White Guilt | Matt Walsh

Matt, let's take a turn to your movie. Do you want to walk people through that a bit? I saw it, by the way, and it looks to me like you'll have the same kind of radical success with it that you did with "What Is A Woman." You've got this everyman quality about you, you know? You're... and I think it's true, by the way. I mean, there is some of that about you, but you also do a good job of being a naive investigator into the crazy world of ideological possession. Do you want to walk us through the movie a little bit?

Sure. Um, yeah, you know, we decided... we, of course, we had "What Is A Woman," and it was very successful for us. And we're thinking about, you know, this is going back two years ago, thinking about, um, what topic do we want to tackle next and how to tackle it. And for me, it was very clear. I wanted to get into... we talked about, you know, we did the movie, we investigated gender, broadly speaking. Um, race is the other one culturally, and so I knew I wanted to investigate that.

The question was, like, how do you approach it and with "What Is A Woman"? I mean, the strategy is right there in the title. It's just this one basic question that the whole thing hinges on. Now with race, it's not quite like that. There isn't one... there's a lot of questions; there's not one basic one. Um, it's just a different beast in a lot of ways. And so, uh, and we also didn't want to repeat just, uh, you know, we didn't want to do "What Is A Woman" but with race.

So, at this time, we thought it'd be interesting to take a different approach, and that is to start as the clueless naive investigator asking questions. The only difference here is that whereas with "What Is A Woman," I was kind of a blank slate the whole way through, just asking questions, not... not having any real, like, position on it myself in the film until the very, very end.

Um, in this one, we thought, well, okay, what if, uh, I start by asking questions and rather than remaining a blank slate and remaining skeptical, I’ll just believe whatever I’m told? So they'll give me an answer and I'll accept that, and then I'll let that answer lead me to the next place. Um, and that’s the strategy we took with this, and it kind of takes us... and we really did approach it in filming this way so that we had a really broad outline of what... what... where we wanted to go with the film and where we wanted to end up, but you can't really script it out because we go to talk to someone; we don't know exactly what they're going to say or how it's going to go.

And so this is why filming it was... over a year; it was a long process because we kind of let... we let the story guide us and, uh, went down the rabbit hole that way. And in the process, um, because I'm kind of believing what these anti-racist DEI people are telling me and, and sort of adopting their views and trying to put them into practice, so that was the... that was the goal—to not just ask them about it but to take what they say, put it into practice on screen so that people can see it. And, um, so it's a much more direct, I think, way of kind of testing these ideas, maybe even than we did in "What Is A Woman."

You got DEI certified?

Okay, so a couple of comments. So you adopt a persona; you've got a man bun. I've got a hint for you: if you ever do this again, is you have to learn to uptalk at the end of your sentences. You have to make every sentence into something that sounds like a question because your voice gives you away. Because you've got this flat authoritative voice, like you just make declarative statements—there's no question in them. And one of the things you'll notice about the DEI types, this is very telling, is that they always end every sentence with an uptalk. It's... it's a form of validation seeking, and you're belied by your authoritative voice as a DEI man bun specialist. And so you might want to give that some consideration when you're trying to pass for one of the people who you're investigating.

Anyways, you went and got DEI certification, so I'm kind of wondering if that might be handy for you to re-educate me. Since I seem to be, uh, destined now to being re-educated by DEI specialists, um, you took that training. What the hell was that like?

Uh, well, it was very easy, it turns out. Um, literally, anyone can get DEI certified, is what we discovered, uh, because there's no... it's not like there's some official process. Uh, it's not like, you know, it's not like becoming a certified plumber or electrician, you know? It's not anything like that. It's not a real profession. It's not a real thing; so anyone—anyone can, uh, get certified. Anyone can declare themselves an expert, is what we discovered.

And how long did it take you, the actual process of getting certified?

Yeah, yeah, I don't know, 30 minutes, maybe.

Hey, so you mean I could go get DEI certified and then I could present that to the Ontario College of Psychologists as evidence for my successful re-education?

You absolutely could and should. I mean, I could give you... I don't have the website in front of me, but there's a certain website we went to get our, to get our certification, and I'd be happy to pass it along to you. I think you absolutely should do that! Oh, it opens up a lot of doors, we found. And, um, you know, even aside from the certification, it's really... because you're right, that that's kind of one of, like, the meta jokes in the movie, that yeah, I'm like wearing a costume, but it's not that convincing; it's really just a man bun. I don't even shave my beard!

