I can't necessarily give you the exact numbers because what I saw was limited—maybe probably hundreds—a lot, okay?

But then your first question is, so I have this information, right? I have to orient myself towards truth, right? In order to live, but also to fix this problem. There are kids who are going to be hurt, and I have the information, but what do I do about it?

Like, I'm a no one, right? I'm like a—I don't have social media; I'm very private. You know? I live in a very small town now. So I thought, well, we have to find someone who can do something about this. So we just started reaching out to anyone and everyone who might do something about it.

So it took us five months to get a hold of someone who would take this story, and we reached out to like tons of emails. I just sent emails to dozens of people.

Who's "us" that you're referring to?

Yeah, me.

Okay, fine, fine. I just wonder—well, the reason I ask is that one of the things that's useful to do if you ever find yourself in a situation like this is to see if there's a couple of other people around that you can trust that you can ally with because it's relatively easy to fire one person, but it’s a lot harder to do that with two, and it’s probably impossible to do it with four.

So, but you were doing this—you were doing this alone. And why do you think you had to do it alone?

Because the American academic medical system is like East Germany, like no joke. If there was a colleague who kind of thought the same way, we would physically go to dark, quiet corners and talk about these things, right?

But no, no, there is a culture of censorship and fear that is very real, and I can attest because I was there. I lived through it. It's unimaginable.

So no one's going to do anything like this, and I wouldn't want to necessarily involve people, you know, because, you know, especially we sacrificed so much to get to that point.

I mean, you know, many people would be—that's why it’s so easy for doctors to say, "I'm just not going to do anything. I'm not going to stay silent," right? But their calculus is incorrect.

So yeah, it was during that time I just would send emails to news organizations I thought would be receptive to the story or journalists. It took me five months because I think people just didn't believe me.

Well, that may be part of the reason. The other part of the reason might be that they're in a culture that's the same as yours because it's shocking. Look, I know what you're saying already to some degree. I mean, I'm being investigated by my college in Ontario for daring to question the gods of the transgender movement primarily, and so I know how pernicious and pervasive this is.

But I don't know the extent of it, and it could easily be that if it's a movement of silence that's infiltrated the medical and the psychological communities that it's no better in the world of especially in legacy media. In fact, maybe it's worse, and that could easily be the case.

So who did you reach out to, just out of curiosity, and then who finally responded?

Yeah, so I won’t say the names of the organizations, but these are the conservative organizations who would take a story like this, you know? So I want to be, you know, I want to have a degree of charity because, you know, they may have not believed me; they had other things going on. Like, I get it. You know, like I’m just some random guy who’s like emailing them a bunch of times probably thinking I’m some weirdo.

So, um, yeah, understand. But then, you know, after months, I finally get in touch with Christopher Rufo in like early to mid-2023. And he demonstrated some interest in the story, so we go through the vetting process to make sure I'm a real person; I'm a surgeon, I work there; that story is true.

And it was the perfect timing because I didn't know this at the time, but the Texas Senate was voting on the bill to ban these interventions in the state of Texas like a week later. So we go through this process to get the story ready, and then the story comes out on May 16th, 2023, and blows up in the news.

I think you even retweeted about it, if I remember correctly. But the story does exactly what we hoped it would do, right? I was the anonymous whistleblower; no one knew my name. The story had outlined how the hospital had lied to the public and not only continued the program but expanded it behind closed doors.

Within 24 hours of that story coming out, the Texas Senate passed that bill with bipartisan support banning the interventions that we had exposed, and it was passed with bipartisan support partly because our story came out the day before because there were multiple Democrats who didn't know this kind of thing was happening in their districts.

And the reason I know that is because I spoke with the guy who wrote that law, and he had told me that they had printed out physical copies of our story and handed it out to every single member of the Texas Senate. So, within 24 hours of our story coming out, the conduct we had exposed was voted to become illegal in the state of Texas.

Yeah, well, it was probably the case too that the Democrats that you're speaking of, and the Republicans as well, were also very loath to believe this. You know, I've talked to many Democrat congressmen and Senators, especially at the federal level, and especially the Republicans are often blind to what's really going on, let’s say, in higher education, in medical schools, for example.

They’re 10 years behind the time or 15 years behind the time, but the Democrats are, I would say, willfully blind to the pervasiveness and danger of the radicals that are within their midst. Say, for example, that when someone like Kamala Harris says “equity,” that all she means is equality of opportunity, which is complete bloody rubbish.

She uses a different word, and if she's not smart enough to know the difference, then she's too stupid to be vice president, that's for sure. And if she does know the difference, then she's too ideologically corrupt to even be a proper citizen of the United States, and so she's damned if she does and damned if she doesn’t as far as I’m concerned.

And the fact that the modern Democrats enable that kind of idiot ideology is unforgivable.

Okay, so you got a hold of Chris Rufo, and he brought the story forward. You’re anonymous at this point. It makes a legislative difference. What happens at the hospital?

Bring us forward from May 2023.

So I'm anonymous at this point; no one knows who I am. I'm so busy with surgery; it's like nothing even happened. A few days after that, another whistleblower comes out, someone who worked in the transgender clinic, who actually worked with these doctors and was horrified by what was happening.

