Homeroom with Sal & Jacquelline Fuller - Thursday, July 16

Hi everyone! Welcome to our homeroom livestream. South Khan here from Khan Academy. For those of you who are wondering what this is, this is just something we started up several months ago, especially when we all have to become socially distant, as a way of having interesting topics with interesting guests and also taking your questions.

I'm really excited about our guest today, Jacquelyn Fuller from Google.org. But before that, I would like to give a special shout-out to several organizations that stepped up when they realized that Khan Academy was already running at a deficit pre-COVID, and our costs only went up, whether it's server costs or we're trying to accelerate programs or add new content in response to school closures.

So special thanks to Google.org, Bank of America, AT&T, Fastly, and Novartis. I will say to all of you listening out there, as much as helped this has been from the support of these great organizations, we are still running at a deficit. And as we know, the school closure issue isn't going away, so we're trying to do what we can. But if you're not in a position to do so, please think about going to Khan Academy.org/donate. We only exist because of philanthropic donations from folks like yourself, so any level of donation makes a big deal. So please think about doing that.

So with that, I'm excited about introducing our guest, Jacqueline Fuller, president of Google.org. Jacqueline, great to have you here!

Jacqueline: Great to be here to chat with you, Sal. And maybe a good place to start—obviously everyone knows Google, some folks know Google.org. What is Google.org? Why does it exist? What does the .org mean?

So Google.org is Google's philanthropy, and essentially, we are a part of the company. We're a team embedded fully within Google, and the idea is to think about how we can use the unique strengths of Google to make the world better. Specifically, how can we address issues like education inclusion, and more recently, taking on issues like the COVID crisis, but doing so in a way that brings together the best of Google, all of our assets?

So we’re funded through a 1% commitment of our company's net profits each year, so it’s funding north of $200 million. But we also think about Google’s strengths in technology, and our Googlers are, you know, amazingly passionate employees who also want to step in. We often combine teams of Googlers who go and work alongside nonprofits along with funding, as well as our reach and our voice in advocacy.

And just to be clear, I mean, this is a little bit of a disclosure, and I also want to give you and Google credit for all of those who enjoy Khan Academy. A lot of people don't realize, Khan Academy, you know, and those that first backed it in 2010, actually, it was 2009 when the conversation started, when it was just me actually in the same walk-in closet that I’m in right now. You know, the folks at Google, y’all were down the road, about three miles down the road, talking about ways to educate the world.

There was this "10 to the hundredth" project, and Khan Academy was one of those projects, and y’all gave a significant donation at the time. It was a $2 million donation that essentially allowed Khan Academy to exist. And so I don't want to, you know, embarrass you too much with too much praise, but we would not exist without that. And then since then, Google.org has been a sponsor or a supporter of multiple projects at Khan Academy.

Jacqueline, maybe, you know, just to encourage everyone watching to ask any questions you have for Jacqueline or myself on YouTube or on Facebook, and I’ll surface them. But Jacqueline, maybe to make it more tangible, give examples of the types of stuff; I gave one, you know, my favorite example supported. But what other types of things do y’all do, either in the traditional philanthropic support or in that, you know, Google has special skills type of support?

Well, one that’s very topical right now that comes to mind is we’re investing in racial justice organizations. And particularly, we’ve had a historic commitment to helping to fight mass incarceration and to look at racial justice reform. So about five years ago, Justin Steele on my team led an initiative where we asked, what can Google do uniquely to help with this issue of deep systemic bias?

So we invested resources north of $32 million in fabulous partners, like Bryan Stevenson’s Equal Justice Initiative, organizations such as the Center for Policing Equity run by Dr. Phil Goff. And so we invested in organizations that are bringing together data and science and trying to figure out how can we solve some of these issues that are deeply rooted in systemic bias, but we’re having more data and evidence and where technology can really come to the forefront.

So we had a strong commitment there, and more recently, because of the movement that’s been happening across the U.S., we really wanted to make sure that these frontline organizations that are led by people of color are looking at what are the solutions that are in hand, so we reinvested in them and sent resources an additional $12 million. But also Googlers— I mean, we have passionate Googlers who have unique skill sets that they can bring to the table.

