Jim Gaffigan | You're Attacking My Grandpa? | Think Again Podcast

Hey there! I'm Jason Goss, and you're listening to Think Again, a Big Fink podcast. Since 2008, the Big Think has been sharing big ideas from some of the most creative thinkers around. On the Think Again podcast, we step outside of our comfort zone, surprising our guests and me, your host, with unexpected conversation starters from Big Think's interview archives—ideas that we didn't necessarily come here prepared to discuss.

Today, I'm very, very happy to be sitting here with Jim Gaffigan. He is a Grammy-nominated comedian and the New York Times bestselling author of "Dad Is Fat" and other books. He's about to launch the second season of his semi-fictitious TV show, "The Jim Gaffigan Show," which premieres with two episodes on Sunday, June 19th, on TV Land. Welcome to Think Again!

Jim Gaffigan: Thank you! Thanks for having me.

Jason Goss: I wanted to start off just kind of asking you about courage, right? Like a lot of people in the world seem to be—I'd say most people in most industries—seem to be walking around with various kinds of masks on, trying to protect themselves from looking stupid. In your work, you go to the land of totally grotesque, over-the-top, kind of all of the worst possible insecurities and reflections that the world might have on you. You put them out there and maybe exaggerate them as well. Do you feel that that makes you stronger over time? Does that help you deal with those demons? Is it free therapy? I mean, your work is hilariously funny, but I'm interested in your perspective on going out raw like that.

Jim Gaffigan: I think—well, I think there's one aspect of courage of that. It's not a decision where you embrace courage and then you're courageous. Like, I think I was courageous to try stand-up comedy, right? But there has to be numerous moments where I go, "All right, now I'm gonna be courageous and reveal this about myself."

That being said, I feel as though there are some times we attribute courageous behavior to a personality trait, right? So there are some people that are outspoken, and Donald Trump, yeah, we think they're courageous, right? So I feel like sometimes with comedy, people are like, "That's brave," and you're like, "Yeah, yeah, that person is being—maybe they're being brave or they're manipulating the zeitgeist that we exist in for their benefit in order to look brave and get a helping hand."

And so, I mean, they might not be consciously doing that, but I think that as a comedian, it should be—it's more important to be funny, right? Now, you probably need some bravery in going about being funny. I think that some of—like even silly funny, there takes a bravery. You look at Will Ferrell—there's a lot of bravery there.

Jason Goss: Yeah, yeah.

Jim Gaffigan: He's doing something that could fall on its face, but there's a bravery in that silliness that he does, right? And I think that's what we enjoy about it, 'cause it—I mean, I think it's, you know, your intention, obviously, is to be funny, which you are, but it also is empowering, I think, or freeing for other people to watch somebody go up there and talk directly about things that most people are afraid to admit that they even feel, you know?

Jason Goss: Right, yeah.

Jim Gaffigan: I think—well, it's also liberating because I think that we can't feel all these things all the time, right? Like the whole concept—like we're all gonna die, but we don't really want to think about it. But it is funny for someone like George Carlin to talk—like here’s this chunk on suicide, which is brilliant, but it's also—we don't want to think about it. We don't want to think about the fact that right now, someone is getting ready to kill themselves, which is a line from his material.

So, yeah, I think—but also, I personally think comedians get a lot of credit and criticism for what they would do anyway. So, otherwise, people might credit me for being a clean comedian, but you know it hasn't been necessary for us to curse in this portion of the podcast. No, we're gonna—I don't get—not gonna have to curse a lot. I don't get any credit for being—“He was—you know what? He's really good, and he was clean in the podcast.” You know, it's strange. Yeah, it's not like we live in such a cursing-filled world.

Jason Goss: Well, I mean, it is a weird thing. In common, and liquid just used to, for whatever reason. And my understanding is that, like, early in your career, like your producers or whatever were pressuring you to—guess you actually had to add cursing into the album? Is that right?

Jim Gaffigan: Like, yeah, yeah, they were like, "You know what? You might want to curse more, and it'll have a greater appeal with teenagers." Yeah, and so I was like, “Alright,” I added some curse words, but it wasn't—and on the other side, it's not as if I didn't have some curse words when I first started. But I mostly got rid of them because I didn't feel like it was that creative, right, to just say—yeah, I mean, like—and I'd have to remove it for an appearance on Conan or Letterman anyway. And then, I just realized, “Oh, I didn't even finish writing the joke.”