So this person comes out in another story released by Christopher Rufo a few days later. The Attorney General, a few days after that, announces an investigation to the hospital. Then about a week and a half after, the CEO of Texas Children's says that he's going to shut down the program in accordance with Senate Bill 14.

After that, everything goes quiet. That was May of 2023. I was getting ready to finish my residency, my surgical training, because that was my chief year of the program.

So you're doing all this while you're not even completely finished with your medical training?

So this really is your introduction into modern medicine as it's practiced currently.

I can't believe—I can't imagine how demoralizing that would be. But it's for that reason I did it, right? It’s because of what I was seeing.

Of course, someone has to do something about it because if I want to pass on a career, a profession to my children, a world to my children, I have to do it when it's the most difficult thing to do, right? It's like, what option did I have? So, of course, you know?

But yeah, and it's kind of funny to say that because it was on the day of my graduation from surgical training that the next part of the story gets really wild.

Because five weeks later, the day I'm graduating from surgical training—one of the most important days of my life, right? You spend all this time sacrificing; you miss all these important events. So, it's a Friday, June 23rd. We have the ceremony in a couple of hours; I'm about to meet with my family; my wife and I are just getting ready in our apartment when all of a sudden, I get an aggressive knock on the door.

I think, man, like that’s weird. Like, who could this be? So, I shuffle over, I open it, and standing outside are two federal agents with Health and Human Services. They show me their badges and tell me that they're investigating a case regarding medical records.

So in that moment, everything just—you freeze, right? Your mind just shuts down. But in the back of my mind, like, you know, in my cerebellum somewhere, you know, I just knew they were there to make an example out of me because I was anonymous.

We were able to tell this story; a bill got passed, another whistleblower came out; they had to shut down the program. If I was able to do this, how many other people were able to do this, right?

It was a challenge to the dominant political ideology, of course. I knew that's kind of what was going on, but you freak out in the moment. So I invite them in; we sit down, and they want—

So you figured that out right away; you basically figured that out right away. How the hell did they know who you were given that the story had broken anonymously?

Well, they had most likely used a huge amount of federal resources to pursue this investigation in that time to find out it was me. They had to mobilize the agents, do an investigation, right? Find all their evidence, surveil me to find out when I was going to be home, surveil me to find out when I was graduating, find out where my address was, and then come to my home a few hours before I was graduating.

So, you know, it's like—when you think they timed that, do you think they timed that to coincide with your graduation?

And also—who is “they” as far as you know? Like, who—obviously, the hospital wouldn't be very happy with you because they had to shut down this program, and then there are people pulling the strings behind the scenes to keep the program going.

But who do you believe or perhaps know was behind the investigation into the whistleblowing?

Well, you know who runs Health and Human Services and the FBI and the different legal organizations that want to see this pursued.

So, yeah, you have the most powerful people in the country who I believe are behind this, and I think the timing was exactly what they were intending because they have to use the value of that accomplishment, the meaning of that day, as their method to extort the threat, right?

They have to use that as the extortion for my compliance because they know I'm starting my career. In order to preserve that, they need to do that so that I comply with them; I admit to something that never happened so that I can participate in some phony investigation and then close the door permanently for other whistleblowers in the country.

But as they’re coming to find out, you know, they knocked on the wrong door because that day we decided to fight.

But you know, when they were setting up their, you know, little tripod to do an interview, my wife comes out; she was getting ready, and luckily my wife is a brilliant attorney. She's actually an Assistant U.S. Attorney at the Department of Justice.

So my wife works at the Department of Justice; she's a lawyer in the Northern District of Texas. She had been hired at the time, and that's an important point later in the story—just kind of put that in the back of your mind. But she comes out, and we both look at each other and we’d say, "Bad idea." We go to our bedroom and we both say, you know what, not a good idea to speak with them without an attorney present.

We go back out and we tell them, you know, we won’t speak with them further. They say, okay; they pack up their things. Before leaving, they hand me a target letter. It's just a piece of paper that says, “I am a potential target of a criminal investigation,” and it’s signed by an Assistant U.S. Attorney in the Southern District of Texas.

So we knew that a few minutes after that door opened, you know, the door closes; our lives are going to be changed forever because we had a choice just like before, you know? Do we fight back? Do I fight back, right? Do I submit to this ideology? Do I compromise everything I believe in?

You know, everything I believe my profession to be? You know, do I compromise what was happening to these children? So there was no question; there was no way I would allow that to happen.

So, you know, I decided to fight that day, and we've been fighting ever since.

What do you think they wanted from you? Like, they presumed, I imagine, or knew that you were the whistleblower at that point, and they came using these very sophisticated, I would say, and well-thought-through intimidation tactics—extraordinarily well-timed, I would say, sadly timed.

But you’ve already broken the story, and so you’ve done most of the damage that you could do arguably. What do you think they wanted from you at that point?

Fear and compliance. Because they needed, right? It's not the typical justice system, right, where it's these people who are actually pursuing the truth in order to obtain justice. This is the exact opposite.