For example, working with the Vera Institute, a team of Google engineers, product managers, UX folks, and even marketing folks came alongside the Vera Institute and helped bring together for the first time ever data around jails around the country. You know, we talk a lot about federal prisons, but most folks are in jails, and there’s not really one authoritative data source that helps us look at who’s being incarcerated, what are the demographic characteristics, you know, how many are in for example just because they can’t pay bonds on jail bonds.

So that’s the kind of work that we do where we empower these frontline organizations to do what they’re doing and help build them through not only the funding and the resources but through Googlers.

I'm just curious, and it sounds like y’all have been doing this for a little while and you’re accelerating some of this around social justice and racial justice. Any surprising insights out of that data? How many people are there, for I'm just making up stuff, nonviolent offenses or for not being able to pay bond or things like that?

Yeah, I mean, it’s fascinating, and viewers can go to the Center for Policing Equity or the Vera Institute. Vera just published the data that we helped them put together with this project. But for example, you see that the numbers incarcerated were pretty steady through about 1980, and then it just hits an S-curve that looks a lot like COVID—just starts to accelerate, and you see just how the percentage that are incarcerated and percentages by race.

So for example, looking at how right now because of COVID, politicians and leaders are having to think about is this a time where we actually release some offenders, folks who are in prisons and jails early, in part because of COVID, and having the data to do so in an informed way to say, “Hey, these are nonviolent offenders, these are folks who are a very low risk to society.”

So that is an example of two streams of very current research and needs for data coming together: COVID and mass incarceration.

Yeah, and related to that, I have a question here from YouTube, Suzanna Garcia Dominguez, who’s one of our regular great question askers. She asks, “Hi Jacqueline, what are some of your innovative projects dealing with COVID-19?”

Well, you know it’s interesting with COVID. So my background is I used to work at the Gates Foundation, so I come from the field of global health originally. It’s just amazing how little we actually know, how much data we actually have on who’s being infected, how they’re being infected, and this is particularly true in the case of COVID for underrepresented groups.

We know that COVID is impacting, for example, the Black community and the Latino community at much higher rates than say the white community. We know that they are Black and Brown are more likely to be infected, they’re more likely to be hospitalized, unfortunately, more likely to die as well. But the data there to understand exactly where the hotspots and what interventions are working is not there.

So we just teamed up with the Morehouse School of Medicine, who has been doing some excellent work to gather more data to help inform particularly how COVID is impacting members of minority communities. So we gave them a $1 million grant, but we also sent, again, a team of Googlers to work with them on the data.

One thing that happened with that project—now that was a very recent project in about the last month or so—and we’re particularly at the Google expertise side helping with the use of AI (artificial intelligence) and machine learning to make sure that we’re taking that data and helping the teams there turn that into actionable information.

But the Department of Health and Human Services came alongside us in that project very quickly afterwards and invested an additional $40 million. I think that that’s a good example of what philanthropy can do because at the end of the day, the real engines of change, the real engines of scale, are the market and government. But I think philanthropy can play a role where we’re more catalytic—where we can help really at the beginning, kind of like we did with you, Sal—to help give that seed funding at the beginning to say, “This is a brilliant idea. We love Khan Academy. We believe in it. Let’s help invest in it in the beginning; let’s help to send technology teams as well.”

So we’re trying to do that with COVID as well.

Yeah, it was super. There’s a bunch of questions coming in, but actually, it would be interesting. You know, I think one of the fun things about this livestream is we have a lot of young people watching; they’re trying to figure out their own lives. You know, I remember being young—I guess I’m not anymore—and looking at, you know, people that seem successful and said, “How did they get there?”

So maybe it’d be fun to take a little step back. But then I do want to ask where you hope Google.org goes, but just your own personal journey. You know, how did you get into this career? Is this a career like, you know, running a foundation or philanthropic work? I mean, it is a career, but like, you know, there’s no major in college around it.

So tell us a little bit about what you thought you were gonna do growing up and how that evolved to where you are now.

