Khan Academy Ed Talks with Olav Schewe - Tuesday, June 1

Hello! Welcome to Ed Talks with Khan Academy. We are excited to have you here as we talk to people who are influential in the education space. Today, we're talking to Olive Chewie, who has a book coming out that we're looking forward to talking to about learning.

Before we get started, I want to remind you first that Khan Academy is a non-profit, and we rely on donations from folks like you to help us do the work that we're doing. So if you have the ability to, whatever amount works for you to help us continue on our mission, we really appreciate that support.

Uh, we also, during COVID-19, have had some companies that have really stepped up, and want to express our appreciation for them. Those include Bank of America, AT&T, Google.org, Novartis, Fastly, and General Motors. Thank you!

Also, if you want to catch up on some of the video chats that you have missed, and maybe you're on the go and want to catch a podcast, you can catch them in the Homeroom with Sal, the podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. You can find those and enjoy in your spare time or on the elliptical, as I do.

And so today, as I said, we have an author with us who has today released in the U.S. "Learn Like a Pro: Science-Based Tools to Become Better at Anything." Olive Chewie is joining us today, and we are looking forward to talking about learning. Welcome, Olive!

Thank you! It is great to have you here. So first, as we get started, I like to just find out from people how they got to be interested in learning. And you know, most of us were students at some point and struggled, or at different points with learning. And how that came in. But not everyone takes that and says, "I'm going to become an expert at this thing." So how did you take that journey?

So we need to go back to junior high school when I was a quite average student in most respects. I noticed that around that time, that's when we started getting grades on the tests that we were doing, and I found out that I was sort of quite average and other students were doing better. I struggled to reach the top of the grading scale, and so I assumed that in order to get good results in school, you had to be very smart. I had a worldview that some people were born extremely intelligent, and they did well, and the rest didn't stand a chance to do well in school.

But then I also discovered that those in class who got the good grades had other study habits than I had. They had other study methods. And so I thought, what would happen if I adapted the way I studied? So I started reading about how to learn, and that eventually helped me improve my results in school. I eventually graduated with the highest grade point average in high school. I was admitted to the University of Oxford, and so I really benefited in my life from learning about learning. And once I was done with my education, I wanted to help others learn how to learn.

So that's great! So what was something that back in those days that you actually tried and found to be helpful for you?

So, back in those days, typically when I was reading, I thought that the number of times you read through something—the more you read something, the better. So if I read through a chapter three times, for example, that would be great, and that would be three times as good as if I only read through it once. What I discovered, however, was that even after reading it three times, I didn't necessarily remember it so much. And if I slowed down and stopped to think about what I was reading, checking if I had understood it, I retained much more.

Um, and so that was just one small discovery, and I made tons of these discoveries. I also tried a lot of things that didn't work very well. For example, I listened to audiobooks at night during sleep and thought that might be a very efficient way to learn, but I woke up very grumpy and tired. So I did a lot of this experimenting back and forth and eventually found some really good ways to learn.

Yeah, I had a friend who used to read her notes, and then I similarly played them when she slept. She realized it was actually not the playing them while she was sleeping, but it was like reading through and saying the notes in her own words again that was actually helping her learn, and she didn't need to play them while she was sleeping to get the benefit of that.

Definitely! Exactly! Um, I also had that reading piece in my experience as well. You feel like if I just highlight the right things and then keep rereading them, that that must get it into my brain. It turns out that's not how it works so much. Also, many people will do is that they paraphrase, for example. So they have something written in the book, and then they just copy that over to their own notes. It can take a lot of time and it takes a lot of effort, but you might transfer something over onto another paper, but it doesn't transfer into your long-term memory.

Yeah, absolutely. So before we get more into that, let me also ask. So I know you did this language learning experiment in Buenos Aires, Argentina. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, so I've always been interested in languages and foreign cultures, and I've been wanting to learn Spanish for quite a long time. Actually, but learning a language is such a massive big task, and I never really had the time to focus on it and really pursue it.