When you become a target of a corrupt justice system investigation, people believe that when you comply, when you give into them, you're actually going to make it better for yourself, but it's the exact opposite because it's their virtue, it’s the truth that they are targeting.

So you believe that your participation, right, if you’re innocent, will exonerate you, but it’s the exact opposite. It's because you’re innocent, because you’re virtuous, that they're targeting you in the first place. And I knew that at that point because I was able to see all these investigations over the previous couple of years where this was happening.

So at that point, I already had the framework in my mind, like this is a corrupt Department of Justice.

What kind of investigations are you referring to that you had seen over the previous years?

If you think about the main political investigations into political opponents of the Democratic Party over the past four years—so for example, if you look at, um, anyone who spoke out during COVID, if you look at Douglas Mackey, if you look at the abortion protesters who are being sent to prison for 10, 20 years for the FACE Act for sitting in front of a clinic—right?

Your compliance does not exonerate you, right? It's because you're innocent, because of your virtue that you're being targeted in the first place. So I knew that—it was obvious.

So I still don't exactly understand what you said. They wanted your compliance, but compliance with regard to what? For you to retract your accusations? You’re telling me that you knew that complying wasn’t going to help you, but I still don't understand exactly what they hoped to accomplish other than to intimidate you and to stop other whistleblowers. Is that the gist of it?

You know, that's actually a really good question because compliance toward what? I believe they needed me to comply, right, in order to admit to a crime to grovel at their feet, to issue some, you know, some fake apology for doing the right thing.

It might be easy to just toss all of your discipline to the side for the summer, but a life of greatness doesn't happen by taking the easy route. The Hallow app offers an incredible range of guided meditations and prayers that are designed to help you deepen your spirituality and strengthen your connection to God.

With Hallow, you can embark on a journey of exploration, diving into different themes and types of prayer and meditation from gratitude to forgiveness. Each session offers a unique experience, sparking your curiosity and deepening your spiritual understanding.

You can choose different lengths of meditation to fit your schedule, whether you have a few minutes or an hour. With its user-friendly interface and hundreds of guided meditations, the Hallow app has quickly become a go-to resource for people seeking spiritual growth and healing.

You can download the app for free at hallow.com/jordan. It allows you to set prayer reminders and track your progress. Hallow is truly transformative, and it’ll help you connect with your faith on a deeper level.

Don’t lose your prayer habits this summer; maintain your peace and deepen your relationship with God. Download the Hallow app today at hallow.com/jordan for an exclusive 3-month trial. That’s hallow.com/jordan.

So basically, tell us what exactly the charges were. So I see, so they brought these charges forward to you, and the presumption was that possibly you could admit to them, hypothetically. That would mean things would go easier for you, which is completely not true, but then it would also discredit you and serve as an object lesson or warning to anybody who was going to pull the curtain back in the future.

Okay, so what exactly did they accuse you of?

So at that point, it's completely unclear, and that’s where it goes into the next part of the story. But I think it’s, yeah, it’s the point where they needed to make an example out of me. They needed to make me into a criminal, right? Because if they could do that, of course, they shut the door permanently to every other whistleblower in the healthcare system in our country.

Yeah, they shut it—well, they discredit you too, exactly, right? And that’s going to be very convenient because, you know, you could imagine that Ken Paxton, for example, and the rest of the Texan Republicans aren't going to take the rebellion of the Texas Children's Hospital and their lies lying down.

So you play a pivotal role in that. Their best strategy is to discredit you and turn you into a criminal, obviously.

Okay, so continue with the story. Let it continue to unfold.

Yep, so after that, right, what do we do, right? So my wife and I—we had the graduation; we go on our patio and we celebrate. So we put on Vietnam War music, we open a bottle of champagne, and we celebrate because at that point, what do you do?

And, uh—well, good for you, so you went on with the celebration, of course.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we had, and it was kind of one of those moments where you look back, you’re like, “Oh my God, that’s completely insane,” but like, what else could you do, right? When the federal government comes knocking at your door, right? You have to fight back.

Well, I also think when you're shocked like that, you tend to revert to what would be typical and habitual behavior, you know, ‘cause you don’t know what else to do. I mean, what the hell do you do when the feds come knocking at your door because you've blown the whistle on people in your children's hospital who are mutilating kids? Like, that’s a nightmare! That’s really beyond comprehension, and so it's not like you're going to know how to react.

Yeah, and it was at that point that once you cross the Rubicon, you know, you're never going to go back to that life—you become this new person. Like, you’re entering this unknown world—we don’t know what it’s going to be, right? It’s like complete darkness, but you know you have faith it’s the right place to go.

So we got in touch with our attorneys, right, through Christopher Rufo; brilliant people. Marcel Burke—she's amazing; she's a fighter. So we knew she was the right person for the case. Over the next couple of months, we go into like this state of legal purgatory where we have no idea what's going on, what they're investigating, anything because we had exposed that the hospital was lying. They were doing something that they acknowledged held criminal liability, right?