Yes, I did not grow up as a little girl thinking to myself, “Someday I want to run corporate philanthropy.” So this was a bit of a zigzag trail to get to where I am. I actually started, when I was young, having a very strong commitment to social justice, and not really understanding or knowing how I could best make an impact but just having that as kind of my Northern Star. I knew I really wanted to invest myself and my time and my effort, my skills into an area where I was moving the needle in social justice.

So I actually started right out of college. I went to work in the government because at the time, you know, if you wanted to change things at scale, you joined the government. So I worked actually at the Department of Health and Human Services in Washington, D.C., and I was, I think, the most junior person you could possibly hire at the time. But I worked on issues of health disparities actually with minority communities and under Dr. Louis Sullivan, who was the head of HHS at the time and was actually coincidentally the founder of the Morehouse School of Medicine—so coming full circle.

So I worked in government for a couple of years, and then I thought I really would like to invest in myself, deepen my understanding, my knowledge, my technical skills as well. So I went and got a master’s in public policy from the Kennedy School of Government.

And you know, while I was there, I actually got pregnant, and my husband and I had a nice surprise when I was in graduate school, so we had our first daughter, Hosanna. So I took some time where I really focused on being a mom to two young kids, and then when I went back to work after a few years, there was this new startup; we were living in Seattle at the time called the Gates Foundation.

Bill Gates said—I read an article where Bill Gates said, “I am going to give the majority of my money away, and I’m gonna give it to help the poorest of the poor,” and I just thought, “Hire me! I will help you!” So I threw myself at the Gates Foundation and eventually got a job there. I was there for about eight years, and then I heard about another crazy startup called Google.org, and I thought, “Okay, I have, you know, I’ve worked in government and private philanthropy. I’ve never actually worked in a company; I’d like to see what companies can do,” and this sounds like a very interesting startup. So I came down to join Google.org about 12 years ago.

Yeah, and your path is very connected to us because, you know, back in 2010, the two organizations that frankly allowed Khan Academy to become a real organization were at Google and the Gates Foundation with that first round of funding. And then they have obviously since then been great supporters; it’s all connected.

What do you think has kind of contributed to your success here? What do you think has made you good at what you do?

Missing down really boring when I say this, but number one is hard work. I think I had to outwork a lot of people to get to where I am and be smarter and be better and be more resilient and habit. I think that’s kind of been a new boutique area of study. Angela Duckworth and others have really done the research studies on grit and how important of a characteristic that is. But you know, I mentioned, for example, when I was at the Kennedy School, I had my daughter, Hosanna, in the middle of my second year, and Kennedy School said, “We recommend you leave,” and I said, “No, I think I’m gonna graduate.”

And they gave me no parental leave; there was no such thing at the time—didn’t actually exist. So I had her on a Thursday, and I went back to school on Monday. I got, well, you know, I got no break; I had to finish every single thesis and experience and whatnot.

So there have been times in my career where I think really digging deep, having that grit and perseverance and hard work is super important. I would say the other thing, Sal, is I just have always run towards my energy. I’ve always run towards what really lights me up, and I think, you know, we hear a lot about following your passion, but at some level I think it’s actually true—find that source of energy that really is gonna get you up in the morning and help you read that research article and reinvigorate your energy. But also ask yourself, “How am I gonna get paid to do this?” And “Where can I uniquely plug in? Where can I make the most difference?”

Follow my energy, but realistically, you know, be able to build a career and a well-being that’s gonna be sustainable. So I never really had a path like, “Oh, I definitely want to work in philanthropy. I definitely want to do this or that,” but I’ve used more of those guidelines and characteristics.

And it definitely is. I mean, there’s so just even in the story you told us, you know, the fact that you read about the Gates Foundation starting. I think a lot of the world probably read about it, but there’s something—and you said I want them to hire me—that I think mindset.

And they said no; they said no so many times. So the article came out, and the Gates Foundation was just starting, and it was very much in stealth mode. So they said the reporter was led into their office, which was above a pizza shop in Redmond, Washington.