But then again, cursing for Chris Rock is incredibly authentic, so I wouldn't ask him to not—turn right. Hopefully, you're not sitting there, “Well, he had to curse.”

Jason Goss: One, yeah, it's like people really—I mean, oh, being from the Midwest and coming to New York. When I first got a job in advertising, right, I was shocked how much people were cursing. I was like, "Aren't we supposed to be creative here?" And people were like, "God damn!" Right? And you're like, "All right." So, but culturally, it's a different environment, you know? You live in a city—you know, I cursed in everyday life, but if I'm talking about fried chicken, it's not necessary to say, “This is good!”

Jim Gaffigan: Yeah, yeah. My mother's, you know, opinion on cursing was always kind of similar to what you're talking about in terms of, like, you can do better than that. You can come up with something more interesting. And like, as I've grown older, honestly, I just don't care. Like a lot of the hip-hop music I listen to—oh, yeah, they're cursing, and I'm not like, “Yeah, it's antic,” but I'm not like, “Why couldn't you come up with a—no, never!”

No, no, it's like, excuse me. Little John? Is it Little John or Lil Jon?

Jim Gaffigan: No, but I also feel—and it's interesting because it goes back to the bravery thing—having young children. Quick story on the cursing: Totally, my ten-year-old son was cursing, and I said to him, “Look, I don't care if you curse. I really don't. You can curse around me, but if you curse at school, you're gonna get in trouble. So don’t curse at school, but feel like you can curse around me.” And what happened is, all he did was curse around me. And then he would curse around me while other people were present. So it was just like, "All right, fine." Like, I tried, and other people are like, "What is wrong with Jim that he's bowing?"

Jason Goss: Yes, kid!

Jim Gaffigan: So it's like, it comes down to, like, you know, all right, fine. Just don't curse. Now I'm dealing with this as well. I have an eight-year-old son, and, you know, we listen to the soundtrack of Hamilton, the musical, and I'm like trying to turn the radio down at certain moments. And I just finally had a conversation. When he's a smart kid, he's a verbal kid, I finally was like, "Look, I don't really understand what it is about these words. Maybe ‘cause they're like on the cusp of violence or something, but we like regulate them, you know? They’re not okay everywhere, but I want you to be able to listen to some things that are good, the untrust that you're not gonna run out in the street and start cursing. Can I—we can do that?"

And he's like, "Yeah, yeah." But, we'll see. I mean, who knows? I may come back to bite me in the butt, but the bravery thing is—I mean, I don't know if you encounter this with your—'cause being around children and, you know, when you're like, when you've been on the planet for eight years, there's a lot more bravery that you have to engage in than when you're in your 30s or 40s.

Jason Goss: Oh, yeah! Just getting on the school bus! I mean, there's a lot of brave—you have to sit there and go, "I'm the brand new experience here." So encouraging my children to be brave has really—you know? To not be a hypocrite, I have to be brave, right? So the parenting thing is weird. It's very strange.

I imagine—I mean, I have another thing that people always bring up about you, of course, is that you have a lot of kids. You have five?

Jim Gaffigan: Now I have five.

Jason Goss: And you talk about it in your routines, and to judge by your stand-up, it's like your home life is this constant, like beleaguered state of exhaustion sort of thing. But I'm sure that's not really it, but it's like there's way more people that have five kids than make a living going on stage, give me any approval of strangers. So being a parent of five, you know, it's chaos, but because it is chaos, it's a chaos that enriches your life. But I think it's impossible to articulate the benefits without it sounding like you're trying to sell some pyramids lifestyle or something, you know?

Jim Gaffigan: I mean, like, it's great! I don't get sleep. It's great! I'm changing diapers at 5:40! So the strange, you know, like the parenting thing.

Yeah, so we should let the audience—yeah, like you guys, if you want to have five kids, feel free! But you're not—Jim is not absolutizing here.

Jim Gaffigan: No, not wired to do that!

Jason Goss: No, it's very sick!

