Khan Academy Ed Talk with Nicholas Ferroni

Hello and welcome to Ed Talks with Khan Academy! Thank you for joining us today. I'm Kristen Decervo, the Chief Learning Officer at Khan Academy, and I'm excited today to talk with Nick Ferroni, who's going to talk about what it would look like if we really appreciated teachers. I'm excited to get on with that!

Before we get started, a couple reminders. First, at Khan Academy, we are a non-profit, and we rely on donations from folks like you to keep doing the work we are. If you go to khanacademy.org/donate, you will find a place where you can easily contribute and help us continue to work towards our mission. Second, we want to thank some of the supporters who have helped us address the COVID-19 crisis, including AT&T, General Motors, and Fastly. And finally, if you are interested in listening to this discussion or any other discussions that I've had or Sal has had with some of our homeroom and Ed talking guests, you can go to "Homeroom with Sal" at wherever you get your podcasts and hear audio versions of these chats.

So with that, let me welcome Mr. Nick Ferroni. Nick, thanks for joining us today!

Nick: Thank you so much for having me, Chris! I'm just finishing my school day currently.

Kristen: Yes, so let me tell folks a little bit about you. You are a high school teacher who teaches math and cultural studies and mentor a diverse group of students, including founding your school's GSA (Gay Straight Alliance) and feminist club. And I'll brag on you a little bit—Nick was named one of 100 Making a Difference for his commitment to education reform and has also recently been named the Upstander of the Year by the Human Rights Campaign! I like that title—Upstander of the Year—for your advocacy and support of LGBTQ youth. So welcome, and it is a pleasure to talk to you today!

Nick: Well, thank you so much! History and culture studies are definitely my expertise, but thank you! Thank you so much for having me. It's so great to be here! I've been looking forward to this.

Kristen: Great! So, I like to start by asking people about their career path. Did you always want to be a teacher? How did you come to be where you are today?

Nick: Wow, that is such an interesting question! I always joke around and say, as a kid, I wanted to be a superhero, a philosopher, philanthropist, a comedian, an actor, and an adventurer. So I became a teacher! You know, it’s just there you go—we're all encompassing one. I had amazing educators growing up. Teaching was not my major focus. I always kind of thought I wanted to be a mentor, a coach in that field. I went to Rutgers to play football and I majored in history. At that point, that's kind of why I started to realize maybe education and history was kind of what I would want to pursue. Indiana Jones was probably one of my biggest influences. I'm like, if I can do that—if I could go on adventures on the weekends and be a professor!

But it's after college, ironically enough, I ended up acting. I was actually waiting for a teaching job to open up at my old high school, which I've been teaching at my alma mater now for 19 years, which is such an interesting experience in itself. But I was waiting for a teaching job. My cousin's a big agent, so she was like, "Let me send you on some castings and make you some money while you're waiting to teach." I ended up booking a few jobs. I ended up on a soap opera, and I started to do that while I was subbing in my school. So, I ended up working more and more. I mean, I wasn't a big-time player; I was a 10-and-under, which meant I had a few lines every so often. Eventually, they had me on more and more, and I was getting more opportunities. And then a teaching job opened up at my old high school, so I had to pick between pursuing something that I wasn't really passionate about and I wasn't trained in, I didn't think I would ever be good at. I definitely had imposter syndrome—or become a high school teacher.

The irony being, I went from putting on one show a day to six shows a day to an audience that does not want to be there! I will say this with absolute certainty: every great teacher could be a great actor, but not all great actors could be great teachers because our job is so performative, and it's so about engagement. But I'm now finding myself in my 19th year teaching at my alma mater. It's the greatest job in the world! If teaching was my only job, it would be the easiest job in the world, but there are so many other facets. And so that's how I'm back here now at Union High School.

Kristen: I love that acting is the thing you do until a teaching job opens up! That's a great way to think about the potential hierarchy of careers that we think about. So, you said you had some great teachers, and it's Teacher Appreciation Week, which we'll talk some more about. But given that, do you have a teacher or two that you'd like to specifically point to as influential for you?