It's like I'm a whistleblower; I had made this public; a law got passed within 24 hours. Like, what could they be potentially doing? But it was over the next six months that the corruption we saw coming from the Department of Justice was so severe that I had no choice but to take this story public.

Um, because I had no intention of doing this; you know, we moved to a very small town and I worked in an even smaller town. We just wanted to get on with our lives, you know? Like, you know, have a family, you know, operate on my patients and take care of them.

But it was during those six months where we knew that I would be destroyed if I stayed silent, and that’s why I took my story public.

To outline that a little bit more, after I took my story public in January of 2024, six months after my attorney had sent a letter to Congress outlining that misconduct in a letter to Jim Jordan. And just to give you an example of a few things, you know—

Oh yes, so the misconduct you’re speaking of, the misconduct—sorry, you're speaking of the misconduct of the Department of Justice officials specifically.

Yeah, okay.

And the misconduct you're referring to is, is it limited to their intervention in your case and their ill-defined threats towards you, or were there more things? You said that you became aware of more things, as well.

Yeah, well, it was the interactions between my attorney and the prosecutors, and it was so shocking that my attorneys felt obligated to blow the whistle themselves in this letter. So it was, for example—

Okay, yeah, so the prosecutor in this letter says that she was going to bring me to a jury trial even if she was going to lose, even on a technicality. And what that means is if there's no crime, then you just pursue it if you're going to lose, the implication being, right?

The belief is that they’re doing this to an innocent person because I had blown the whistle, right? So they’re essentially telling us this; they had threatened my wife. My wife was undergoing a background check for the Department of Justice.

During those instances, you know, in this letter, it says that one of the first things that was brought up was that she says, “Well, you know, I'm surprised Andrea would interfere with an investigation like this. You know, she won’t have any problems unless she continues to become a problem.”

And what she was referring to was my wife advising me of my constitutional rights. Not only that, you know, it’s also saying I had no right to blow the whistle—that it wasn’t my job to blow the whistle on what was happening—that if I had an issue, I should have just stood outside with a sign.

And it was over those months where, you know, I made the conclusion these people are going to come after me no matter what.

No matter what I did.

You well, you said something very relevant is like I told you earlier that Shellenberger had a hard time believing what Shrier and I had discussed. And then I’ve also—and so that just shows you how difficult it is for people to believe what’s actually going on.

But then also, it’s the case that when someone like you pops up, or arguably someone like me, say, in relation specifically to the Ontario College of Psychologists, it’s a lot easier for everyone to assume that you're a troublemaker or that I’m a troublemaker, that there’s something fundamentally wrong with us and that the institution that we’re criticizing couldn’t possibly be that corrupt.

And like that impulse to demonize the whistleblower is valid when institutions are mostly sane and have integrity, and our institutions were mostly sane and had integrity until quite recently.

And what that also implies is that it’s very hard for anyone to overcome their suspicion of, let’s say, someone like you. When I first heard about your case in detail, I had tweeted you out a year ago or so, as you pointed out.

But I became more aware of what was going on with you again in recent months. There’s this little part in the back of my mind thinking—oh, this guy, he’s probably just a troublemaker; he’s probably just a narcissist, you know? Because even though I know that that could well be not true, right?

And I have more reason to know that than most people. And so what that also implies is that moving ahead with a case against you is perfectly—it's a perfectly logical strategic move even if they know you’re innocent and if it's doomed to failure because the mere fact that you'll be dragged through the courts is enough to have 25% of people or 50% of people write you off as probably a criminal.

You know, where there's smoke, there’s fire; there’s no way you would be being prosecuted if you hadn’t done something wrong.

So it’s a very smart strategy.

Yeah, and especially it’s especially smart because there's going to be no consequences for them, right? They can bring this case, right? It’s based on nothing, and they will become princes and princesses in this new empire of lies, right? Their loyalty to the cause to go after an innocent person is like their own blood sacrifice.

If they can protect this evil ideology, if they can protect the harming of these children, then they are demonstrated to be loyal, subservient. But then I thought—it’s like people are waking up to it, right? Like people are seeing the justice system for what it is; this is a corrupt investigation. This whole thing is corrupt, and I’m going to be destroyed, right?

Or worse, especially when you think about what's happened to other whistleblowers, right, like in Boeing’s case?

Yeah, right, no kidding! If you’re a problem—

So I thought the only way to survive this, you know, both theoretically and possibly physically, is to tell this story because it’s going to happen either way.

Yeah, right, so yeah.

Okay, so, let me ask you again here. So you mentioned earlier who was leading the charge in the legal battle against you. So let’s return to that for a minute because, in so far as it's possible and correct, I would like the people who are doing this not to be hidden.

Now you mentioned Assistant Attorney General in the South of Texas. Is that the person who's pursuing this case?

Yep, yep, and people can find it, you know, if they’re interested; they can find out who that person is.

Okay, okay, fine, fine; we’ll leave it at that.

All right.

And so why are you loath to make the name public now, just out of—I'm not going to pressure you; I'm just curious.

No, just out of caution, you know, and also just for that.

Okay, okay, yeah.