Another five kids. And the clean comedy, yeah! They keep coming up. It's like, people are like, "Five kids? Click Maddie? Are you or a nominee for the Republican Party?" You know? And it's just like part of that. I—I want to say—

And you know you also joke, like, in your new series, there's stuff about kind of a sense of alienation of the Midwestern culture in New York and like people being like, "You're from—no one knows where you're Wisconsin or—"

Jim Gaffigan: Yeah, and but, you know, I also didn't realize I was Midwestern until I got here. Like when I was growing up, I was like, "This, there's been some misunderstanding. I'm not supposed to be going to parties in high school sitting on bales of hay!"

I mean, I didn't do every night. That happened—it was actual hay! There was a night in high school where I was sitting on a bale of hay! That's like we're actually at a party in Indiana where we're sitting on a bale of hay!

And there was actually—and, you know, I went to parties in trailer parks, which seemed foreign to New Yorkers, but it wasn't—it wasn't dad odd.

Jason Goss: Yeah, well, I think that's the really interesting thing is that, like, these external aspects of our culture or whatever that, like, seem so shocking or alienating or surprising can end up being the only three things that people keep talking about. They matter, but they don't matter, you know?

Jim Gaffigan: They don’t, yeah! It’s content, right?

Jason Goss: Right! It's similar—it goes back to the—you know, comedians just want to be known as funny people. They can add female by male; they can add African-American—all these things. But in the end, it's funny, funny, or not funny! People are not going to a theater to watch me do stand-up because I'm not cursing. They're not going because I'm not cursing, right? They're going because it's funny. Hopefully, it is funny, and that's why you're there with the other folks, you know? Yeah, Louie CK and, you know, you're one of those guys, you know? Well, and—

And Gaus! So I think now let's get to the second part of the show where you and I are in the same boat! We're going to watch three surprise interview clips on any possible—so this is just about me talking out my ass!

Jim Gaffigan: This is exactly what it is.

Jason Goss: Okay, yep, right? Okay!

This is Sean Wilentz, who's an American historian, and he's talking about Donald Trump's crisis presidency.

Sean Wilentz: Would the GOP suspend the Constitution? Every time you get one of these movements—and they've been. Again, they've occurred before in American history. There's always an argument that somehow somebody has taken America away from Americans, and we're gonna try to bring it back, take it back from them and restore what was—that happened with the Federalists in 1800.

Of that, the naturalize, unnaturalize immigrants that happened in the 1850s with Irish and German Catholic immigrants. And it's happening now. Something terrible has been taken away, and they're trying to bring it back. It's appealing to people's fears. They're appealing to people's sense that they are no longer—they don't overcount.

But we've seen that before as well. I mean, this isn’t—there's nothing new about any of this. Interestingly, it’s usually a sign, or it's a witness of a political party that's about to crack up. And that certainly happened in 1800. It happened in the 1850s, in 1920s and ‘30s. The old guard in the Republican Party that brought back the economics that led to the Great Depression —they too were being buoyed up by a resurgence of nativism, which led to a law in 1924 that grossly restricted immigration from abroad.

In all three cases, the parties either collapsed entirely, or they were marginalized. The Republicans didn't elect a president from Franklin Delano Roosevelt coming in in 1932 until thirty years later. The president they elected in 1952, Dwight Eisenhower, basically ratified a New Deal consensus.

So this greater "Make America Great Again" usually means that a party's about to get—get under, you know, fall under great pressure. It's gonna, if not collapse and tardily, it's going to disintegrate or be pushed to the margins.

Jason Goss: There's something, you know, I have a couple things on Trump. One is, I tend to be nervous about the groupthink of people that don't like Trump, which—that is a refreshing and novel opinion, I have not heard. Yes, that I don't like Trump.

Jim Gaffigan: Mm-hmm.

Jason Goss: But I get worried that we are—instead of explaining to people that like Trump what's wrong with it, right, we'd rather be right, and we’d rather say, “You're an idiot.” Yeah!

Which is what I think happened when John Kerry ran against George Bush. People with different opinions are very valid, and what we see is so apparent about Trump.

Jim Gaffigan: All right, we're being dismissive to the fact that there's things appealing about Trump, right? So someone that does support Trump—like, I work on this show that I want everyone to watch, but yes, “The Jim Gaffigan Show,” second season starting soon. It is really funny, and you've seen it!