Nick: God, I luckily was very fortunate to have so many! I mean, my history teachers growing up just made me passionate about history. You know, passionate people make you passionate. But I would say whenever I talk about anything, I always talk about Mrs. Martino, my kindergarten teacher, and she, to me, was the epitome of educators. I came from a very Catholic upbringing, so being left-handed, my Italian grandmother was not very happy about that. She would constantly try to force me to be right-handed, and obviously, as a kid, that's kind of traumatic because you feel like something's wrong with you. And then Mrs. Martino was the one who got me to embrace being left-handed. She would read me books about left-handed people. And the irony being, I always tell these stories whenever I do any press. I do a lot of press for obviously in reference to being an educator and to advocate for teachers. I always tell the stories about how Mrs. Martino, I would have the toughest days of my life as a student coming in, and she would always nurture me and read to me. And then one day, in particular, I always say how I was having such a rough day because my grandmother, again, was forcing this kind of on me—to be right-handed because left hand was 'sinister' in her mindset. She brought me over to the toy box and she said, "You know, I want you to pick your favorite toy." And of course, being a kindergarten student, I reached in and grabbed the He-Man action figure. She let me keep it! It was the greatest moment of my life.

So I always tell the story on how teachers are so good at knowing what their students need emotionally. The irony being, Mrs. Martino and I have kept in touch on social media, on Facebook. So whenever I do a story, Kristen, I'll always send her a link to it. I didn't see her since I was her student, so I always send her the links and I always get the same response: "You know, I'm so proud of you. I love you so much! Say hi to your mom." And finally, I did the Today Show, and I told the story about how my kindergarten teacher, Mrs. Martino, let me keep this He-Man action figure! It was such a simple act, but it meant so much to me. And she replied back to me, “I love you so much! I'm so proud of you. It means so much that you think so much of me.” But I have to be honest with you, so you'll know where this story is going—because in the history of histories, I don't think a woman has ever told a man in any situation that she has to be honest with them, and something good has come out of it. I don't think you've ever sat down your husband, or spouse, or partner and said, "We need to talk," and it'd be something positive!

So I messaged her back and I was like, "Is everything okay?" Of course, I made it about her, and she's like, "Why? I need to be honest with you. I just—I want to clear something up." And I am who I am because of the confidence that this woman built when I was a young child. My mom's amazing, but Mrs. Martino just added that confidence and that empowerment! My thought was, is she going to tell me that I wasn't a talented kid? And I was annoying? And I shocked her? Oh my! Like, "Nick, I have to be honest! Like, you really blew me away! I thought you turned out to be enough." You know, I was waiting for that response. My heart's beating 100 miles an hour because the woman who I am because of is going to crush me at any moment! So she's typing, and again, I'm in my 30s when this is happening, so my kindergarten teacher is going to destroy a 30-year-old man's ego in a heartbeat! And finally, her comment comes up, and she's like, “You know, Nicholas, I love you so much! I'm so proud of you, but you keep telling people I was your kindergarten teacher. I was your preschool teacher! And you keep saying it was the He-Man action figure, and it was a Fonzie doll!" And of course, I go back and I text my mom, "Like, mom, do you remember the toy that Miss Martino let me keep?" And she's like, "What? That weird little Fonzie action figure?" I was like, "It was a Fonzie doll!"

So to me, 30 years later, this woman remembered the moment, the day, even the toy. I felt the only logical response was to surprise her, and go see her. So that is a picture of me surprising Mrs. Martino 30 years later. She opened the door, she started crying, I started crying! It was pretty intense. The other thing I want to point out to elementary school teachers— you are the most patient people on the planet because you have to wait 30 years to find out if you did a good job! You know, I get immediate gratification being a high school teacher. But yes, please don’t wait 30 years to thank your elementary school teachers on how amazing they were. But it’s like, that’s one of the moments, and it was just such an amazing moment for me because, you know, it’s Teacher Appreciation Week. It’s never too early to thank a teacher who impacted your life, but it can be too late! So I always encourage people to not wait for that moment to take advantage of it. But yeah, Mrs. Martino, to me, is who I try to be as an educator—every student walked in the classroom feeling loved. And she would always tell me, you know, and she’d always say, “They will forget what you teach them, but they will never forget how you made them feel when they were in your classroom— in your presence.” And that’s something as a teacher has become my mantra.