Um, but then I had some time right before the pandemic, and I thought now I've spent so much time learning about learning. So I created a challenge for myself where I tried to see if I could become fluent in Spanish in just one month by applying the best techniques for learning that I had come across and by focusing on it fully for one month. And I did it! One week ago, I released a documentary about it that's on YouTube, in case you want to see.

That's where I saw it! Excellent! That is great that you got to do it right before the pandemic reality to stay home. So good timing!

Yeah, that was actually excellent timing, just right before everything closed down.

Excellent! That is great! Well, I, as you said, I caught it on YouTube as I was looking at, you know, kind of doing some research for this show and was interested to see what you had done. So what prompted you to write this book?

So, this book is a joint project between myself and Dr. Barbara Oakley, who's also written several other books on learning. We connected a few years ago; we both published our first book about learning in 2014, and both books did fairly well.

Um, and then a few years ago we connected. We found that we sort of found a lot of common ground, and we decided to write the next book on how to learn, taking into account everything we have learned since the last book that we wrote about learning. And we also felt that people now are so busy; there's so much to do, there's so many things to learn, that there was a need for a very concise, to-the-point book that explains what you should do, but also why, but in a very concise manner. So we challenged ourselves to write a very handy book, and that book was published today.

Great! Great! So, uh, viewers, there's a reminder you can put questions in the chat here. So let's dive into some of the pieces about learning.

So one of the big pieces about learning is how do we move things from kind of that working memory, where it's active and we're able to manipulate things, into our long-term memory, where we can access it later and think about where things are? How... what are some good ways to be able to do that, to get that information into long-term memory?

So there are several, of course, but what psychology has found is that one of the most robust and best techniques is retrieval practice. And it's funny because when we're learning, we often want to place things into long-term memory, but it turns out the best way to get things into long-term memory is to take it out, retrieve it out as many times as possible.

So retrieval practice is anything where you try to remember what you just read. It can be closing a book after you read a chapter and then trying to recall what you just read. It can be writing down what you just learned. It can be studying with flashcards, for example. You see you're learning foreign vocabulary; you see the word in English on one page, one side, and then you try to remember what the foreign language version was on the other side. And you can also discuss with others, but then without too much help—just trying to recall from your own memory.

Yeah, it's... it always strikes me that when you're trying to remember something, what you're doing is you're pulling it out of memory. So that's what you should practice doing: pulling things out to be able to access them. That always makes it... it's almost as if, you know, if someone... if you were storing something into the forest, and it can be easy to forget where it's stored, but if you make a path and you walk that path, you know, back and forth enough times, the vegetation will break down, and then you'll have a very solid path that makes it easier for you to access, you know, whatever you've stored there.

And so, yeah, it's really about using what you learned—not just passively absorbing—but actually actively using it and bringing it out of long-term memory. That makes sense.

So how do you... I know that Dr. Oakley does a lot of neuroscience work, and there's a lot of... in the book, neuroscience basis for a lot of these things. What are some things that you found, that kind of explanation for that you found was really helpful in understanding why maybe something works for learning? Is there an example of where there's a good biological basis for the recommendation that you're making?

Yes, I'd say... oh, I mean overall, and we put great emphasis on that in the book also, showing why certain techniques work, and what I find is that when you understand a little bit of the neuroscience, it becomes much easier to use good techniques because you get a much richer understanding of the technique, so you can apply them a little bit better in the right situations, etc.

And so one of the things that I found very, very helpful from neuroscience, which Barb has been teaching for a few years, is this difference between the task positive and the task negative networks, which we call the diffused and the focused mode of the brain. And basically what that means is that the brain has two different modes of thinking and learning. It has a mode which is very focused, which is when you're working actively to solve a problem or to think about something, but then it also has a mode which works when you are relaxing or when you are not focusing intently on something, which we call the diffuse mode.