Jason Goss: I have seen it, and I can't say anything, but—

Jim Gaffigan: But the thing is, is that of the cast and crew, no one admitted to voting or being interested in Trump. No one admitted to it, but someone must be, of course!

Jason Goss: Yeah, of course! You know? And so therefore, it makes me think that there's an absence of dialogue surrounding this—so yeah, this mentality, this mob mentality.

Jim Gaffigan: Sure! I'm just saying you're an idiot, you're wrong!

And your ear—and validated! Yeah, that's pretty universal to humans if they're not really careful about it, because we are sort of pack animals, and we want to make sure that we're cool and yeah, everything's fine, and these are, this is my tribe. And you know, if the others come, we can win, you know, or whatever, right?

Jason Goss: But I totally agree with you that it is dangerous entirely to dismiss people entirely. And I feel like that is what leads to— I mean, also doing things like carpet bombing the Middle East! But that is one thing that leads to radicalization, and you know, dismissing people and their worldviews entirely is one thing that leads to people becoming increasingly radicalized to the point where they're like, “Oh, yeah, I’m an idiot. Screw you!”

Jim Gaffigan: Like, right, you know? It's like, by the way, those people—like in, I believe it was San Jose—that were attacking those Trump supporters? I watched that and I was like, "Oh my gosh! Don't you realize that people that were on the fence are now for Trump because of that?" Right? Because people were attacking these people for having a different opinion!

Jason Goss: I mean look! Fox News, MSNBC, you know, they're two different sides of the same coin!

Jim Gaffigan: But, by the way, I enjoy news. I enjoy opinions. I enjoy Chris Matthews. I enjoy Greta Van Susteren. I enjoy it! But I also think that it's pretty impossible for a human being to deliver the news completely without opinion.

Jason Goss: I think the Internet has also made us start to question the value of that pose of objectivity. I mean, that is to say there has to be a spectrum.

Jim Gaffigan: I mean, you know, everyone shouldn't be ranting on—

Jason Goss: Oh, yeah, we—the other all the time!

Jim Gaffigan: But more transparency about where people—and organizations! And by the way, I think that—I get worried that it's so fragmented that people only watch MSNBC. People only watch Fox! People only read Drudge! People only listen to NPR! Which is—everyone's right! But the problem is, is that then you turn on BBC news and you're like, “What?” So it's—I mean this is—it is commerce!

Jason Goss: Right! And different opinions are really important! So my other note on Trump, which no one wants to—it is that when we all watched his acceptance speeches as entertainment, right, there were plenty of times that we kind of nodded along, and we don't want to admit that!

Jim Gaffigan: And it's not the hateful stuff, but the cheerleading high school football coach that makes Trump appealing is appealing! He's really good at that! Like, "If you're my bro, then I'll go the mile for you! You know, we’re together, like we’re great!"

And there's also this game of telephone that occurs in the conversation about Trump. Calling him a racist, all he has to do is speak and not be racist, and it discredits that argument! Right?

It's like putting labels on someone that you disagree with. I mean, I don't want to say that it's hyperbolic, but it's like saying that he's unqualified to be president is different than saying he's a monster!

Jason Goss: Sure! If you say he's a monster and people watch him, and he's not a monster, it discredits your argument!

Jim Gaffigan: And so I also think that discrediting these people that do support him—look, I'm from Indiana. I live in Manhattan. I've auditioned for shows in L.A. that portray the Midwest and small-town America in an insulting way!

Jason Goss: Yeah—so I understand the mentality of the anti-elitism! I understand it! I understand that, you know, people saying that people that believe in God are idiots—I find that hurtful! Even if someone doesn't go to church, their grandpa does, right? So you’re attacking my grandpa! That's right!

So then I'm not on your team, dear!

Jim Gaffigan: I mean, yeah. No! I want to go—I want to go there for a second! Like, I, 'cause—yeah, 'cause my grandmother, my mom's mother was religious. They were Italian Roman Catholic, my mom religious and my dad's side, atheists, humanists, Jews!

But my grandmother, my mom's mother, I would have long conversations with her about her beliefs, and but I realized in myself that over time since then, you know, having lived in New York all these years, I've grown more and more—I mean, I don't think I'd be coming out on social media saying disparaging and stupid things about the Midwest, but I've become more and more alienated from the idea of religious people!