That was my takeaway, part of my one of my takeaways from that too, was you didn’t remember the detail. You actually didn’t even remember which grade she taught, but you remembered the way she made you feel. And I also might have said— as example, I might have also suppressed the fact it was a Fonzie doll! He-Man’s a lot cooler! Like, even that fact, that detail— the fact that she remembered? But yeah, it's like, she remembered those moments, and it’s—and I didn’t, but it’s like, I just remembered how loved and how much I felt!

Kristen: Yeah, and the confidence that it gave you! That she gave me too, yeah. Absolutely! That’s it. I love it! Love the fantastic story! I'm going to have key in on one other piece you mentioned was reading books that made you feel like you were seeing yourself in the book too, which is another thing that I feel is so important for folks to be able to see themselves and get that from books. I feel like is such a gift.

Nick: Well, children’s books! I mean, I don’t think people realize the impact they have—not only on the— not only for children to see themselves but for other children to see other children and to see different groups and see diversity! And it’s like—I mean, and she was so incredible, way before our time, like way before the inclusive nature we live in. She read books on every group—everything! Children with disabilities, different races. And it was such a powerful lesson. It’s like, I mean, I am the person I am because of the empathy and compassion and understanding that was instilled on me at that time! And I think that’s why it’s so important that educators are supporting that of providing inclusive books. And there are so many amazing children’s books out there, which everyone has seen. And the sad reality is I can imagine that there may be some classrooms where there are students who don’t feel seen because they don’t have access to those short books or hear those stories.

Kristen: Yeah, yeah! So that was a great tribute to your teacher. Let’s get into this idea of Teacher Appreciation Week. You've been very vocal that there shouldn’t even be a Teacher Appreciation Week! Tell us why you feel that way and what your stance is.

Nick: I mean, I think everyone should be appreciated! I mean, we shouldn’t have Mother’s Day! You know, you shouldn’t need a day to appreciate mothers! But we do! We need that reminder! And then I go back to annoying my mom the 364 days of the year! Teacher—when it comes to professions, and people have said it for a long time, if you have an appreciation week, you’re probably not being appreciated! And it’s kind of that, that celebration. Or, everyone likes to be appreciated on a larger scale. When it comes to Teacher Appreciation Week, I’ll be honest, I used to be—part of my language, but I used to be that toxic positive person where you always have to be positive, regardless! You can’t address any negatives. You can’t show any vulnerability! It always has to be a positive, positive focus about definitely as an educator! At the same times, you can still be positive and be understanding and empathetic and also try to push for change.

And when it comes to Teacher Appreciation Week, it’s such an interesting thing because it made me reevaluate my whole profession. It also made me reevaluate if teachers are really appreciated, which kind of, I'll be honest— when I was thinking of ways to amplify teacher stories and teacher concerns this year, one of my thoughts was maybe we should do an anti-teacher appreciation week campaign! Where it’s get rid of Teacher Appreciation Week for other things! And obviously, I kind of drifted away from that because it’s still—it’s still a nice gesture! And it’s still nice to be recognized. Then I kind of came up with the thought of maybe we should just allow an open-ended question of Teacher Appreciation Week is great, but what if we really appreciate teachers? If we appreciated teachers, what do we need to change? And not that we’re not appreciated, but at the same time, what do we want to change within the system, within our professions so that kind of led me to push a little campaign where I wanted people to share—not only teachers, but anybody who's supportive of public schools, and education in general—to just share what they feel needs to change for teachers to truly be appreciated.

Kristen: So tell us about that, this hashtag, “If we appreciated teachers!” What is that? What does it become?