Okay, that's fine. That's fine. All right, so Aon, you mentioned Paxton’s or maybe the Senate’s proclamation that the practices that the children’s hospital were engaging in could be construed as criminal.

You know, I’m curious at an international crimes level because I think there’s every reason to assume that the sterilization and mutilation of children is actually a crime against humanity.

It’s not a mere form of criminal activity, mere. And I do believe, I mean, I’m not a lawyer, and that’s a problem, but I read the relevant description of what constitutes a crime against humanity, and if this doesn’t qualify, then, well, either my comprehension is addled or the legislation is written badly; those are the options as far as I can tell.

And you know, just to take a little detour for a second, you know, I would actually challenge that, right? Like, Dr. Peterson, I would say that this is already a crime, right? It’s always been a crime. If a patient comes into my clinic, right, I was doing surgery earlier today; I was in clinic tomorrow.

Someone comes into my clinic and they say, “Dr. Heim, I’m so overweight; I’m so overweight. I need a gastric sleeve, and I need this surgery. I need it because you need to affirm who I am.” But they’re skinny, right? If I were to operate on that person and do a gastric sleeve, right, because they told me that, I lose my license; I go to prison.

What's happening here is no different, but it's worse because, right, all of our overt windows—our Overton window has shifted for this one single issue. Everywhere else it’s correct, but because this was infused with politics from the beginning, our Overton window has shifted.

All we have to do is shift, and you already showed too, though, in your earlier description, is the Overton window for what constituted acceptable medical evidence shifted terribly during the pandemic, and that set the stage for this next sequence of lies.

The fact that we’ve accepted the shift of that Overton window with regard to medical practice in this one domain means, for sure, it’s going to shift in other ways; right? You can see this happening already.

There are already papers being published in psychological journals disputing the validity of the diagnosis of borderline personality disorder, for example.

And now it’s not surprising that the borderline personality disordered people are pushing that agenda because that’s exactly what you’d expect from people with borderline personality disorder.

But it’s definitely an indication of the increasing politicization of the diagnostic and counseling clinical enterprise, right? And so once you get some of that poison in the system, it’s not going to just sit there; it’s going to disseminate through the whole system.

Okay, so now how—by this point now you’re in January; you’ve sent this letter to Jim Jordan. Walk us through the letter and then what his response was, if you would.

Yeah, so—the say who Jim Jordan is too for people because not everyone will know.

Yeah, so Jim Jordan is a congressman who is the chairman of the House subcommittee on the weaponization of the Department of Justice. He’s a patriot; he’s a great guy.

We had released this letter; the letter had outlined this profound misconduct that the letter says that the prosecutor didn’t even know the details of the case before sending agents to my home.

Despite the fact that she didn’t know the details of the case, she did enough research to find out my wife was undergoing a background check and used that as a threat. You know, that the letter says that, um, you know, I had no right to blow the whistle; I had no right to try to protect these kids who were being harmed.

The letter says that they were going to take me to a jury trial even if they were going to lose, even if it’s on a technicality, indicating that the law doesn’t matter to them, that they’re going to do whatever they want, whenever they want, to whoever they want.

And it was at that point that I knew for sure, as an absolute fact, that I had to do something. So we sent that letter; that was after I took my story public.

And the reason I took it public, you know, as I said before, was because once you tell the story publicly, the corruption becomes self-evident because it’s what—and what you said earlier, it’s like when people hear it, like they naturally think, man, there’s this guy; he’s probably a criminal; he’s probably a scumbag.

But like I wouldn’t let them define the story. If I’m going to go through this, it’s going to be on my terms, right? I’m not going to let them lie just like they have everything else to manipulate, to cheat, to coerce. In this case, I have control. Even though, you know, everyone would think I’m like the one who’s least in control when you’re the focus of an investigation by a corrupt Department of Justice, you think you’re not in control; but you have all the control because the only way for them to maintain their legitimacy is through your compliance, right?

But it’s only through your compliance that you get destroyed. So I took the story public, and the reason was just to protect myself, but also because the story is meaningless unless there’s offense, right?

And most of our politicians aren’t doing it, right? Most of the people who we elect to represent us aren’t doing it; there are some good ones, but now it’s our responsibility, right?

And during those six months where I was anonymous, we had spent over $250,000—all of our savings, our investments, everything.

Like, we’re broke; we’re going to be broke for a long time. That’s okay. But we had gone on the offense too, you know, to try to defend these bills, to try to develop cases not only to protect whistleblowers, but also to make sure this doesn’t happen in the future.

But, um, so I come out in January of 2024 with my story publicly. Over the next few months until June, a week and a half ago, I’m just public, right? You know, I was working as a surgeon at the time.

So walk us through that. Walk us through that. You brought it out publicly with Chris Rufo again, and then what happened to the story?

Yeah, well, it kind of blew up, you know? It was like my whole world kind of turned inside out in some ways. But then in many ways, it was just completely normal because I go to work, I see my patients, I operate, and I just do that, and I’m very busy.

But then there’s this other world where it’s like this thing is hanging over my head, where you still have no idea what’s going to happen, right? But we wanted to be able to tell the story, right, to make sure that people knew the truth.