And what you said is a—it’s kind of a wake-up call to think about—you know, I mean it's a form of bigotry, right?

Jim Gaffigan: Right!

Jason Goss: And we all have different shades of it. Like, you know, yeah, we all have sexism too! It's like we can be the most liberal guy, and there's still sexist thoughts there! I mean, it's like we don't have it figured out.

Jim Gaffigan: I think we should hear someone out. Do you know? The people that support Trump are not idiots! They're not! I mean, some of them may be, but—

Jason Goss: But wait, what is an idiot?

Jim Gaffigan: Well, that's one—it, yeah, right!

Jason Goss: Right! Right! What is an idiot? So no, that's a very nice—I was joking, but you're—but from our view, boy—you know, being New Yorkers and probably, I don't know if you grew up in New York, but like, D.C. V.R.C. but East Coast! But, you know, I've been in New York for 25 years. Trump has been in newspapers for 25 years. Yeah, part of what I understand of America—the business mentality—Trump makes all the sense in the world!

Jim Gaffigan: Sure! Do you—I mean, it's like, yeah, yeah!

Jason Goss: I mean, no, I know there's fewer times articles that are like, “By the way, he's not right!” Right?

Jim Gaffigan: But yeah! I know what I'm saying is, facts or perception aside, it has to be a dialogue because it's like we're constantly being manipulated to buy serial or support this or that!

I just think that like, you know, the Trump Elizabeth Warren Twitter war is like—I mean, I admire part of it, but I also think, is that productive? And by the way, I also sit there and then I question that, and I go, "Maybe we need to do every resource in the world and maybe she’s doing the best service," but I also feel like I don't know if the Twitter dialogue is the platform.

Jim Gaffigan: I mean, by the way—can I also bring up?

Jason Goss: So of course you can!

Jim Gaffigan: Yeah, so this is—I have five young children. Well, my oldest is 12. They hate Trump! They hate him!

Jason Goss: No point—anything you've said that, guys, not from anything I've said!

Jim Gaffigan: Yeah, but you know, they've had discussions, you know, during the primaries—like, “Are we Bernie people, or are we Hillary people?” And I'd have a discussion with them about it, and it’s interesting as a parent to see where did they get that? Where did they get that?

Some of it is seeing vines where people are making fun of Trump too, okay?

Jason Goss: But—and it makes me nervous because it's just like there's this impressionable side, and then there is this human resistance to being told what to do! So it's like, when I was a kid, Sylvester Stallone was the biggest thing in the world, and then collectively we decided that we didn't like him! And that happened with Anne Hathaway for no reason at all. People just decided, "Hey everyone, we're done. She's not cool anymore!" For no reason at all!

Jim Gaffigan: I don't know, maybe there was some reason, but it's just so—like, the group mentality that I see my children, who are very bright, and you know, they know that Trump wants to build a wall, and that's why I said disparaging things about immigrants and stuff like that, but like, it makes me—it just worries me how impressionable we are!

Jason Goss: I know! I know! It was a trip for me when I realized, you know, at some point in high school that like, the alienated all-black clothing goth look that I had cultivated was actually totally conformist!

Jim Gaffigan: Yeah!

Jason Goss: Within my alienated subculture, you know, which I thought was so radical and fighting the man, and whatever!

Jim Gaffigan: Well, here's the—it's like, you know, I'm this kind of everyman, right? And sure, my outfit in doing stand-up, I wanted to be very plain, not have a draw any attention. I had friends that were dressing like rock stars. I had friends that were embracing the latest trends. I was always jeans and a shirt, and I gave myself credit for not doing anything but that. In not choosing, I was making a choice!

Jason Goss: That's a look!

Jim Gaffigan: Yeah! I mean, yeah!

Jason Goss: It's like you can’t—you are participating by not participating! Right?

Jim Gaffigan: Yeah!

Jason Goss: Now they call it normcore! Whatever! It's just like you can't dodge it!

Jim Gaffigan: Yeah! So—I don’t know, but at least we can be maybe aware of it!

Jason Goss: Yeah! Or try! Right?

Jim Gaffigan: Yeah!