And it's easy to think that learning happens only when you're actively focused on something. You're trying really hard, but it turns out a lot of learning also happens when you're relaxing because your brain continues to work on it. So many students will think that a good quality is to, you know, don't give up and to persevere, even if you're in those types of situations. What you need is this diffused mode that works when you are not focusing, because that can access information in a whole different way; it can help you connect ideas.

So sometimes taking a break can really help you while learning. Um, and this is something you probably noticed as well, that you're struggling with a problem in the evening; then you go to sleep, and the next morning you have a solution. It's because this diffused mode keeps working on things in the background. And you can use this actually more day-to-day: if you're really struggling with something you're learning, take a break or do something else and then continue later. Understanding these two modes, for example, has helped me a lot in my own learning.

Awesome! That is great! So is that like when... is there... is there that part of the explanation of why when I used to walk my dog sometimes it would seem like, you know, I'm not paying attention to anything, but then all of a sudden, like when I would come back, I would seem to sit at my computer and have lots more thoughts about the thing that I was working on instead of...

Exactly! Because you might think that you're relaxing, you're taking a break, and you aren't... and in a way, you are! But your brain continues to work with whatever you were doing before that break.

Um, another term for this in psychology is the incubation effect, that, you know, sometimes you have a problem, something that needs to incubate a little bit. And it's also what happens if you struggle to recall the name of a person, you know? You might see someone in the stream, and it's like, "Oh, I know that person!" But you just can't... er, you just can't recall the name. And then all of a sudden, half an hour later, it kind of falls down from the sky. It’s that diffuse mode that's been working in the background, trying to find the name within your long-term memory.

Got it! Got it! So that kind of relates to a question that's just come in from Kelden Chan on Facebook. That's asked, "How can we balance our hobbies with our studies?" And thinking about those two, maybe it's relating to those two modes, but also thinking about, you know, as we think about how much time should we be studying and how much time should we be maybe doing some other things?

Oh, that's a very good question, and it depends on many things, of course! But what we do know is that if you are learning a lot of new information, your... or a part of your brain called the hippocampus can get overwhelmed if you don't take breaks.

So you might think that it's a good idea to sit for a very long stretch of time, but your brain struggles to process all of this information, and taking a few breaks helps your brain better store this information in long-term memory. So breaks are important for learners from that perspective.

And I think, you know, how much time you should spend learning really depends on your ambitions and how much time you have and how difficult the material is. But I've always felt that if you're a full-time college student, for example, and you sit and work for eight hours a day at a kind of normal workday, you should be satisfied with your effort for that day.

And there's actually research showing also that students who study too much actually do worse because if you sit for too long of a time, you also tend to become more ineffective. And at some point, it tips. If you just keep adding more and more hours, that makes sense.

That again, it comes back to those breaks and giving your brain a chance to rest. Um, that'll make sense! So it also relates... we're heading into summer, at least here in this hemisphere. Um, and I know lots of parents are thinking about, you know, how much academic time should they be spending this summer with their kids and thinking about, you know, worried that they didn't achieve everything they wanted to through the last school year because of all of the pandemic closures.

But as we think about learning outside of the classroom, are there particular tips and tricks when you maybe don't have the whole structure of school around you, but things you can do to still keep learning when it's maybe in a less formal space?

Yes, of course! And there's tons of things you can do. What I would say, though, is that... and we talked a little bit about this earlier—that a lot of learning is hard work, especially when you're enrolled in school and you have all this curriculum and you have to go through it and you only have this amount of time, and the most efficient way to learn it might be a little bit hard.

And so I would say that, you know, also during the summer, it is important to take a break and to recharge a bit and to be ready for the new school year. And I think it's healthy and good if the kids, you know, at the end of the summer, miss school and want to come back rather than being exhausted.

But learning doesn't have to be boring or hard work either. There's a lot of learning that can happen that is fun and that is an enjoyable activity. And so I would say, you know, especially during summer, try to find things to learn, to do that the students enjoy.