So, you know, I did interviews with Tucker Carlson.

Who have you talked to?

Who else? Tucker Carlson, Dr. Phil, John Pavo, “That's Saves America,” Laura Ingraham, I mean so many people, I’m probably missing a lot.

Kyle Serafin, the FBI whistleblower. Really, really good people.

Gays Against Groomers; I talked to them, really good people. And, um, I actually got the WPATH files before it came out from the Shellenberger team because it was a few months after.

Now, I believe that there are four charges, specific charges pending against you now; is that the case?

That they have something to do with illegal access of medical records?

Can you do us a favor and, like, steal man the charges against you so that we understand what case they're trying to build? What are they claiming that you did?

Now, you said it was very amorphous to begin with, and that the prosecutor hadn't even really reviewed the case before she sent the agents to your house. I presume that they've sharpened the case now; they've sharpened the dagger.

And so I’ve heard that you’re facing like a very high fine and actually a fairly extensive potential prison sentence, something in the neighborhood of 10 years.

So walk us through that, if you would.

MH, yeah, so over these six months, right, I have no idea what's going on. But June 4th—not too long ago—three federal U.S. marshals, heavily armed, show up to my door at 7 AM, right? Another show of force.

Hand—yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure, yeah. You know, bulletproof vests, guns, everything. So they hand me an indictment saying that I am being charged with four felonies this past Monday, two days ago, or a few days ago, the indictment was unsealed.

Because I’m facing this trial, I can't talk about the indictment in any detail, you know, just out of caution, out of prudence.

You know, there's people—people can read it themselves, but the one thing I will say where would they find it and then walk us through it?

Um, so, yeah, I—unfortunately, I can't go through the—and it’s related to—I can't go into detail about it, and the one thing I will say is that, you know, people can find it at like the U.S. DOJ website; there’s like a press release about it, and, you know, there’s stories written in different media journals.

I can't think of anyone off the top of my head, but the one thing I will say about it now is my reaction to it, right?

Because on Monday, when the indictment was unsealed, when I read it for the first time, I had two emotions. Right in the first one—it sounds odd—but it was vindication, right? Almost a degree of relief where I thought my heart was going to sink, but then I read it, and I was like, “Oh my God, these—thees charges are as divorced from reality as the interventions they’re trying to cover up.”

So it’s—you know, you know, I had that that same experience, you know, last Christmas; I have 13 charges against me now. They’re not criminal charges, but they’re charges that would culminate in me either being re-educated, which is what I’m hypothetically sentenced to now, or losing my license.

So now I had to review all 13 charges last Christmas, and that was quite an onerous task as you can imagine. There are like 30 pages of documentation per charge, so that’s like 400 pages of charges. And you know, um, I have a bit of a guilty conscience as a temperamental feature.

And so I suppose I regarded myself the same way I might regard another troublemaker and think, “Well, you know, maybe I did something wrong that I haven’t paid attention to,” and so I was leery about going through these charges. But what happened, it took me three days.

What happened in the end was two things. I was relieved, and I was my jaw was dropped further open at the sheer magnitude of the incompetence and stupidity of my opponents. The things they charged me with were, first of all, virtues.

I came away from that thinking, “Oh, well, you know, if these are the people I'm up against fundamentally, there’s no real problem.” So I can understand your paradoxical emotion as a consequence of reviewing the charges, even though it’s a pain in the neck, and it’s hyper-expensive, as you’ve already discovered.

And, you know, they can do me reputational damage as they can do you. You know, it’s funny you say relief because that’s what it is, you know? But because you look at it, you’re like, “This can't be real.”

But I don’t think it’s incompetence; it’s not incompetence, right? Because there’s no way the most powerful federal investigative agency on this planet can be so incompetent. This is intentional, just like in your case, right?

And I knew. So at first, right, it’s like I feel a degree of relief, vindication. This is a political prosecution, like I said. You know, I knew it was the right thing to take this story public, to tell it so that people knew the truth.

But then the second thing was just this visceral fear. Right? This visceral fear because I know that I face 10 years in prison; I might miss the birth of my first daughter, right? She’s due in October; I can lose everything I’ve ever worked for, right?

I could lose everything we’ve already lost—everything we’ve ever saved up, all of our investments, our retirement, everything. But the thought on Monday of standing in front of that judge, right, where you know you have these other people who are in there, and then you know, these cocaine traffickers and, you know, some people who are pedophiles, then I'm there too, right?

And there’s fear—there's a visceral fear. But then there’s that, but there’s also one thing more, right? It’s like this fear of what happens if I don’t fight back; if we don’t push forward, the fear of kneeling to this ideology, of submitting to these corrupt, vicious people who want to take away all the virtues that make this country great.

Because it's like these are things in the physical world that they can do to us, but there’s something I believe that transcends what happens in our lives, and if I submit to this, I fear what happens then.

So even though I'm scared of what I face moving forward, what kind of world is my daughter going to have if I don’t do something about it? We have to do something now.