Jason Goss: Okay, so let's see what the next one—yeah, we have a cool—we got pretty deep into that one. This is Dan Pontefract, future of work envisioner, and it is called "Forget Work-Life Balance: Achieve Work-Life Integration by Finding Purpose."

Dan Pontefract: Well, that's interesting, especially since your work integrates our life.

Jason Goss: Okay, cool, let's see.

Famous Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard once wrote: "To be that self which one truly is," is something to first think about when you're trying to figure out your own personal purpose.

So the three questions I want you to think about are as follows: What are you about? The second one is, who am I? Who am I trying to be? And then the last question is, how? How am I going to show up each and every day in this life of mine?

Once you begin defining, deciding, and developing your "what," your "who," and your "how," at the end of the day, that's going to create a pathway to purpose. Purpose is not given to you. Purpose is defined and decided and developed by you.

Now, ostensibly, we all have to work somewhere, and so what you’re trying to do is to match as best possible that defined sense of self with an organization that ideally has as close a match to that defined sense of self.

So you're looking for an organization that also has defined itself, and ultimately, both you and the organization are then in the sweet spot.

Jason Goss: What I enjoyed about what that guy—Dan Pontefract, yeah—what I enjoyed what he said, which is something that informs me as a father and also as, you know, a comedian and a human being, is I have such gratitude for the fact that what I do for a living is something I enjoy.

So it's interesting—I thought that video was gonna be more about like love what you do. But I have such gratitude for having the occupation that I like, right? And having a clarity of the point of view of not only my comedy but what kind of ideas are presenting.

Jim Gaffigan: Right.

Jason Goss: Right?

Which leads to this other thing, which is—it's an imperfect idea, but as a comedian, again, I believe people do what they want. There's no incredible calculation in stand-up comedy. But there is something about bringing light to the world versus bringing darkness—short meaning we all have friends and we all have times where we moan or we have a friend who's very—mean—and is mean, and we laugh, but afterwards there's a bit of a hangover associated with it.

Yeah, there's an ickiness! Yeah! Now, when you bring light in a creative endeavor, it becomes evergreen.

So in other words, complaining about something is never as potent as an observation which is universal to the human experience, right?

Jim Gaffigan: Right! Of course! And to put a asterisk to that, I mean, you know, in the case of, say, Woody Allen's early stand-up, he could complain but in such a precise and observational way that it did become—and by the right, Richard Pryor was very much doing that, right?

Jason Goss: It's why—but the thing is, is that it's also a different thing. But topical comedy say a monologue joke versus like a Mitch Hedberg joke, right? Mitch Hedberg jokes are gonna be around in 20 years, whereas we don't remember Letterman or Leno's monologue jokes, right?

Jim Gaffigan: And so the insight of an observational joke or something about the human experience or Richard Pryor revealing aspects of his insecurities is bringing light. Does that make sense?

Jason Goss: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense! And so that's, you know, when he talks about purpose, it's something that I remember—I had this, this is back when I had like a VHS of a tape, and I gave it to someone of my stand-up 20 years ago, and the guy said, “It's funny, but it's a little mean. It's mean, models.”

Jim Gaffigan: Interesting!

Jason Goss: And it was me too models!

Jim Gaffigan: You were taking kind of like an easy road, like—

Jason Goss: Yes! I mean, at that—it’s similar to how you might look at jokes that were funny and in the '90s and be like, "Wow, that's pretty mean to midgets. That's mean to this person, or whatever! Why would they do that?"

Jim Gaffigan: Yeah, you know, like put-down humor is the easiest, most accessible thing, but it's very base! It's very simple!

Yeah, and by the way, there can become robbery with it—you with your friends, you give each other a very fun—

Jason Goss: Right! But it’s almost kind of a sarcastic take on insults!

Jim Gaffigan: Oh, yeah, right, exactly!

Jason Goss: There’s some meta-awareness! Right, you guys are all screwed! It’s like we’re all friends here, and I’m making fun of you for this, but me identifying that I have knowledge of you, and I know that you know that I’m making fun of it, and that you're gonna take it well and not be better and so on.

Yeah, and so the reason I bring up those jokes where I was making in front of the model—and it doesn’t have to be perfect—is that he was right! He was right! I was bagging on models!