Nick: It’s to me, it’s awareness. Obviously, tweets and posts and hashtags don’t change society, don’t change culture! But I always feel like as a history teacher, I’ve always found that change doesn’t happen without awareness. Until you bring awareness to things—it’s even as a person, like when I realized, became aware of certain things, it made me more active to help change the things that I can change. And something as simple as “If we hashtag ‘if we appreciated teachers’” was just an opportunity to give educators and everyone a point to share what they feel needs to be changed—not only so that teachers feel appreciated but so that we could be better teachers for our students, we could be better partners for our spouses! We could have certain resources and certain needs met so we don’t continue down this—I hate to say it, but this possible struggle of a teacher attrition that will leave schools without enough educators to make sure that every student has a teacher in front of them. So, I reached out to as many people as I could, as many educators. And there was great feedback and great responses and just great thoughts and some of them I never thought about.

Because again, you know, being a man, I did not think about—I’m aware of paid maternity, but I never thought about how much it affects the teacher profession because we are a profession predominantly of women! So it was great to see everyone's responses. It was hopefully useful and in the way of making people more aware of what we’re concerned about that when we go on social media, we’re not complaining. You know, me confiding about the stresses of my job is not complaining about my job. It’s wanting to be a better person so I could be better resourced and a better teacher for my students. Teachers, when you help teachers, you help students! It is not either/or. You don’t support students and then not support teachers, or if you support teachers, you don’t support students! We are intertwined. So I just wanted to do something like this to help bring more awareness to the concerns—not only in America, but just globally and internationally—because there are a lot of common concerns that teachers are struggling with. And I just want to fix it before we lose so many amazing educators, which I’m afraid might happen.

Kristen: So we saw on the screen there some of the responses that teachers and all sorts of folks were posting. Do you have your own list? What would your list be if we really appreciated teachers?

Nick: I mean, my list is always probably the most simplistic list. It’s always called the core needs that I’ve—I’m in my 19th year as a teacher. There’s not a single year I haven’t worked an extra job. There were years I was working three jobs on top of teaching, on top of doing my main job! I, as I always say, teaching’s one of the most important careers that you have to work other careers in order to still do your first career! If you were about to get heart surgery and you found out your doctor was driving Uber for 12 hours before the heart surgery, you’d be a little suspicious or cautious or concerned! If you found out your airline pilot was again working in a Target or working in a factory right before they were about to fly the plane, you’d be concerned! I mean, I feel the same way about teachers! Like, we expect so much, and we give them with so little! So obviously, the fact that we don’t want to be millionaires— it’d be nice if we were! But just a livable wage where we can not only live but support a family if needed. That’s why we feel like most men go into administration because it pays better! As a man, I cannot support a wife and a child on my teaching salary, which is also another problem which exposes education—the fact there's—it’s predominantly a female profession that we don’t value the work of women as much as we do men! And so the idea of paying teachers a livable wage—you shouldn’t be working an extra job if you’re an educator, unless it was by choice! If you want to, that is fine! It shouldn’t be a necessity!

The fact that we buy our own supplies, and we beg for supplies online, to me, is still one of the most insane things! I love resources and sites that allow teachers to crowd-fund, but at the same time, we shouldn’t have to! If every teacher who was crowdfunding online was standing on a street begging for supplies, that would be national news every single day! So educators shouldn’t be expected to buy the resources that they’re not provided with! And we shouldn’t be expected to—and if we do spend our money, we should be fully protected. I’m sorry! The sensor light went out, which happens in a school, so I’m gonna move real quick! Sitting in one position for too long, I understand! I know! I know! I’m pretty animated! I’m Italian! My hand should be enough for the sensors to keep going! I’m married to Italian and inherited some of the African women, so I get it! These lights need to be a little more obvious on the censorship side! But when it comes to the resources, the fact that it’s expected of educators and the fact we do it—and people are like, “We should stop doing it,” but we could continue to do it but fight for the need so we don’t have to do it!