So it’s—you know, since then, you know, there’s fear, but there's resolve, right? We have to fight; we have to stand up; we have to make this right. Because if we don’t, then what kind of—we say we love our children; we're willing to sacrifice for them, but what does that mean?

Like, are we really willing to sacrifice for our kids if we're not willing to do something like this? Do we really love our kids if we're not willing to stand up for them in this way to sacrifice, you know, every part of ourselves?

No, you can't say you—I don’t believe that. I believe that if you love your children, the only way to really love them is to sacrifice for them, and if that means sacrificing what’s happening to me, then I’ll take this fight.

So let me ask you another question here, if that's okay. So this is just a practical question, and then I'll ask something that's more conceptual.

How is it that you're still practicing?

I work with good people, the best people. And I'm a good doctor; I'm a good surgeon.

Right before I did this interview, I was doing a very, very complicated surgery.

Yeah, but I'm amazed they haven't suspended you or done something to trump up a situation that makes it impossible for you to continue.

You know, I'll tell you what; there's one thing I realized once I took my story public. You think you’re—you think you’re going into this world that is darkness, right? That you’re going to be destroyed, that everyone’s going to come after you.

And you think you’re going to lose everything, but then what I realize—that it’s the exact opposite, right? Where you gain everything. Where you meet the best people in the world.

Where people from all over the world will support you. Where you can live for the first time with dignity; you can look at yourself in the mirror, and you can say, you know, I’m not lying to myself.

I can call myself a doctor, but this is true; this is not something that is not real, right? And people understand that, right? People can see that.

Like, he told this story; he took a risk with telling the story, and he might—whatever he faces, right? But he told the story. And you know what? People have been willing to stand behind me, and that includes my patients, the people I work with.

And it’s the most amazing thing because you know, the day the federal agents came, you know, of course it was crazy. I had to take like an hour or two to recollect myself, but I went to work; I rounded on like 20 patients, sick patients. I operated because that’s my job; I have to take care of these people no matter what.

And it doesn’t mean anything if I don’t do that because I believe I was put on this earth to take care of sick people. So no matter what happens, I have to do that.

So I’m still working because I think people understand that. People understand more what’s happening to this country, right? They understand what this is, and they understand my story because it’s happening to other people; it’s happening to me.

They know it’s going to happen to them next.

Next question: What were your political beliefs and your degree of political involvement before you started to see the ideological corruption and cowardice emerge in the medical profession? Were you a political person and, if so, where would you have placed yourself on the political spectrum?

You know, I think like so many kind of prominent, or like a lot of people—and I think yourself included—I was a big-time lefty for a long time, up until about college.

You know, you know, I kind of just—you become part of this milieu, right? This social, cultural, educational milieu where your natural state is just to be on the left. So that’s where I was.

But it was in my 20s that I kind of started to wake up to what was happening in the world, and a lot of it was because of Israel. Like, my family’s from Israel; my dad's from Iraq, they're Iraqi Jews, and they moved to Israel in the beginning.

My mom is German; she’s Christian, but she converted. That’s where she met my dad; she moved to Israel, and they met.

But it kind of started this—my eyes started to open, you know, over the next decade between like 21, 22, and like now, where—and it was also during that time, I just started reading like hundreds and hundreds of books about history and fiction and everything—politics, economics.

And because I always thought, I’d read these books and I thought like our lives are so tame, right? They’re—we live in such a privileged time that nothing like this is ever going to happen. You know, reading stories about World War II and before and what my family had to go through in Israel or in Germany.

And I thought that it would never happen, right? But then over the next couple, really, you know, since 2020, I thought everything's changed, right? Now, people like us are in the center of those stories, and what I thought would never happen in my lifetime is now happening.

But one thing I always remember from those stories is that the people—there's no lying to yourself; there's no giving in and getting away with it because the truth will always prevail.

It might take you—you might have to sacrifice your life; you might have to sacrifice a lot, but in those cases, the truth always prevails, and people always remember the people who did the right thing when it was the most difficult thing to do.

So I kind of made that transformation towards becoming more conservative. But yeah, for a long time, I was a big old lefty.

So I’m curious, Dr. Heim, I’ve spent an ungodly amount of money fighting off the bureaucrats from the Ontario College of Psychologists. It’s—it’s ridiculous. And so luckily, I suppose I have the money although that’s not just luck, I might point out.

But I don’t understand how you’re managing this. You said you already spent all your savings, and all your money at hand is something approximating $250,000.

How in the world are you funding it, and is there anything people can do to help?

Yeah, so ever since the agents came to my home, June 23, 2023, we knew we had to take this case forward. So we were funding it completely by ourselves, so we spent at this point over probably almost $300,000 at this point, everything we’ve ever invested—all of our savings, all of our retirement; every paycheck we get goes to it.

And I don’t say that as like a victim because to be able to fight this; it’s a privilege to be able to fight for a future for our children. But if people do want to help, you know, the fund—we need it; you know we absolutely need it to fight this case in federal trial.