And there's another added benefit to this as well, and that is that especially if you let curiosity be an important driver, so you choose yourself what you want to learn, you follow your curiosity, if you do that, you actually learn more effectively as well. Because getting your curiosity satisfied leads to dopamine production in the brain, which strengthens memories in long-term memory. So curiosity can be a very strong driver for learning, and letting curiosity lead you is definitely recommended.

I love that! Are there ways that parents can help kind of nurture their kids' curiosity or, you know, help urge them to ask those questions and to be curious about the world?

I think if you can expose kids to novel things—novel environments—kids, most kids already are quite curious about things. So, I mean, there's lots of things that you can do to stimulate that. And also ask good questions.

So that, you know, instead of just going through content, or you know, for example, if you are discussing the First World War and the Second World War, and you might dive straight into something and say, "Okay, now we're going to cover how the Second World War came about." But if you instead try to lead up with an interesting question, for example, that the world was... most of Europe was in ruin and so many people had died, and countries were poor, and so many families have lost family members.

Uh, why did another major war break out? How could this happen when you were just barely recovered from another major war? So you try to find an angle to it where you can pose an interesting question, and then that curiosity is awakened. It becomes more enjoyable, and the learning is better as well, because once you've got curiosity, information sticks better.

Yeah, and adding really... also go ahead! Adding choice, you know. So you might... there might be certain things that you cannot change. So we got to spend more time on this, and that's just how it's got to be. But there's a thousand ways that you could do that.

So you could, for example, say, "Oh, you know, we should spend some time on this. Do you want to do this? Do you want to watch this documentary movie? Do you want to go to that museum? Do you want us to read this book together?" Giving kids some choice is also a great way to boost motivation for something.

So this time... well, I think that some of that might be some of the answer to this question! But, um, from Facebook, Moniebaziness oftentimes, it's a big jump for kids from elementary to middle school and then middle school to high school, where there's lots of rigorous homework and deadlines that kind of make them lose some of that interest in learning—maybe even some of that curiosity we've been talking about.

Um, how can you work through that, and what would be your advice?

I mean, this is a real challenge, and research all around the world shows that the more years kids are in school, the less motivated they become. So, you know, the starting point isn't a great one. But of course, there are many things that, that you can do. And research on motivation has come a long way too, for example, if you are surrounded by other people who are motivated for something, some of that motivation can transfer to you.

That's called motivation contagion in psychology. And so, you know, expressing some enthusiasm yourself with your kids for what you're learning, or teachers should keep this in mind too. If they are really excited about what they're teaching, they can actually increase the motivation in their students as well. So that's one thing.

We already talked about I'll just jump in and say that Sal always says the best way to communicate excitement about something is to actually be excited yourself about it!

Yeah, that totally makes sense! And I couldn't agree more, and neuroscience supports it. So I mean, that's great! We already talked about choice. Perhaps you cannot decide, you know, what we need to do, but you can give—but students cannot decide what to do, but you can give them choice in how to do it.

Um, and we also know that mastery is very important for learning—that students feel that they actually learn and they progress. So being a little bit... paying a little bit of attention to students' needs and making sure they get the help to master new things is also very important.

Because if students have too many bad experiences in a row, they might lose faith in themselves and their abilities to learn, and then they don't expand. They don't spend any effort, and then, of course, they don't learn. And then it's just a vicious circle, right?

Yeah, I talk a lot about in motivation research, there's this idea of if you think that you'll be successful when you do something, it's a lot more likely that you'll try to do that thing. And if you think you're not going to be successful, if you think you're going to fail, you're not going to be motivated to do that thing.

So it's expectancy of success, which of course kind of makes sense if you just think about it. Who wants to do something you think you're going to fail at? But if we can help kids feel like they're going to be successful, there's something there. And there's a neural underpinning for this as well, because what gives you this energy to expel effort, you know, to pursue a task is dopamine.

And dopamine is released in your brain; it gives you this just energy to act. But from an evolutionary perspective, it's not very efficient for us to be spending time on things that we will likely not be able to succeed with.