So—and even just something simple. I think the pandemic, we went from being celebrated to being heroes, then to being accused of just, “Go back to work! We need people to babysit.” You know, we weren’t valued! We aren't invested in! And it’s—I’ve never seen a profession so celebrated but so demonized or so undervalued at the same time! And I feel like with educators, we just want society to invest in us the same way we invest in our students. And that’s not asking for more! That’s just asking for enough! So I feel like those three things from a public opinion—the investment from the resources. Every classroom should be fully resourced! Every teacher should never have to come out of pocket! And every student should have teachers who have all the resources that they need, and then just for the fact that if I only had to work one job, I would be a better teacher than I am! And I give my all to teaching already! So I shouldn’t have—I again, it just, it breaks my heart to show shows, but my GrubHub driver of weeks ago, he’s wearing an NJEA shirt, which is our union in New Jersey! And I hesitate. I’m like, “Are you a teacher?” And he said, “Yeah, you know!” And he looked down, and we started talking! And I was like, “Do you want to do this?” He said, “No, I come right from school! I teach till 4, and then I come right here and do this!” for six. And he’s a new father! He has to do it! That should—people should be as angry about that as they should anything else! So just more support—you don’t have to have a child to support schools and education! I think education is the only investment that really benefits everybody outside of universal healthcare! Education is the next best investment that benefits everybody!

I’m sorry for that kind of emotional rollercoaster ride, but it’s just—yeah. It’s like my Uber driver, and like talking to him and just seeing that it’s like—it’s heartbreaking! And it’s—and he’s not the only one! Majority of a lot of teachers, a lot of teachers tend to work extra jobs just to supplement.

Kristen: Yeah. The other thing that I know from teachers that are in my family and that I know is that if they’re not working another job, they’re working their teaching job weekends and evenings and doing all that work! Is there a—how do you feel like we should address that piece where there’s so much on the teacher’s plates?

Nick: Well, anybody who says teachers only work days and have evenings and weekends and summers off doesn't know any teachers! And the running joke—somebody tweeted this—they’re like saying teachers only teach during school days or work during school days is like saying Tom Brady only works 15 Sundays a year! Because that’s when he actually works, as if he’s not working every other day preparing everything else! If we were paid by the hour, going back to being a millionaire, we would be millionaires! If we were paid by the actual hour of work we do! Because there’s so much! And the irony being, if I would never encourage a national strike, at the same time, part of me feels like if educators only did their contractual job, the education system would fall apart! If we didn’t do the beyond the extra hour work, the working on the weekends, we wouldn’t be able to do our job! But I feel like the education system would absolutely crumble! It is almost impossible to fulfill our duties as educators within our contractual hours! We’re expected to work outside of that, and if we don’t, nothing will get done! So we almost feel obligated to do it because, again, we don’t want to punish our students because we’re not allotted enough time to get papers, lesson planning, professional development done within the school day!

Kristen: So what is the solution for that? Is it that we need more teachers so that any individual teacher has less of a workload? Or what is the—how do we help fix this?

Nick: Well, I mean, it’s no teacher should have a class—especially elementary school—of over 15 or 20 students! I mean, the factors—kindergarten teachers with 30 or 40 absolutely blows my mind! I have high school students, classes of 30 as well! To me, it’s impossible to develop relationships with students when you have class sizes! I’m sorry, I’m recording!

Kristen: Yes, it's alright!

Nick: Thank you. All the interruptions! This is the perfect—I just need one announcement and one student to walk in with a late pass, even though there are no students, just to show you what happens on a regular school day is great! This is not planned! This is all life of a teacher!

Kristen: Totally understand!

Nick: You mentioned, you know, you should—we showed some of the things that other teachers have said, and also you shared your thoughts. Can people still participate in the campaign and share their thoughts about this?

Nick: Absolutely! We have a template, a blank template, hashtag “If we appreciated teachers”. And if you are a parent, if you’re an advocate, if you just—if everybody has a teacher in their family, just share! Fill in the blank! It’s an open-ended question—share what you feel needs to happen to truly let teachers know we appreciate that! And the templates—it’s very simple! It’s on my socials, I believe we’ll be sharing it on here as well. So if you’re watching this—

Kristen: Yeah, yes, it'll be in the chat for obviously this video, and all you gotta do is just make a copy, very simply insert what you think needs to happen for teachers to be appreciated, truly—to be appreciated! And then share it and use that hashtag! And let’s just keep awareness! This conversation can’t end after Teacher Appreciation Week, because obviously we’re still in the school year! We’ll be back to school next year! We can’t come out of these past two years without making some change for the better in education and for educators! So all I ask is take three minutes to think of what you need—think needs to happen! And share it! And just kind of join this little movement and help bring awareness to people who may not understand education or have connections to teachers!