So I drove over to Redmond, Washington, and I looked at all the pizza shops, and I looked for one with an office above it, and I basically figured out where they were. And then I would go there every day, and I would shove my resume and my cover letter into their mailbox and, you know, make a case for why they needed to hire me and why I would, you know, be so great on their team.

And then they would email me back a very polite rejection, like, three times. And this is a true story, Sal—this is a true story. And then after the third time, literally, I got this email from Jack Barris who said, “I will meet you for 15 minutes at Starbucks in Redmond if you promise to never bother us again,” and he ended up hiring me!

Sal: You stalked the Gates Foundation!

Jacqueline: I sure did! I mean, I made the case. I made the case of why I brought them value. I’ve learned that you don’t need to make the case. Young people—people who are trying to get a job—do not make the case of why such and such is your dream job. Don’t convince Sal working at the Khan Academy is your dream job. Convince Sal that you are gonna be a value to him, that you are going to make his life easier, that you are bringing a skill set that he desperately needs, because that’s one thing I’ve learned as an employer and sitting on the other side of the table.

Sal: No, and that’s right. As much as, you know, I would like to believe that, yes, you are definitely drawn to people who can make your life easier and who can help fulfill a broader mission or vision that you’re part of, or invested in.

Well, I am curious—that I mean, this is a much more interesting story than I expected when we kind of started double-clicking on it. What was that meeting like? I mean, you know, if this person who’s kind of trying to get rid of you—you’ve been sending them a resume, he’s not taking no for an answer—like, I’m assuming he didn’t have the posture of like, “I’m really excited about this conversation.”

No, but he was a gracious man; that’s why I named him, and look, I also had to be flexible on my end, right? So I had just, you know, I had a Harvard degree—I had published research; I was funded by the Ford Foundation to do some of my own research. And when I was pitching myself, I was pitching myself more as, “Hey, I can help with econometrics; I can do any measurement and evaluation.”

There are all these various, you know, public policy and he was like, “Yeah, I don’t think we’re ready actually for advocacy or public policy, and I don’t actually even know what econometrics are, but thank you.” But you know, he started to think, and he was like, “You’re a very good writer, and we actually need someone to write our brochure.”

And so if I was literally hired in order to write their brochure—so a couple of lessons here, especially for women and girls who might be listening: one thing is I think sometimes we have to get our foot in the door and being willing to be a little bit flexible.

The other thing is when he said, “We need someone to write our first brochure and to design it and work with vendors and get it published,” and he said, “Is that something you can do?” and I started to do the typical girl thing, like, “Oh, I’ve never—well, I’ve never done that before, but you know, I’d be happy to try.”

And something came up that, some spirit came up out of me, and I was like, “Absolutely, I can do that.” And so I was hired on contract to do their first brochure, and it went okay. And then he was like, “You know, we actually need someone now to create our first website. Is that something you can do?” And again, you know Sal, I had no experience with websites; I barely understood the internet and could function on email at the time, but I said, “Absolutely, I can absolutely build a website.”

And so I think sometimes just being brave, taking that step, believing in yourself, and then eventually, I got hired. And when I left, I was the deputy director of the global health program eight years later, and I used to bring Bill and Melinda Gates to Africa and India and Pakistan and all over the world for weeks at a time to do their learning and their education and advocacy trips. So I really appreciate that Gates was willing to take a bet on me early in my career.

Sal: No, there’s a lot because the lesson is you had some real skills that you had built over time. And so, you know, the real message for those young people—I feel old now whenever I say that—but for those young people listening is build up your skills as well as possible. And in that, you know, I think the writing skill, the critical-thinking skill, and just the can-do witness skill, yeah, then with a little sprinkle of resilience and self-confidence can go a long way is what I'm hearing.

Yeah, and you know, especially I get asked a lot from people who really want to have a career in social impact, and I bet you get this a lot too, Sal, or people are saying they’re coming fresh out of college, maybe a few years out, and they’re saying, “I want to make a difference; I really want to invest my whole self, my career in social justice or making an impact, changing the world, changing climate change.” I often tell them the most important thing you can do right now is to build and develop a tangible hard skill.