So to protect our survival, if you are trying to catch an eagle flying high up in the sky by throwing rocks, you'll probably soon see that you cannot, you know? That's not possible! You cannot throw rocks that high. And so your brain will want you to focus on something else, give up on that task, and do something else that is worthwhile. So it will cut the dopamine supply, and you will lose interest in pursuing that. And that's what happens when, in any type of activity, if we feel that we no longer believe that we can succeed, that dopamine level is quickly lowered in the brain, and then we lose the energy for it.

Whereas if we, through either self-motivation or we have someone around us that gives us a little bit of help or believes in us, if we get instilled that belief again that we can do it, dopamine production goes up, and we get that energy back, and then we actually succeed with it, because we also have the energy to pursue.

Fascinating! So we have a question about your book from Facebook. Manaz Levani says, "Is 'Learn Like a Pro' good for a fifth grader to read? If not, what would you recommend for young people to learn about how to learn?"

So, for very young people, I would recommend my co-author's other book, "Learning How to Learn." That book is especially written for kids and teens. It has very simple and friendly language and lots of fun metaphors. It's probably a book many kids can read themselves, but definitely, a book they can read together with their parents. So that would be my best bet for young learners.

Great! So it seems to me that a lot of these things that we're talking about are skills to practice the same way we practice other kinds of skills, like learning how to, you know, ride your bike or do those kinds of things. Is learning to learn... should we be having our kids practice learning behaviors in similar ways?

Yes, we should! And I mean, there's good evidence that some students are better at picking up good study techniques and good study habits on their own. They're experimenting a little bit; they're reflecting about how they learn, and whereas other students might be stuck with very ineffective ways to study.

But that doesn't mean that they can't improve, because they can also learn better techniques, but they need a little bit of extra help. And so learning as a skill is important, as well, and should be honed and sort of throughout life—not only during early years, but you know, learning challenges and context keeps changing throughout our lives.

But one of the things that can help you in any learning situation is being metacognitive, which is a very fancy word for thinking about how you are thinking. And that's... and I mean, research shows that some people do this more naturally. They take a step back and they, you know, look at how they're learning and they're asking themselves whether they are working in a smart way or whether they should change something.

But this is also something you can practice, you know, with your kids if you're learning together, and you can ask your kids questions about how they've been learning. That forces them to reflect. For example, you know, how are we going to learn this? What do you suggest? Why do you want to learn in that way?

And after you've had a session, you know, you can ask how did you think that this went? Is there something you would have done differently next time? So often in education, we're very good at asking questions about the content, but we should spend a little bit more time about the process of learning as well—how we are learning and reflecting and thinking about that too.

That definitely makes sense. And that process of, um, how did it go? It strikes me there's some potentially goal-setting that is maybe helpful there too—about at the beginning, what do you want to learn so that at the end you can say, "Did we get there?" And where that is, is that kind of goal-setting and reflection helpful based on the research that you've seen?

Yeah, that's normally part of it! So in the beginning, you, you know, set a goal, and you also try to understand what the success criteria is or what you sort of... what you need to learn. And then you try to then you select some tools or some strategies, and which techniques you should use depend completely on the learning challenge itself. One technique might be great for something but not work for something else.

And that's also why it's important to think of learning techniques as a kind of toolkit—a mental toolkit that you keep developing so that you have strong tools, but also the knowledge about when to apply them. And then typically at the end, you will look back and you will see whether you reached your goal and whether you selected the appropriate tool or whether you would want to do something different than another time.

That makes sense! So that seems like a good note to leave us on—a mental toolkit that you develop throughout your life.

Um, I like it! Thank you so much for joining us today. Uh, just brushed the surface! 30 minutes always goes by so fast! But for people who were interested, pick up the book "Learn Like a Pro" out today!

Um, we're actually going to have Dr. Oakley on on June 15th. She also has a book aimed particularly at teachers that is also interesting that we're going to talk to her about, so stay tuned for that. And we will see you next time! Thank you for joining us!