And I call it kind of us and them, which is not different from a Polish joke! It goes back, you know—

Jason Goss: As you were talking, I was thinking that like the bringing of lighting—because it's a subtle thing. It's not always obvious unless you sort of know what you're looking to feel from it.

Like, you know, 'cause for example, there were plenty of people in America who freaked out when "The Simpsons" came out, like, "Oh my god! It's destroying American values! Blah blah blah!"

But the fact is that "The Simpsons" was nothing but love for humanity as a—in general!

And I think that that's—you know, also going back to what we were saying earlier, to bring this full circle before we kind of close it up—to having a dialogue with people who think differently from you, like about Trump, bringing light into the world is about having some sense of the bigger picture and belonging to it as a breadth to try.

I think even even when we shoot, you know, like Seinfeld's show—like that they were like the only rule is no hugs, right? Because that’s just like a clumsy theatrical device—people hug, you know?

Jim Gaffigan: Right! I get it!

Jason Goss: But that being said, when Jeannie and I do our show, and actually our DP Neil's Alpert, who is great, we have these conversations of where is the love in this moment or in this scene or in this episode?

Because as human beings, even someone you have a contentious relationship with, right, there is something there! Like my character and Michael Ian Black's character, right? Very much. There is—

Jim Gaffigan: But they love each other!

Jason Goss: Because of the sarcastic barbs, right, that they throw at each other!

Jim Gaffigan: It’s very holding them together there!

Jason Goss: But I think that's a very important element—things that you—

That we like the show "Seinfeld" or "The Simpsons," the reason we like that is—and even on "The Family," they're in the element—there is this, you know, meathead and Archie Bunker.

There is an affection there! And there's a patience behind that, which spoke volumes to that generation, right?

Yeah, which is what family can do, right? Because nobody is saying—I mean, unless somebody says screw you forever, moves out—like nobody's saying that!

Jim Gaffigan: And which is the Irish way!

Jason Goss: Yeah! Like in "All in the Family," you're trapped! You know, like you're drunk, you're there, so you gotta deal with these—which is, you know, it's just an exaggerated example of what happens in every family, right?

Jim Gaffigan: Right, right!

Jason Goss: Which potentially ideally is a microcosm of understanding as ultimately as opposed to misunderstanding, right?

Jim Gaffigan: Now, right, as long as nobody says if we get you forever!

Jason Goss: All right! Right?

Jim Gaffigan: Which is, by the way, in some ways, even saying that to someone is expressing that they're important to you, right?

Jason Goss: Yeah, I mean, well, sadly, if you want to be a real jerk, don't leave!

Jim Gaffigan: Right? I mean that's what the pathological side of my brain where I'm on!

Jason Goss: You know, you want to make a statement—just—

Jim Gaffigan: I mean, that’ll look good, like a joke. And my friend Tom Schiller has this joke where it's like Italians will argue and make up like five times a meal, and the Irish Catholics will like carry a simple grudge to a funeral.

Jason Goss: Right!

Jim Gaffigan: They're like, "I’ll forgive you at the funeral!" You know? So, Jim Gaffigan, this has been great!

Jim Gaffigan: Thank you!

Jason Goss: Thank you for spending—thank you, and Think Again. I've really enjoyed our conversation!

And that's it for this week's episode of Think Again! Next week, it's Fourth of July weekend; I hope you all have exciting plans that don't involve sitting in traffic for very long. We have a really great episode coming up on Saturday, but you can, of course, wait until Monday or Tuesday to listen if you're having a great time with your family.

It's Sean Wilentz, he's a Princeton historian, the author of a new book about partisanship in America, which apparently has been with us forever, and he argues that it's actually good for the American people, which is definitely an interesting perspective! It's a really, really good conversation!

Sean is also the official historian of Bob Dylan for his website. For Chicago fans of the show, or anyone near Chicago, I want to let you know on July 6th, I'll be giving a free talk at Podcast Movement, which is a podcasting conference. It's a PMX talk, which is billed as a TED-like talk for the podcasting community.

I'm going to be talking about my experience in developing the show and learning to work with and talk with all of these fascinating guests. It's gonna be at around 11:25 a.m. on Wednesday, July 6. I hope to see you then! Check out Podcast Movement PMX talks on Google!