Kristen: Great! We have a number of parents who often engage with us. What kinds of things can parents do both to support classroom teaching practices or in the ways they talk to their students?

Nick: Well, I would say—parents, my heart goes out to you as well because we are in this together! It is not parents versus teachers! We want to see your child succeed so much! We want to work with you! Which I hate when parents and teachers tend to get politicized and put against each other! But as parents, reach out to your child’s teachers—and as teachers, reach out to your students’ parents! And just find out what we can do to work with you! And as far as supporting your classroom, as a parent, find out how many students are in your child’s classes! Find out if the classes are fully resourced! If they’re not, show up to those board meetings! Run for school boards! Speak out in defense of the staff! Put pressure on school boards! I’d say, but if you put pressure on a school board, they will be more inclined because then they feel like the community is behind this message! So be very involved and understanding what’s going on in the classroom as far as if your child’s in a classroom of 35 students, I’d be concerned with that as a parent! I would think my child’s not getting the best education! I would then support hiring more teachers to make sure those class sizes can go down! So just work with teachers! Reach out to teachers! We are here for you! We want to do whatever we can from our end to not only support your mission but to help what you’re doing, but just also to set your child up to succeed!

Kristen: Fantastic! So we’ve talked a lot about how difficult and challenging the job of teaching is! What keeps you inspired? What keeps you doing this?

Nick: I mean, outside of all the interruptions and chaos and dysfunction, it’s—I had—we had Miss USA come by school on Monday to surprise our students and staff! And I always use my platform to get opportunities for my students. The photographer they hired to shoot me, Miss USA’s visit and videotape it was my former student who I had a SOP as a sophomore in class! My greatest moment as a teacher was helping him get his first published photo in a national magazine, which was of me! And as educators, it’s—teaching is—it’s—we enjoy nothing more than seeing our students go on to be successful and pursue what they love and to be, you know, to be happy, successful, empowered human beings! I would say a teacher is someone who dedicated their life to the success and happiness of other people’s children! But seeing my students thrive, interacting with them— even days when there’s battles! Every day is not rosy with students! They’re emotional beings! I’m an emotional being! There are days I don’t have my coffee, I’m a little more irritable than I would be on a normal day! You know, so it’s just those interactions! And I will say this with absolute certainty— I know 99.9% of teachers would agree with me: if a teacher ever leaves teaching— and a lot of them are—it is not because of the students! That is the only reason teachers will endure what we’re enduring and what we’ve been bearing for so long— is because we do it for our students! We have not become teachers for the salary, the fame, or the summers off, but the fact that—it’s interesting enough where for some of us, it’s our dream job! The fact that we have people leaving their dream job should tell a lot of people how unbearable some situations have become! But it’s—my students! It’s that interaction! They keep me inspired! I’m a better person! I would not be half the person I am today if not for having new groups of students every year who hold me to a higher standard, who better me! You know, it’s like that makes me a better person!

Kristen: Fantastic! It has been a pleasure to talk to you today! If folks want to hear more from you, or find out what else—what else are you up to coming up with? What do you have coming up?

Nick: You could follow me on my socials! Instagram and Twitter is @NicholasFerroni. I’m also collaborating with Kahoot! I’m hosting a little live game show for them every two weeks! Our first Kahoot game show is tomorrow, and it’s not only for teachers, it’s for teachers, students, game enthusiasts! Our first one is tomorrow at 3 p.m. Eastern time at Kahoot’s Instagram, so join us! It’ll be a lot of fun! But just feel free to message me, DM me, or reach out if there’s any way I could help, especially as educators! I love sharing the stories of amazing teachers, and I feel like not enough people hear those stories.

Kristen: Fantastic! Thanks so much for your time today! Thanks, everyone who joined us, and we will see you next time!

Nick: Thank you so much!