We talked about... we talked about, yeah, in the process of of making the film, we... we thought that it'd be very difficult to get in the room with these people if all I'm wearing is a wig because I am... I do have a pretty distinct look and sound. And so the idea was floated, well, maybe I shave the beard? That would be a pretty drastic change of my look. That... that was a no-go for me; I'm not going to do that. There are some things I'm just not willing to do.

Um, but what we found is that it actually didn't... it didn't matter because even the wig probably didn't matter that much. All they want to know is that you are repeating certain buzzwords and phrases. That if you repeat them back to these people, uh, they will accept you as part of the tribe and they're not going to be very skeptical about it. We... it was the same thing we were making "What Is A Woman." We got in the room with a lot of these types in the gender space, and there was no disguise at all in that case.

Um, and the way we did it was just... all you have to... they're just looking for the key words. And, um, if you... if they think that you are part of the tribe, they drop all the defenses, and they'll sit in the room with you. And I think, part in both those cases, part of the reason why it was so easy—uh, may not be so easy for anyone who tries to do it again now, after we made both these movies—but it was easy at the time because all of these people live in a bubble.

Um, they live in a world where they're... they're never challenged on their beliefs; they're never even around anyone who would disagree with them. So, I think for them, uh, the idea that they might be interviewed by someone who fundamentally disagrees with them was really just like unthinkable. They never even considered the possibility because they're never even around those kinds of people.

Um, and we... we really kind of punctured that bubble, I guess, in making the... so the most surprising thing to me—and I don't want to be speaking out of turn here—was the fact that you got to talk to Robin D'Angelo. And Robin D'Angelo famously is the author of, um, "White Fragility," which is really one of the most despicable books, I would say, that’s ever been written. And I think she also fits into that category as a thinker and likely as a human being.

And, um, is it reasonable for you to talk a little bit about that? I don't know how you managed that, and I don't want to blow the punchline, but...

Yeah, I think there's... most of the content of that exchange with her, I think they don’t want me to talk about at this point and give away the spoilers.

Okay, okay. That... that conversation does go to a place that, um, maybe will be unexpected for a lot of people. But, um, the fact that she's in the movie is no secret. We have her in the trailer, right? And that... that kind of goes... what I... what I just said, that I think for her, she's probably the prime example of this because you would think, if you didn’t know any better, you would think it’d be difficult to get Robin D'Angelo into a room, uh, and that she’d be looking out for anyone who maybe who... who maybe isn’t in her tribe. She'd be looking out for this kind, for example. Because, you know, you might... you might suggest that possibly Robin D'Angelo, if she was even vaguely informed about absolutely anything that she purports to be doing, would know who the hell you are, right?

You would think, but... yeah, you apparently not. Because I think she’s probably the prime example of this of someone who, in her day-to-day life, she probably almost never even interacts with or speaks to anyone who is not, um, as far to the left as she is on all these issues, or at least almost as far. Uh, that’s just the world that she’s in. And so when I’m sitting across the room with her having a conversation, I mean, it’s probably the first time in years, if not ever, that she has in this case unwittingly but has found herself sitting in a room with someone who fundamentally disagrees with her, um, about almost everything.

And, uh, I don’t know, these academic leftist types, that's the kind of bubble they're in. For a lot of us... we... you know, for me, obviously, because I am conservative, and, uh, you know, my family's conservative and I work here at The Daily Wire, most of the people that I’m around are conservative. But, you know, I interact with people that are far-left all the time. It's, um, it would be a lot more difficult for someone on the left to do to me what we did to Robin D'Angelo because I'm aware that these people are out there. I know who they are. I'm looking out for that kind of thing; it’d be hard for them to pull off, um, because I'm just not in the same kind of bubble, I guess, that she is.

So, two... two more questions about the movie. Um, what did you learn as a consequence of doing it and why should people go see it, as far as you’re concerned?

I think there are several things. Maybe... maybe the main thing that I learned, and I don’t know if it’s learned so much as illustrated for me, um, but the extent to which a lot of people that fall for this... you know, there are the people that push it, the Robin D'Angelo types, uh, the women who run the Race to Dinner, who we have in the film.

Oh yes, that’s Sarah Ra, yeah.