And that hard skill can be writing; it can be critical writing; it can be coding; it can be finance and auditing; it can be PR; be an excellent product manager. But really, the nonprofit sector, the government, philanthropy, the do-gooder sector needs people with hard skills and experience. So invest in yourself, develop those skills, and do that first and bring those into your lifelong career.

And there’s a question here from YouTube from Jasper, “Not even a rapper,” says, “Jacqueline, what would you say to help market yourself in a climate where your degree might not apply or be useful skills?” And this is a very relevant question right now. Obviously we’re at record levels of unemployment; there are new jobs and new industries all the time that have no degrees for them. How does someone transition, or if their resume doesn’t say that they’re meant for that, how do they convince folks?

Great question, Jasper! You heard my story and the fact that I had to believe in myself and be willing to really learn and do different things and come into a job where I was going to have a steep learning curve. So I think part of it is that flexibility on our part, you know, as people.

I think also look, the world is changing so much, and degrees, especially you know, what major you were and what, you know, grades got your major, I think these kinds of things are going to matter less and less, and it’s gonna be a lot about lifelong learning. So, you know, using resources like Khan Academy, for example, learning, taking new skills, and new certifications are gonna make you very relevant in the job market.

I will say the other thing, Jasper, is that we need to change; employers need to change. We need to get off of our fixation on degrees and four-year degrees, really, and actually hire for skills. That’s gonna really help us to have a more diverse workforce; it’s gonna really help us build better products.

And so at Google, for example, one thing that we have done is to really try to reevaluate our requirements for our jobs and to really state a four-year college degree not required or CS major not required if you have the skills at hand needed for this role. So there’s movement that’s needed on both sides of that.

You know, that’s super valuable. And I realize these conversations, they always go way faster than I expect them to because I could talk for another hour just even on this career aspect of it, but I want to make sure there’s space to talk about kind of the future of Google.org and your work there. And maybe we can even connect—I mean there’s this question from YouTube from Newport Metha, “How hard is it to run a company?” I mean that goes into a whole, you know, kind of your day to day and what are your stresses or your hopes, and maybe how does that flow into what you hope Google.org is able to do over the years to come?

Well, you know, something said to me once and I didn’t believe it at the time; I thought they were making it up. But it was a female executive—I’m forgetting who—but she said, “You know, it’s actually easier to be CEO than it was to be like a line director.” It’s actually easier sometimes as you move up the food chain because you’re able to control your schedule more, control your life more, focus on the things that you’re good at, and hire excellent people to cover all of the areas that you’re really not good at.

And so I would say that that’s true, and I see that as a word of encouragement to people who are maybe wondering if they have what it takes to go to that next level, to be CEO or to run the show at whatever level. And I think sometimes when you’re looking up at that and you think, “Well, I’m working so hard right now, and I’m so stressed right now; it must be 10x at that level.” Actually, sometimes it’s easier because you have more control.

So that’s just something to consider about, you know, the question about being the boss. And I’ve always believed also—I was told early on—hire people who are smarter and better than you are. Don’t be threatened by them.

And so I have always tried to hire an A-team, and my deputies are smarter and better than me in so many ways. Empowering your people so that you’re not alone, you know, there’s not this lonely list at the top or feeling that you’re carrying the weight of Atlas on your shoulders.

I’ve built a very collaborative leadership team where I feel like we are carrying the load together. I have people like Hannah Peter, for example, who is running our education portfolio and has done a lot of the work that we’ve been doing more recently with Khan Academy, with DonorsChoose, and being able to trust someone like her, Andrew Dunkelman, and say, “Hey, you all have this; I’m gonna just listen to your recommendations here,” has been amazing in terms of increasing the impact that Google.org can have and frankly helping me to be a better leader.

And what, you know, with that lens, and I think I need some coaching from you because I definitely have things that I’m always coping with. And part of it—there—the loneliness is part of it, sometimes if I’m honest!

But what is your hope, you know, for—actually, I’ll broaden it—for Google.org over the years to come and even for your own direct impact either through Google.org or broadly?

I mean, so my dream is actually that we find and fund and support and empower a thousand Sal Khan’s, right? You are actually our success story, right? Because our job is to invest, provide this seed funding—the catalytic funding that is necessarily—that is necessary.