It’s going to be upwards of a million dollars, and if they do want to donate, they can go to conservativelygendgo.com/texaswhistleblower. And it’s the most amazing thing to see, you know, how many people have come out in support. You know, every single message, every single donation, my wife and I, we read it every single night; every single message we read it multiple times because it’s like—I said before, where it’s like, this world that you think you’re going into, you think it’s darkness, and you think you’re going to be destroyed.

But there’s actually this entire world where there are people who are willing to support you, and we need to fight, and that’s what we’re going to do. And there’s no way that I’m going to dishonor the sacrifices of everyone who’s donated to our legal fund.

Well, that’s one of the mysteries of telling the truth is that you end up being surrounded by people who have devoted themselves to telling the truth, and that’s a really good deal.

Okay, so let’s close with this—when we go over to the Daily Wire side, everybody watching and listening, I'm going to spend another half an hour with Dr. Heim on The Daily Wire side. I think what we're going to talk about there rather than the autobiographical tack that I often take, and I think what we'll talk about is why he thinks specifically the transgender madness has taken over the clinical and medical world because there’s other ways the lie could have gone.

So we're going to delve into that a bit more. What I would like to close this part with, unless there's something else specifically that you'd like to bring up that we haven't covered, is what the hell is going to happen next to you?

What do you think is going to happen, and what do you want to have happen? What’s your plan?

So what happens from here is we fight; we go to trial. We have to win because if we don’t, the ability for people in American healthcare to blow the whistle—that door will be closed forever. I have to do it for my profession; I have to do it for my children.

We have to do it for them because they’re the ones who are in most imminent risk of their lives being unalterably changed. And you know, like how much I look forward to seeing my daughter and having children—this is being taken away from them at the time when they least understand the implications of their actions, when they least understand the consequences.

Okay, so you alluded earlier to something I just want to get straight. I saw, I think his name is Cenk Uygur; he's one of The Young Turks—particularly well, we won’t get into that. He claimed the other day on Piers Morgan that it’s a very, very small number of children, if any, that this is happening to.

But you made the case earlier in the podcast that at the Texas Children’s Hospital alone, it was something in the run of hundreds that are at least being put on puberty blockers, and that’s no trivial thing—the hormonal intermediation.

The idea that that’s fully reversible is absolute bloody nonsense. But do you have a sense of just what magnitude this problem is and then of what the magnitude is in terms of the full movement towards surgical intervention among specifically among minors, let’s say?

I know that the rate, the diagnosis rate has gone way up; it’s now at minimum thousands and thousands of children who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

But I’m—this is more specific on the medical side, being administered hormonal interventions. And now, I know once that happens, the probability of progressing to surgery is quite high, so what kind of numbers do you think we're looking at here?

So I want to answer your question in two ways. So specifically, the numbers I would say—hundreds of thousands. And it's important for people to understand that once these children are being put in this position, right, they become a chronic medical patient for life because puberty blockers are not reversible, right?

And especially because by their own protocol, they shut off any exit ramp; they shut off any alternative because any alternative is prevented by the threat of their own suicide. They’re blackmailed into one pathway forward.

So they’re not meant to be on puberty blockers for a short period of time. Like, I would implant puberty blockers in kids who actually had precocious puberty—this early onset when they’re like six years old; they start, you know, having sons.

But you take them out right when they become, you know, 11, 12, 13 years old. But in this case, they’re meant to block the entirety of puberty, then hormones, then surgery.

But the reason we can't give you an exact number is because there are illicit uses of drugs over the internet, right?

Right, yes.

But then I want to answer your question a second way because those are numbers; those are just statistics. The—after I took my story public, I got in touch with like this underground network of mothers and fathers in Dallas.

These people reached out to me because they wanted to involve me in what they were doing. These are mothers and fathers who've had a child affected by this—people like me and you.

Many of them are classical liberals, conservatives, but their kids have been taken in by this transgender ideology. And there was no network for them, so this underground network of parents had formed like in the shadows; like they all had signals, very shadowy, but they have a huge amount of impact behind the scenes—like they work on legislation, they work on bills; it’s amazing.

But I recently went to a meeting at one of their homes; I’m very close with one of them. I can't even say her name because they—all of them want to be public. But these people are—I’ve never heard stories like this.

I mean, it's—You know, but they tell me stories about their kids and, you know, whether they're in high school or middle school or if they're older and how they got groomed by a, you know, a counselor, a friend, someone online, and they come to him one day and say, “I’m transgender; I need these drugs.”

And then a lot of them, you know, they don’t know what to do, right? And they lose their children. So they tell these stories about how these children are gone; they haven’t talked to them in years. Some of them are being trafficked; some of them, you know, have lost their jobs; they’re addicted to drugs.

But you see the pain in their eyes, right? That the person they love the most is gone forever. That the things they wanted for their children is gone forever.

So when Cenk Uygur says that this is only a few kids, first of all, that’s not true, but these statistics—they have faces, right? This is a person; this is a mother and a father; this is a brother and a sister; these are people who've lost a person they love the most.

And it’s—

Yeah, or this is a young woman like Chloe Cole who no longer has breasts and will never recover from her surgery.

Yeah, right, and I—it’s not obvious to me how many children you need like that before actually you should pay a little bit of attention, and the answer to that might be one