Uh, the DEI... she’s the worst person on Twitter, which is really... or arguably, the way she... every single thing that that woman does is self-serving and malevolent to the bloody core. She is a real miracle-tot. She runs those dinners where the white women pay to be humiliated by two unbelievably narcissistic psychopaths so that they can feel good about themselves without actually having to do any moral... having to put in any of the moral effort.

Exactly, exactly! And that’s... and that’s the thing. So, so those types of people, the people that are running the show, you know, that’s one thing. And I don’t know how much they even believe a lot of what they’re saying. I don’t think they believe all of it, certainly. Um, and there's not a lot to be learned about them. I think that they're kind of... yeah, they're grifters; they're con artists. Uh, they're making a lot of money on this stuff. That's... that’s a big part of the motivation. It’s not very complicated.

Um, but what's more interesting to me are the... it’s like the women who would sit around that table, who are paying money to be there, or the people that would... that would willingly attend one of these seminars that we have in the film—people that would willingly read Robin D'Angelo's book.

I’ve always... I’m more interested in them. Like, what’s going on with them? And what I found making the film is that, uh, you really can't overstate the guilt that these people are walking around with. What... white guilt? White guilt is a very real phenomenon, and I knew that making the movie, but having it illustrated so profoundly was still pretty enlightening to me.

Uh, that a lot of these people are just... they're walking around with a lot of guilt. And, uh, for someone for like a... a sane rational white person like myself and you, it's... it can be kind... it’s hard to understand because I’ve never spent any time feeling guilty about slavery or Jim Crow. I had nothing to do with it. I... it’s just... I’ve never spent any time feeling guilty about it at all.

And so it’s hard for us to understand people who are... not only have they felt guilt about it, but they’re overcome with guilt by this kind of thing. And, um, yeah, I guess how much of that is... that how much of that, though, too, is that they want to signal how overcome by guilt they are so that they look like hyper moral agents? You know, it's like... I see the same thing with mothers in particular who brandish their trans children like they’re a flag of pride. It’s like, oh, look at how upset and confused my child is, and yet I’m still wonderful enough to love them no matter what. You know, it's a really malevolent game!

And that parading your self-flagellation as an indication of the profundity of your guilt, that's a pretty bloody ugly game too. Now, you know, I understand that there's a fair bit of genuine moral confusion mixed in there, but the self-serving in public? You notice that those women go to those dinners in groups. It's not Sarah Ro and her pathological partner with one woman; they have to do that in groups so they can signal to each other the depths of their moral virtue.

Yeah, I think that’s certainly right. There’s a certain amount of virtue signaling that goes into it for sure. Um, but if you're in, you know, the Race to Dinner, just using that again as an example, and that's... you know, that’s seven or eight minutes in the movie, but in real life, of course, you're making a movie... uh, especially a movie like this, they take a lot longer to film. And that was really two hours. I mean, that dinner went on for two hours and you can see these women sitting around at this table at various points crying, uh, seemingly very much overcome with emotion, talking about their racism that they feel, you know, and given opportunities to talk about examples of when they're... when they committed racist acts. And then they share their examples, and it’s like none of the examples they give are actual racism.

And, yeah, again some of that is them just showing off, but I do think that at the core of it there is real guilt here. And my own—and we could have spent another two hours psychoanalyzing this—but I think my own theory about how they can feel this guilt is that, uh, it’s a... it’s a replacement for religion. I mean, these are almost all of them are irreligious people. Even if they would call themselves Christians, they're not really.

And, um, you know, traditionally religion has given us an answer for guilt because we all do. Now, I don’t feel any... I don’t feel any racial... I don’t feel any white guilt, but I do feel guilt. I... I do experience guilt, uh, for things that I do that are wrong. If I commit sins, I feel guilty about them. But then I turn to my faith, and that gives me an answer for number one, why I feel that guilt, what that guilt is from, and then what to do with it. What do I do about it—about that guilt?

Um, and I can turn to my faith and get an answer to all of that, but if you take religion out of it, well, now you've still got people that are sinning, that are doing evil acts, and so they're still going to feel the guilt because of it. But they don’t have a way of understanding that guilt. They don’t have any way of interpreting it. And so they look around for someone to tell them what to do with the guilt, and then these race hustlers are there, and they'll tell you, "Oh, I'll tell you why you feel guilty. It's because of this."