And I think philanthropic capital can take risks and, you know, companies like Google—tech companies—can be particularly useful, I think, when it comes to investing in technology. A lot of funders and governments and private individuals don’t feel like they know or understand enough about, let’s say, technology or artificial intelligence; they’re just not gonna invest in those organizations.

So that’s something I think we should always ask ourselves either as individuals, as companies, “Where am I uniquely gifted? How can I make a difference that is built on my unique strengths?” So for Google.org, we are Google; we are a technology company, and technology is desperately needed in the social impact sector.

So that’s where we’re doubling down. So when an issue comes up like education or COVID, we think about what are the platforms, what are the scaled ways that are leveraging technology where we could really help shift the curve?

So when Sal, when you came along, I don’t know if I’ve ever told you this story, but part of it was that my husband John is an elementary school teacher, and he has been a classroom teacher for almost 30 years, and he was an early user of Khan Academy!

Sal: Oh, I need to send him a box of chocolates!

Jacqueline: Oh man, a big box with some chocolate in there because his wife likes it! But, you know, I saw firsthand what a difference Khan Academy made for a classroom teacher. And then later in life, so my daughter Hosana—who was born, I said, when I was in grad school—so she majored in computer science, actually, in college. And when she needed help with her homework or her problem sets or really wanted to understand something that was happening in the classroom, she went to Khan Academy, and she was so—you were tremendously helpful in her career.

So I’ve been personally able to see firsthand how helpful Khan Academy is; that’s why we invested in the beginning. But then also I benefited from those fruits later on with my daughter, where I think for terribly—as a female and in computer science—it was tremendously helpful for her to have a resource to go to.

Sal: Well, that’s always wonderful to hear! And actually, you never did tell me—I mean, back in 2000, it was actually 2009 when we started first having the conversations with Google.

I remember, you know, I was kind of overwhelmed, not knowing what to make of it. I used to walk in, and I said like placemats, slides, and I remember there was a big room of folks that said, “What would you do with more resources?” A lot of us had been using it—we didn’t realize you were just one guy in a closet operating three miles down the road.

It was all an interesting time; it’s fun to talk about it in hindsight now, but yeah, it was. Yeah, it was—it was interesting.

Well, Jacqueline, I mean, we’ve got to do this again if you’re up for it, but we’re unfortunately all out of time. But any, you know, final thoughts, words of wisdom, ideas, things you want to throw out there?

I mean, we are in a moment right now, not only in the U.S., but globally, we are in a moment. There are something like two billion kids who are not able to go to the traditional schooling that they had. If there was ever a moment for Khan Academy to come up and shine and be utilized, it is this moment!

So I don’t think I mentioned earlier, but we actually just regranted to Khan Academy. He did not ask me to say this, but let me say—we just gave additional funding in the last couple of months because we recognize this is a global moment where we need to be investing in platforms that hit scale, that are available in local languages, and content that teachers can use.

Teachers are the heroes; they are the frontline essential workers. This is a way that we can all invest in them. So thank you, Khan Academy; thank you, Sal; thank you everyone out there who is working to make the world a better place in your own unique way. This is a moment!

Sal: Yeah, well, obviously I couldn’t agree more, and Jacqueline, thank you so much for obviously the work that you’ve been able to do with us and help with our mission but also, well beyond that, the incredible work that you all are doing at Google.org.

Thank you so much for joining!

Jacqueline: Thanks so much, Sal; I appreciate it!

Sal: Thank you!

So thanks everyone for joining, as always. I really—you know something, my perception of time changes when we’re having a good conversation; it goes by very, very fast. But as you could tell, it was a really, really fun conversation!

We’re not going to be doing a livestream tomorrow, but we will be having— I think on Tuesday, we’re gonna be coming back. We have two guests next week, both very, very interesting; Casey Wasserman, famous, I guess you could say, agent in the sports and entertainment world. So I think there should be some really interesting conversation there.

And you might not have heard of this, Dr. Anthony Fauci, to talk about obviously the situation that we’re all in together. So we look forward to seeing you next week!